Instigator / Pro
10
1587
rating
182
debates
55.77%
won
Topic
#4677
THBT: On balance, Logan Paul should return to Japan to atone for his actions.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
9
Better sources
4
6
Better legibility
3
3
Better conduct
3
3
After 3 votes and with 11 points ahead, the winner is...
Bella3sp
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Rated
- Number of rounds
- 3
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 10,500
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
- Minimal rating
- None
Contender / Con
21
1524
rating
53
debates
75.47%
won
Description
On balance, Logan Paul should return to Japan to atone for his actions.
Round 1
Pro
#1
Origin Story
In December 2017, the content creator Logan Paul visited Japan with his friends. After having massively disrespected the culture by doing the following.:
- Running around town screaming at pedestrians.
- Assaulting people by throwing a toy at them.
- Purchasing raw squid and fish, then waving it in people’s faces. Going into clothing stores and messing up the shirts. Then leaving the fish and squid on the back of a taxi vehicle.
- Walking into a store, buying a gameboy, and then throwing it on the ground.
Unfortunately, this is not the worst of it. On December 31st, Logan and his team went through Japan Suicide Forest and filmed the dead body of a suicide victim and was insensitive about a very serious matter, cracking jokes and laughing about it.
Logan Paul’s Cancellation
Within the start of the year 2018, many major businesses were dropping Logan’s brand because of the video that sparked controversy. People were calling out Logan Paul for his actions.
Which led to him creating this apology video.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwZT7T-TXT0
It got so bad that he had to step back from YouTube for a while because it was affecting his mental health.
Redemption Arc
Logan Paul then created the following video on February 4th, 2018 where he reflected on his actions and announced he was donating money to plenty of charities for suicide prevention. This was the beginning of Logan’s redemption arc. Which would eventually start a permanent change in not just the man himself, but his content.
Logan Paul should return to Japan
- If Logan is truly sincere about becoming a better person, he must return to right his wrongs.
- Japan has a high suicide ratio, so he should use his wealth to lessen this.
- Returning to Japan might be bad for his image at first, but would have the potential to show he is being authentic.
Con
#2
Thanks Sir.Lancelot,
Point
Case
In this case, I will be providing the following to support my burden:
- Logan Paul has already apologized, publicly, so going back to Japan is unnecessary
- Trying to atone will not change the problems Logan Paul created, therefore unnecessary
- Other people in the world have done similar actions but they do not travel back to an area to atone
- He has proven himself throughout the year gap with this issue
- Trying to come back to atone, with his actions, may lead to a issue
- Atoning does nothing but possibly bringing the past issue back
Burden
This is shared between both users.
Pro must prove Logan Paul should return to Japan to atone for his actions.
Con must prove why Logan Paul should not return to Japan to atone for his actions.
Main
Before I begin with my contentions, I want to identify a few things:
- How would Logan Paul atone, in japan, that he hasn't already done?
- Would atoning do anything in general?
- Would this even give a good impact?
Contentions
Logan Paul's apology and steps
Apology
Logan Paul had already made a public apology, not just to his viewers, but to the people of Japan as well. Though some people may not of liked his apology, what more could he do? He has apologized, and whether people take that apology or not doesn't matter. What would atoning to, that was any different from his apology made?
Logan's apology to the situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwZT7T-TXT0
Logan had nothing and could do nothing to reverse what he had done and atoning for his actions around five years later would make no difference.
Steps
But not just regarding his apology, he has also created steps towards suicide awareness.
Logan's steps he made towards suicide awareness in order to atone for his actions regarding the situation.
As said: "In his seven-minute comeback video, Paul meets activists and a suicide survivor, while pledging to donate $1m (£700,000) to prevention groups."
Harmful affects
If Logan Paul is to bring up the issue again, it could cause more severe issues for his mental health once again.
So, not only would atoning be doing quite literally almost nothing for him positively, but it would be affected his mental health.
All of what I am saying is prediction, as of regarding the hate he would receive. But based on his apology video and the hate comments he received, all the evidence leads to more negative comments.
Review
Now we are left with the impression (on my side) of a few things.
- Has he already atoned enough?
- Does he need to particularly go back to Japan to atone, if atoning at all?
- What would returning back to Japan to atoning do?
- Would atoning in Japan be negative or positive?
- In terms of should, should he really? Is it really an obligation?
All of these should, throughout the debate be cleared to fully understand the burden "should". And maybe even more questions as it comes.
Rebuttals:
I believe that pro practically only has one contention that supports his burden.
While he does state what Logan Paul has done, aka why he should apologize, there is only one contention that really sums it up. So, let's focus there.
