All psychoactive substances should be legalized for adults to purchase and use, sold from dispensaries in a regulated fashion as we do with alcohol.
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
After 4 votes and with 7 points ahead, the winner is...
- Publication date
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- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 10,500
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
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I contend that all drugs, from heroin to cannabis should be legalized and sold in dispensaries like alcohol and nicotine are today.
(Only Mps1213 can accept.)
- Caffeine
- Xylazine
- Fentanyl
- 4-ANPP
- 4-Fluorofentanyl
- Heroin
- Phenethyl 4-ANPP
- Fentanyl
- Xylazine
- 4-ANPP
- 4-Fluorofentanyl
- Despropionyl-4-fluorofentanyl
- Phenethyl 4-ANPP
- “A Free Market for all drugs, like drugs and cigarettes.”
- A government-run or heavily regulated system of drug distribution
- A system where health care professionals distribute the drugs.”
- Legalizing drugs would be good for society.
- That the legalization & regulation of drugs can be done safely without backfiring.
- That Drug Prohibition is a restriction on people’s freedom.
- crack cocaine
- methylphenidate (Ritalin)
- ephedrine
- MDMA (ecstasy)
- peyote (mescaline)
- LSD blotter
- psilocybin mushroom (Psilocybe cubensis)
- Salvia divinorum
- diphenhydramine (Benadryl)
- Amanita muscaria mushroom
- Tylenol 3 (contains codeine)
- codeine with muscle relaxant
- pipe tobacco
- bupropion (Zyban)
- marijuana
- hashish
- Desflurane (common)
- Enflurane (largely discontinued)
- Halothane (inexpensive, discontinued)
- Isoflurane (common)
- Methoxyflurane
- Nitrous oxide
- Sevoflurane (common)
- Xenon (rarely used)
- “Almost 21 million Americans have at least 1 addiction, yet only 10% of them receive treatment.”
- “Drug overdose deaths have more than tripled since 1990.”
- “Alcohol and drug addiction cost the US economy over $600 billion every year.” 1
- For example, snorting cocaine through the nose can damage nasal cartilage, and taking opiates can lead to opiate-induced constipation, a chronic and potentially fatal form of constipation if a person does not receive treatment. Regular tobacco use can cause a range of cancers and smoking methamphetamine might fuel a severe form of dental decay known as “meth mouth”.
- On average, 115 people in the United States die every day by overdosing on opioid painkillers.
“Ok thank you Lancelot for actually giving a response. I do not wish for the government to run this legalization change. However it does need to be regulated just like alcohol is. Not necessarily heavily regulated, but distribution and production needs to meet quality standards like alcohol does.I’ll break down your argument piece by piece.”
- Regulations would affect the quality of a product in a privatized economy.
- Companies may struggle to meet the regulations.
- Taxation would be going into regulations that may not necessarily be producing any good.
- Drug Cartels can assume enough power that they control the government, and impose their own regulations on competitors to get rid of the competition.
- Pro is unclear about how many regulations or what kind of regulations need to be imposed.
“What is your evidence for this? You didn’t cite any statistics or reason to believe this. Therefore it is responsible to treat this as just an assumption that has no evidence to support it. Even the study you cite, provides no statistics or reason to make that claim. It’s just making some random assumption they provide no evidence for. That’s useless in this topic”
“Also the costs of addiction means nothing about the percentage of total drug users that are addicts. Especially as inflation rises and healthcare costs balloon out of control. That has nothing to do with this conversation.Afterwards you begin bringing up the risks and death statistics with these drugs. Why are you bringing these up, as a way to argue for keeping drugs illegal, but not speaking about how tobacco kills more people a year than all other drugs combined? Why should that be legal? There’s no sound argument that safety is what’s important in this topic. After all we are allowed to sky dive, own guns, ride motorcycles, hike mountains, drink alcohol, And smoke tobacco. Safety clearly isn’t important to our government and unless you’re willing to stay philosophically consistent, it shouldn’t matter to you.”
