Instigator / Pro

Devon

1482

rating

debates

41.67%

won

Topic

#4482

Abortion is murder

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After 3 votes and with 12 points ahead, the winner is...

Sir.Lancelot

Parameters

Publication date: 05.13.2023 01:14PM
Last updated date: 05.30.2023 03:38PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 5
Time for argument: Three days
Max argument characters: 10,000
Voting period: One week
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

Sir.Lancelot

1587

rating

182

debates

55.77%

won

Description

I will be arguing that abortion is murder and con will argue against it. Made this debate for Sir.Lancelot. If Sir.Lancelot is unable to accept at this time and I debate someone else then that's fine. Me and Sir will debate about this another time.

Round 1

Devon

05.13.2023 02:26PM

Pro

Opening

Let's establish some definitions:

Abortion: the deliberate termination of a human pregnancy, most often performed during the first 28 weeks of pregnancy.

Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

A fetus is still a human, a clump of cells and abortion is premeditated.

There are certain parts of the country where abortion is illegal. Murder is also illegal so without a doubt abortion is murder.

Countries Where Abortion Is Illegal 2023 (worldpopulationreview.com)

Will extend further arguments in future rounds in response to Con.

Sir.Lancelot

05.13.2023 03:44PM

Con

But then rises the question, alive in what way?

Skin cells are alive and you kill them everyday. Are you guilty of murder?

The answer to the major question is that the term ‘life’ is misleading. Human fetuses are alive in the same concept of cells, not sentient creatures.

They behave like cells, not like organisms.

https://lozierinstitute.org/a-scientific-view-of-when-life-begins/

Also, there is nothing remotely “human” about a brainless body.

Round 2

Devon

05.13.2023 06:04PM

Pro

Skin cells are alive and you kill them everyday. Are you guilty of murder?

That's not the same thing. That's like a snake shedding it's skin. Not murder at all. A fetus is made up of cells, not skin cells.

Human fetuses are alive in the same concept of cells, not sentient creatures.

Me and you are alive and made up of cells too.

They behave like cells, not like organisms.

You do know organisms are made up of cells right? Cells are organisms.

Also, there is nothing remotely “human” about a brainless body.

fetus definition: an offspring of a human or other mammal in the stages of prenatal development that follow the embryo stage. Therefore a fetus is a human and the brain develops at the 3rd week even before that life begins at conception.

Babies deserve to live. If you don't want a baby you can just put him/her up for adoption.

Sir.Lancelot

05.16.2023 10:20AM

Con

See? Not murder.

Vote Con!

Round 3

Devon

05.17.2023 03:53AM

Pro

What did I say that made you say that?

You didnt prove anything and we have a few more rounds to go so I'll await a rebuttal if you have one. Abortion is murder per my round 1

Sir.Lancelot

05.17.2023 07:35AM

Con

Extend.

Round 4

Devon

05.19.2023 10:03PM

Pro

No matter how one looks at it, abortion is murder. The science of embryology states that from the moment of conception, a human being is formed. The DNA it has is not only human DNA but the DNA of an individual distinct from that of either parent. In forensic criminology DNA is used to distinguish one person from another. So the DNA of an embryo indicates that the embryo is a person. To aid a person who engages in abortion or promotes abortion makes one an accessory to murder.

Sir.Lancelot

05.19.2023 10:15PM

Con

A fetus is still a human, a clump of cells and abortion is premeditated.

Since most intimate acts lead to unintended consequences whereby a woman who is unwilling to birth a child because she is not financially capable or doesn’t want it, she usually seeks out an abortion.

Due to this being very common, I’ll say that the majority of abortion cases are a result of birth control failure or a burst in the condom.

Thus as a cause, the effect of an abortion in this example is not premeditated, nor is it done with the intention of malice.

fetus definition: an offspring of a human or other mammal in the stages of prenatal development that follow the embryo stage. Therefore a fetus is a human and the brain develops at the 3rd week even before that life begins at conception.