- (1) If Logan is truly sincere about becoming a better person, he must return to right his wrongs.
- (2) Japan has a high suicide ratio, so he should use his wealth to lessen this.
- (3) Returning to Japan might be bad for his image at first, but would have the potential to show he is being authentic.
1. As my contentions state, he has already made a public apology and steps going forward to suicide protection. At the end of the day, what else is he going to do?
2. Logan Paul is not, like everyone else in the world, required to donate his money. His money is his own, regardless of his mistakes. Such as Elon Musk, just because Japan has high suicide ratio, doesn't mean he has to donate to them. That's his money.
^ Also this wouldn't require you to go back to Japan to do.
3. He has already shown potential. Flying back to Japan may only cause trouble.
----
Specifically dealing with "should" and "atone"
As for what would be best in this situation it would be overal better to leave it. Bringing it back up would stir the media to it's core again, it wouldn't make sense.
Further, in terms of atoning, he already has. He has made a public apology and even supported a cause, which was not needed, in order to help the issue he laughed about. There is no reason to specifically go to Japan to "atone".
---
Next round
I think pro should provide examples of what Logan Paul would do to atone for his actions in Japan. Otherwise, we are left with something broad.
As of right now, I see some mentions of donating, but he already has. If we leave it broad, I believe it would be harder for the judges.
So, I'll leave it to pro from here.
Round 2
Pro
#3
Thanks for accepting, Bella3sp!
I’ll begin this round with a harsh and painful lesson that Logan Paul needs to learn.
Logan Paul should return to Japan for several reasons.:
- Redemption is transactional. Something that must be earned. An apology isn’t going to cut it, nor should we cut him some slack.
- Logan Paul’s actions have hurt American streamers trying to make a living in Japan by harming their reputation in the country.
Because of Logan’s mistakes, Japan's perception of Americans is worse than ever.
Rebuttals
“Other people in the world have done similar actions but they do not travel back to an area to atone”
Because the damage they have done is irreparable and their only option at that point is to move on. Logan is in a position of power and wealth to actually take action and contribute some good.
“He has proven himself throughout the year gap with this issue”
Proven himself how? His actions to good causes seem to be coming from a place of maintaining his good image and trying to save face than from an authentic position of true regret & remorse.
Rumor has it that he’s scammed his fans out of billions of dollars, casting doubt on whether or not he really has changed.
“Trying to come back to atone, with his actions, may lead to a issueAtoning does nothing but possibly bringing the past issue back””
What past issue, the scrutiny?
If his actions to try and correct the past lead to it having worse circumstances, then it definitely stands that there are issues that haven’t been completely resolved.
The only person likely to bear the burden of this karma is Logan Paul and he hasn’t faced the consequences of his actions which is something he must endure to be worthy of redemption. He has defaced property, disrespected citizens, and made a mockery of their culture and the dead. If anything, he got off easy.
- “How would Logan Paul atone, in japan, that he hasn't already done?
- Would atoning do anything in general?
- Would this even give a good impact?”
By helping businesses grow, offering to teach English, donating to charities, and raising cultural awareness of suicide in Japan will definitely foster positive change. Not only the citizens of Japan, but for Logan Paul’s image, and the image of American tourists who go to Japan.
“Harmful affectsIf Logan Paul is to bring up the issue again, it could cause more severe issues for his mental health once again.So, not only would atoning be doing quite literally almost nothing for him positively, but it would be affected his mental health.All of what I am saying is prediction, as of regarding the hate he would receive. But based on his apology video and the hate comments he received, all the evidence leads to more negative comments.”
Logan Paul and his team publicly filmed the dead body of a suicide victim who hung himself, and Logan laughed. The person he mocked had probably suffered worse than whatever Logan will likely endure. Logan does not deserve the privilege of being able to avoid facing his actions.
To do the right thing, Logan Paul must prioritize his duty to helping the Japanese people over his desire to avoid criticism.
“1. As my contentions state, he has already made a public apology and steps going forward to suicide protection. At the end of the day, what else is he going to do?2. Logan Paul is not, like everyone else in the world, required to donate his money. His money is his own, regardless of his mistakes. Such as Elon Musk, just because Japan has high suicide ratio, doesn't mean he has to donate to them. That's his money.^ Also this wouldn't require you to go back to Japan to do.3. He has already shown potential. Flying back to Japan may only cause trouble.”
- Not be a terrible person. His actions going forward are good, but not sufficient enough to undo the damage he has caused. He must do more good to right the wrongs he committed.