- What kinds of licensing are required to obtain/manufacture/sell drugs? How much does the licensing cost?
- What kinds of education/training is needed to be fully licensed, how many years will this take and how much will this cost?
- What kinds of regulations will be imposed, and how much taxation will be required to make sure that companies are keeping up with the policies?
““The National Institute of Drug Abuse (NIDA) reports that 80% of heroin users first used, and then misused, prescription opioids. The reverse is not true; not all people who use prescription opioids move to heroin. According to the National Survey of Drug Use and Health, less than 4% of people who had misused prescription pain medicines started using heroin.”“Approximately 30% of patients are misusing opioids (taking more than directed, taking medications not prescribed to themselves), and 10% of patients are addicted. For patients who are prescribed opioids for more than 45 days, one in ten develop a substance use disorder from prescription use.”So explain to me how anything you’ve claimed, any of the evidence you’ve provided, breaks what the NIH has reported with drug use? It doesn’t. Only 10-20% of drug users are addicts. That’s the case with every drug. From alcohol to heroin.I never denied the results of addiction are severe and very damaging. That’s not debatable. However the fact remains that addiction is statistically unlikely across all classes of drugs. There are also very clear ore determining factors for addiction. It revolves around mental health disorders, unrealistic expectations being put on someone, trauma, emotional crises, job loss, and poverty. Which is why you see drug addiction rates in poor communities higher, even though drug use rates are higher in upper class communities. The evidence for genetics playing a role in addiction is very loose. All of the evidence tends to point towards the environment being the determining factor in those situations. If you grow up with an addict, you are more likely to be an addict. However if you have a parent that is an addict, and the child is separated from them, they are far less likely to become an addict. The only way you are able to say it is genetic, is if the parents pass down mental disorders as a whole.this one scientific article debunks just about every claim you’ve made in your entire argument. This is published in the most renown and prestigious science journal in the world. Nature.”
“So again these reports you’re citing are just making claims and have no evidence to support them. They are just saying what sounds good. Many people, organizations, scientists, are very anti-drug and will twist and bend science to fit their narrative. Nothing you said holds up to the actual evidence posted by NIDA or the NIH. Which are far more useful with their research and data reports considering it’s the only thing they do.”
"Drug Cartels can assume enough power that they control the government, and impose their own regulations on competitors to get rid of the competition."There is no evidence to support the claim that the drug cartels could control our government.
"Psychoactive substances are easier to abuse than any of the previous three and will require more government enforcement & maintenance to reduce danger."This is a major pet peeve of mine. Alcohol, nicotine, and caffeine are psychoactive substances. And alcohol and tobacco kill more people a year than all other drugs combined, and by a huge margin. So to separate alcohol and nicotine from other psychoactive substances, you have to draw some imaginary line between what separates them. That line doesn't exist and is usually morally based. Meaning people don't see doing alcohol as morally wrong, but they see using heroin as morally wrong. If you look at toxicity, heroin is far safer than alcohol. If you look at side effects, heroin is far better than alcohol. If you look at the feeling users have the next day after heavy use, heroin is far safer than alcohol. So any line you attempt to draw between alcohol and these other substances will not make sense and will easily be ripped apart by anyone who has studied pharmacology as long as I have. If you would like to get into the pharmacology aspect of this debate in the coming rounds, just say the word. So going forward, unless you have a solid reason to separate alcohol and tobacco from other drugs, don't. They're all psychoactive substances, they can all cause addiction, they can all cause death. There is no difference aside from their unique pharmacological properties, outside of a few specific drugs, the pharmacological aspects are rarely inherently harmful. That's why they are used by so many people, because they don't harm most of the users. They don't harm the users at all if the user is taking the drug responsibly.
- Prices of drugs were raised at this time and the costs made them inaccessible. The price inflation was deliberate and happened before the legalization, and the crime rate was already steadily decreasing.
- More rehab facilities formed before legalization, using a more advanced approach to the treatment of addiction which also had a profound impact.
