Instigator / Con
7
1540
rating
4
debates
100.0%
won
Topic
#437

"God is evil because the bible says most people will burn in hell forever."

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
0
Better sources
2
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
1

After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...

Raltar
Judges
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
43 debates / 689 votes
Voted
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
15,000
Voting period
One month
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Judges
Contender / Pro
4
1596
rating
42
debates
63.1%
won
Description

Several times, Debateart.com user Alec has made statements to the following effect;

"I think God is evil because the bible says most people will burn in hell forever. No one deserves to burn in hell forever."
(Source; https://www.debateart.com/debates/386/comment_links/3143)

Alec is not the only user who has advocated such a position. User Swagnarok has made similar allegations (https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/911/post_links/40474).

Based on these statements, I hereby challenge Alec to a debate to defend his claim.

CON - Raltar - AGAINST the idea that "God is evil because the bible says most people will burn in hell forever."

PRO - Alec - FOR the idea that "God is evil because the bible says most people will burn in hell forever."

I have asked Ramshutu to judge this debate. Ramshutu is widely considered one of the best and most mature voters on this site. Ramshutu is also a non-Christian, so his view will be unbiased and he will be difficult to convince of either position.

Criterion
Con
Tie
Pro
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:

1.) Oversimplification.

Con argues that the claim is an oversimplification - that various scholars have disagreed with what hell means and how it works.

Pro tersely dismisses this, by saying that he will attempt to prove his position. While Con is effectively making an appeal to authority here, and pro rightly states that he will make his argument and it should be viewed on merit, pros generalized dismissal of the point was incomplete. Pro needs to more thoroughly justify his position in light of both these arguments (why can he simply cite the bible, in view of the issues with language and interpretation), and later on cons point 5. Without that, con has laid reasonable ground work for a challenge on the grounds of interpretation.

2.) Not forever

Con offers two examples of interpretations of the bible that do not require eternal torture. This is a valid argument - however what weakens his position is that while he provided examples of groups who disagree with the contention, but no specific reasons why that point of view is valid.

Pro points this out, by questioning where the biblical support for these two positions. This was very terse response, but I think is a valid point.

3.) could you deserve to burn in Hell?

Con raises a very interesting argument - maybe some people may deserve to be tortured forever. It’s a subjective choice.

More specifically - he also argues that it’s not so much being sent to hell, as ending there based on life choices.

Pro responds by effectively calling this a euphemism: “we send ourselves”, really means “god sends us”. By referencing Stalin, pro attempts to bolster this case, by proving a human understandable example. I feel this falls a little short of actually addressing cons point, but not far.

In my view there is insufficient argument on behalf of pro on moralistic grounds, why he believes that such evil people shouldn’t be in Hell forever.

4.) God is not evil.

Cons contention here is that effectively while it may not make sense to us, that just because there is eternal torture, a supreme beings decision to do this in the context of the universe may not be arguable. He lays our reasonable ground work for this. In terms of pros rebuttal is effectively pointing out how this is unfair, and morally hypocritical.

5.) interpretation.

Cons final argument here is that the bible has to be interpreted in a number of contexts, with a number of translatative burdens, and it’s not always easy to draw specific conclusions from a few passages. He gives an example of one of pros points that I find valid, and argues this applies to all. Pro did not respond here, so in my view this has to stand.

6.) Biblical support for Pro.

Pro uses biblical passages to argue and justify his point. Con argues, mostly that this is interpretation (see point 5). I have to go with con on this as his position is largely unrefuted due to forfeits.

Summary: My critique (not part of my overall decision)

My feeling on this debate is that pro had the individually better arguments, but didn’t argue them in enough detail, or land any form of knock out blow required to override two rounds of forfeits and being unable to respond to con. I feel that pro could well have won had he not forfeited - but I there were several parts where he made a terse or minimal reply that I felt he needed to add meat to.

Con did well, but the major flaw in my view is that he discussed a lot of abstract topics, and examples - but didn’t support a specific framework - it would have been better to have raised a particular point of view, describe the moral “Hell framework”, and defended using the bible, and against pros generalized position, that would have been preferable.

What con did argue, he argued fairly well - but simply lacked specific examples he could cite to make it harder for pro.

If I had to make a decision based solely on R1 opening and rebuttal, I think pro edges this out - just - but as an overall debate I can’t overlook all the missed refutations and arguments due to forfeits. So I have to go with con on arguments.

In general, this feels like only half a debate, and didn’t end with a satisfactory conclusion.