We realize a fetus is human from the concept of scientific terminology. It is incredibly misleading to apply this same term and definition in discussions of morals and ethics. Which is why I call the term meaningless.

Here is where I agree with Pro, that conception is the beginning of life. But it’s not life in the conventional sense. The fetus at this point has more in common with a cell than a fully grown human being or even a newborn. It hasn’t advanced to the point that we can refer to it as a ‘person.’

Sentience doesn’t start until the 18th week of the pregnancy and the abortion time-limit has expired by this point, meaning doctors won’t perform the procedure.

Human consciousness is completely non-existent within the early stages of a pregnancy and the only time an abortion is allowed.

Round 5

Devon

05.22.2023 10:15PM

Pro

Forfeited

Sir.Lancelot

05.22.2023 10:56PM

Con

#10

Extend.

The End.

Bella3sp

05.19.2023 02:33PM

I can't tell if con is using your fetus definition against you. It's actually funny, but something that can cost you if not clarified.

Barney

05.27.2023 07:21PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Con showed that it was not premeditated (as pro's definitions required) due to accidental pregnancy, at which point pro dropped out of the debate leaving this unchallenged.

Bella3sp

05.24.2023 05:31PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Wasn't completely sure on voting on this due to my biased opinion, but here we go. Any questions, mention or message me.

This debate is mainly about, is the 'soon-to-be human' or in pro's case, the 'human' an actual human being?

Round 1-3:
Pro starts off semi weak with his argument that abortion is illegal in some places. I expected a bit more of a further argument from the beginning but that's alright. Con counters this without arguing the majority by saying, are these 'clumps of cells' human? And if we scratch off multiple skin cells per day, are we murderers? Pro counters this by saying basically we are all made of cells, fetus cells are not skin cells and stating the fetus definition. The end process leaves something dangerous. In his definition, he mentions "mammal". Which con immediately recognizes and states it as "not murder". However, I won't judge this significantly because con never elaborates. What is abortion? Does this apply to mammals, abortion wise? Do animals have abortions? What is the majority of animals that get abortions versus humans if so? Then from there, nothing happens until round four.

Round four:
Pro seemingly puts their conclusion in round four stating the significance of DNA. They state from the beginning of conception a human being is being formed. They further this by saying that the DNA of an embryo proves they are an individual person. Con counters by really just saying they have more in common with cells.

Since pro says fetuses are made of cells, and doesn't explain what cells besides DNA cells…

I'm left with the impression that even with these DNA cells, they (embryos or fetus) have more in common with cells based on their behaviors, etc.. Even though con didn't explain how they are more related to cells or in which ways, it's never countered due to pro's forfeit.

ARGUMENTS to Con.

Sources are iffy on pro's side.

Pro made a significant error with their website. Usually judges tend to skip over the sources, but I checked it out because nothing was quite cited. Pro's website actually shows that the majority of abortions are legal, they show the reason an abortion is being issued and why making abortions illegal would negatively affect people. Rather helping pro's case, this goes towards cons. For that reason, I'm giving this to con.

SOURCES to Con.

LEGIBILITY: All good from both sides, tie.

CONDUCT: For the most part conduct was alright, only one disappearance. I'll still give this overall a tie.

Mainly guys, I just wish there was more elaboration in general. What is abortion? It wasn't even defined. If you claim something such as mammals have abortions therefore it's not always murder, I need to know abortions are, can animals even be included? How are fetuses or embryos more related to cells than humans? In which ways?

Slainte

05.24.2023 04:58PM

Criterion

Pro

Tie

Con

Points

Better arguments

3 point(s)

Better sources

2 point(s)

Better legibility

1 point(s)

Better conduct

1 point(s)

Reason:

Not the most robust debate.

Pro failed to meet their BoP. They define murder as: "Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another."

Pro never addresses laws that permit abortion and draws a complete conclusion that because death occurs, that means it is murder. This goes against Pro's own definitions. Pro had a huge hurdle to jump over, and never came close to it.