- Law enforcement had already busted the biggest drug manufacturing companies, which ultimately stopped the supply. It is these busts that influenced the legalization law.
I will admit that I have a bias towards Pro in this conversation. However, the resolution was really teed up for Con to hit this out of the park. All Con needed to do was find two drugs, that clearly should not be legalized, and those drugs could even be theoretical. If a newly discovered drug has a psychoactive effect that will lead to permanent brain damage 72% of the time it should not be legalized. The catch-all statement of "all" was a huge mountain to climb, and I had no idea how Pro would do it.
Pro did not do it. However, Con never put Pro away. Con talked in circles about addiction issues and overall social weight. And therein contradicted himself, explaining how the majority of addicts are high-functioning productive members of society. Con speculated a few times on a variety of issues and while being creative, it really undermined his case when Pro pointed out the lack of evidence. In the balance of the arguments, Pro was crisper, rebutted well, and painted a better picture. Pro did not deal with the All part of the reso very well, however, Con did not deal with it at all.
I am surprised Pro did not look at the regulatory framework in Canada for cannabis and reverted to Portugal and France, which are decriminalized and unregulated.
Both debaters argued with a total view passion of the concept, and Con lost the opportunity of the individual silver bullet to snipe a win. Con is usually very good at identifying these trap elements, so I feel that the passion for the subject clouded the view of the actual resolution. Pro did not forfeit any rounds and deserves the conduct point. I think this debate brought up a bunch of secondary small debate subjects, and I would be happy to participate in any of those.
Thank you for the great content, and the opportunity to give my opinion. I appreciate it.
I think when it comes to weighing what issues are most important in this debate, I'm just not getting enough reason to weigh issues of freedom/liberty over more tangible harms. I know a large part of Pro's argument comes from the position that harms are worse with drugs that are currently legal, and while I take his point, I don't think that does anything to move the needle. I can acknowledge that there are hypocrisies in existing drug policies and see that legalization of these particular drugs is still damaging, even if the harms they cause are less than the harms of currently legal drugs like alcohol and tobacco. In fact, the argument could have been made that their legalization is part of the reason they're so harmful, and that piling on with more legal drugs doesn't yield a positive impact just because those drugs cause lesser harms.
Still, there's a lot to take in here with regards to the actual harms of these drugs, and I think both sides could have done a better job in this department. Pro argues extensively about the chemistry of these drugs, and while that point is interesting, I don't think it does much for his position except limit the degree of harm caused by these drugs, assuming that they're not adulterated. I think the better point is that those adulterants are only likely to be in these drugs currently because they are illegal, i.e. the chief cause of harm is the adulterants and legalizing them removes those adulterants. Pro also argues that legalization reduces the number of instances where law enforcement actively utilizes drug laws to inflict harms by planting drugs or just securing larger prison sentences that aren't warranted. I think the latter could use more explanation (there are good points there but Pro doesn't spend much time fleshing them out), but the former is decent, albeit limited in actual quantity of cases to a couple of examples.
Con's argument to this effect is initially strong, arguing that an increase in the number of people using these drugs (both sides kind of just assume that will happen) yields an increase in the number of addicts and he shows pretty clearly that addiction is bad. I don't think he's winning on the numbers of addicts, and while the adolescent point initially looks like it could bolster it, the argument just seems to disappear after R2. The trouble with this argument is that, while I buy that the number of addicts would increase, it's more difficult to buy that their circumstances would be anywhere near as bad as they are now with the presence of adulterants. I think when Con drops the issue of adulterants, it kind of sinks the whole argument that more addicts is worse than leaving these drugs illegal, mainly because the vast majority of harms are associated with the adulterants, not the addiction (bad though that is). I think Pro also makes the point well that different levels of addiction/abuse make that harm more variable than Con lets on. I think what could potentially have bolstered this point the most was the argument about regulation or lack thereof. I don't love the fact that Pro is still defining how his system would work all the way out in R3, and some of his claims about how the system would function seem to rely on some pretty loose assumptions of how these drugs would enter the market and be regulated. I think there was room to argue that this system might not be much better than the existing black market, relying on sufficient chemists to monitor marketed products and the assumption that the drug companies peddling them would not modify the recipe in ways that might not be easily caught, introducing their own adulterants. There just isn't enough of an argument here, though - Con keeps his points too general to the failures of a hybridized system rather than engaging with the specifics of Pro's system. I also just don't buy that cartels would assume substantial control over the government. That scenario needed more warrants and evidence for what happens in a legal system.
Overall, while Pro did forfeit a round (hence Conduct), I think he's winning on bigger issues of safe use of drugs in the absence of black market adulterants and preventing abuses of the legal system that cost lives. While Con has some solid points about addiction, they just don't gain the kind of steam they need to overcome these issues.
AHHHHHGHHH! I so wanted to give this debate to con, I was looking and looking for a way to a W and just couldn't connect enough dots to do it.
Here are the issues I had with COn's arguments:
1) Resolution was stated as: "I am arguing for Drug Prohibition and defending that all psychoactive substances should not be legalized."
This a ridiculously constrictive constraint as using the word ALL includes Alcohol, which would mean arguing for the prohibition of Alcohol as well.
Now, I could overlook this because COn made voluminous arguments about addiction and the reason for the prohibition of psychoactive drugs should be based on problems arising from addiction. So okay, I can generally assume con meant to say "all highly addictive psychoactive substances" Con makes some great arguments about addiction and uses great sources. If only this was the only hurdle for Con...
2) Con then states "Psychoactive substances are easier to abuse than any of the previous three and will require more government enforcement & maintenance to reduce danger."
The key word here is "danger." Pro has an incredibly easy time defeating this argument by simply citing statistics of a less addictive drug, Alcohol, as being more deadly and dangerous.
What Con could have argued instead would be that the addiction of a psychoactive drug prevents a person from understanding the risks, and loses the cognitive freedom to choose. Losing mental freedom affects the quality of life, and would not be so easily countered with the death statistics of Alcohol. The "dangers" would then be identified in opportunity costs associated with the loss of freedom. Con never made this connection.
Pro easily showed the dangers of the manufacture of toxic unregulated drugs, so he had that as a winning argument. He did make a mistake comparing drug statistics with France and Portugal instead of using a competing study within the USA Studies from other countries frequently fall into the apples-and-oranges trap as there are many other variables at play when it comes to drug use and drug culture. So Pro lost that argument and the source point. Pro ends up winning the whole shebang at the end with the: "alcohol and tobacco kill more people a year than all other drugs combined, and by a huge margin"
Sources to Con, Arguments to Pro.
Two days left and no votes so far. Here goes.
Both sides start off making competing claims about the effects of legalization. I can accept that making drugs illegal means that more people will be arrested, though it's unclear how harmful all of these drugs will be. The word "all" in the resolution makes me think that Con is best off picking a few drugs and showing the harms of legalizing those (date rape drugs, for example). Pro responds to the studies given, arguing that addiction itself is not the issue but that contamination is. I end up not completely certain about whether legalization + regulation would save lives, but that leaves the impact of the number of people arrested, which gives this debate to Pro. I also think some of Pro's points were better supported with research. While Con had a number of counters, a number of them were speculative, such as poking holes in a potential regulatory system without showing why those problems are likely to arise.
The only debate I’m willing to have on here is really to do with drug prohibition. I am a geoscience major and have studied climate change and weather, but my area of expertise in this type of setting is certainly drugs and pharmacology.
Sure. I think we are on the same side of a few fences. Lets message and see what we can come up with.
Would you like to have a debate with me?
Sorry for the late response. I haven't actually seen much research on legalization, but it sounds interesting. Unfortunately, I'm on vacation and my internet is on and off. Once that gets sorted out, I'll take a look.
I am talking about legalization same way alcohol and cannabis are sold.
Are you referring to decriminalization or legalization? Those are different things.
That would actually be a REALLY fascinating debate. (Having witnessed both Savant and Mps's debates.)
Would you like to set up a debate between us? With the title and resolution of your choosing as long as it revolves around drug decriminalization?
I think it’s honestly much easier to argue for legalization of a drug like heroin for example than it is alcohol in terms of safety and pharmacology.
I'm referring to the more dangerous ones that are already illegal, not more common drugs like alcohol. I think it would be hard to give someone alcohol without them knowing, as it has a distinctive taste. Also, I'm not sure how commonly GHB and rohypnol are used ethically. (There are more ethical alternatives that achieve similar enjoyment.) A lot more people would miss alcohol if it was banned, so it's not an equal comparison.
You can make the case for legalizing them (they're used legally in other countries), but I think it's harder than the case for alcohol or marijuana.
Thanks for the vote, however even though you voted for me I must combat something you said. “Date rape drugs for example” alcohol is the most “dare rape” drug on earth. Date rape isn’t a class of drugs. What drugs are you talking about exactly? GHB? Xanax? GHB is made by our own bodies and is a wonderfully enjoyable drug. Xanax is used for many different things and is also very enjoyable. There is no such thing as a date rape drug. Benzodiazepines are the ones usually used for that type of behavior, outside of alcohol. But the vast, vast majority of people use those drugs to enjoy their night or life.
Thx for the vote!
I was thinking more about picking a particular substance, like ghb or rohypnol. Though I suppose mps could argue that there's no point in banning them so long as the other drugs you listed are still available to attackers.
<3.
Would you guys like to vote on this?
It's a medium to slightly long read.
Thanks for your vote, I have no issue with it.
But if I used the argument about date-rape drugs, Mps would have easily countered it because it's such a loose category that it could refer to any substance that makes you lose consciousness. For instance, ketamine, PCP, alcohol, Xanax, morphine, etc all considered date rape drugs.
I'll try to vote on this one if I have enough downtime.
Sure, I'll start working on one. Always interested in this topic.
Np homie
Thanks man.
I'll create 3 separate troll debates with 12 hours response time. As long as you don't forfeit for any of them, I can reinstate your voting privileges.
Even if you type one word response, it counts.
Drop a vote?
I used to be able to vote, then they made changes and I couldn't, haven't bothered to find out why, I have faith in Sir Lancelot to help me.
I have challenged a lot of people to debate but no takers. I think the genius thing scares them off :)
I'm pretty busy with work, I keep forfeiting because there isn't enough time, give me 24 hours next time so I don't miss it, thanks bud.
Check the qualifications. It specifically says no forfeited rounds in order to get voting rights, and you forfeited 2/3 debates.
^^^^^ "Finish 3 debates with an open voting system without forfeiting rounds."
Looks like I still can't vote
Thanks, guys!
I appreciate it
Can't promise but I'll give it a shot in the next week. I always enjoy reading your debates.
I will. I am making my way through it. BTW thanks for the vote, and you brought up a fair point with me saying cowardly. Point taken.
Would you guys like to vote?
Should be able to get to this this weekend.
This debate was much, much better from both people including myself. Give a vote on thi one too when you get the time.
Thanks for the discussion, Mps.
When I recreate this argument, I’ll be Pro this time and see if I can win against someone random by defending legalization.
The worst part is I typed out a full response lmao. Just got up to do something and didn’t come back in time.
Basically what you said about alcohol being safer and easier to manage isn’t true. Heroin is far safer toxicologically than alcohol. So is ketamine, LSD, Oxycodone, psilocybin, etc. so my response was basically just saying that.
All good bro.
Happens to me too. 😂
My bad man, totally forgot about this.
What are your opinions on the subject?
Absolutely, I'll read through the debate on completion and vote my decision.
Hopefully Lancelot debates me through the final round this time. I would appreciate it if you weigh in and judge the end the debate, after our conversations. If Lancelot actually comes with some ammunition on this one, everyone who reads the debate could learn a lot.
Go on ahead
Interested?
I made myself Con.