- The resolution is conditional. Logan should return to Japan, but only to be redeemed. Logan Paul is not required to donate his money, it is his. But then he is not entitled to redemption, nor is he able to objectively claim that he has become a better person.
- Demonstrating potential is meaningless. It’s the same as saying he has the possibility to change. The possibility to change is irrelevant if he refuses to take the opportunity when it’s presented to him.
Con
#4
Reviewing pros summary:
I’ll begin this round with a harsh and painful lesson that Logan Paul needs to learn.Logan Paul should return to Japan for several reasons.:
- Redemption is transactional. Something that must be earned. An apology isn’t going to cut it, nor should we cut him some slack.
- Logan Paul’s actions have hurt American streamers trying to make a living in Japan by harming their reputation in the country.
Because of Logan’s mistakes, Japan's perception of Americans is worse than ever.
If an apology won't cut it, what will? And if an apology won't cut it for people, will anything?
Also considering that he did support a cause.
As of Logan's mistakes, do you have anything showing direct source (close) to him being the impression?
For staters, i'm sure many people didn't know of that issue and i'm sure many people have done things in Japan that damaged how Japan viewed American's. However, I don't see them returning to Japan or being mentioned for their mistakes.
I'm also sure many people in Japan aren't like, "An American vlogger- they are just like Logan Paul".
And your standards of amends, won't change that, if that was a common thought.
Burden and Rebuttals:
Because the damage they have done is irreparable and their only option at that point is to move on. Logan is in a position of power and wealth to actually take action and contribute some good.
So, what can Logan Paul do? That specifically makes him return to Japan and that he hasn't already done? (I do see you offer steps, and I will regard later in the debate).
What makes them different?
Elon Musk has quite the postion and more power to raise awareness, I don't see him doing that? Because he shouldn't, it's his money.
Proven himself how? His actions to good causes seem to be coming from a place of maintaining his good image and trying to save face than from an authentic position of true regret & remorse.
What do you think your ways of presenting ways of attempting to atoning would be?
Wouldn't atoning in your standards, be the same way? Trying to save his face? Regardless of his intentions, the same thing applies to your reasoning.
Rumor has it that he’s scammed his fans out of billions of dollars, casting doubt on whether or not he really has changed.
I believe this is irrelevant, as this regards an entire different issue that has no relation to the following:
- Japan (in general terms)
- Returning to Japan to atone for his actions
What past issue, the scrutiny?
My bad, let me get specific.
The issue regarding the specific actions he made in Japan while visiting.
If his actions to try and correct the past lead to it having worse circumstances, then it definitely stands that there are issues that haven’t been completely resolved.
I'm going to refer back to the top.
If that wasn't enough, what will be? I had hoped you would address this early on in the debate.
Had to scroll down, but I see you did answer.
Here's a misconception I see:
In pro's book, atoning means completely resolving.
^ But that's not the case. Atoning does not mean everyone has to be satisfied, that will never happen. He already has atoned, in his apology and even tried to make effort to support causes to show (which was even unnecessary). He had made amends.
He shouldn't because he already has, meaning it's unnecessary, and it will damage him even more.
The only person likely to bear the burden of this karma is Logan Paul and he hasn’t faced the consequences of his actions which is something he must endure to be worthy of redemption. He has defaced property, disrespected citizens, and made a mockery of their culture and the dead. If anything, he got off easy.
I'll mentioned more later on, regarding your methods of your book of "amends"
Considering that his Youtube carrer, his job, a major part of his life was ruined, he didn't get off easy. His Youtube carrer almost disappeared, Logan Paul had worked hard for his subscribers just like any other major Youtuber. His "life's" work.
He did not get off easy.
1. By helping businesses grow,2. offering to teach English,3. donating to charities,4. and raising cultural awareness of suicide in Japan will definitely foster positive change.
1 & 2. That's not his responsibility, nor did it have any correlation with his actions
3 & 4. He has, I mentioned this in my contention already. He has given around 1M to charity specifically regarding sucide prevention. Him donating supports awareness.
According to pro, Logan Paul has already made quite the positive change. The first two ideas by pro are irrelevant being it has no correlation with atoning or redemption.
The person he mocked had probably suffered worse than whatever Logan will likely endure. Logan does not deserve the privilege of being able to avoid facing his actions.To do the right thing, Logan Paul must prioritize his duty to helping the Japanese people over his desire to avoid criticism.
We can come to that conclusion sure. But do we know exactly their (both peoples) situation?
Logan Paul deals with hate around the world. When everyone knows your name, what you did, you become hated and mistreated for the rest of your life or for many years to come. I also already stated the consequences he endured.
- Not be a terrible person. His actions going forward are good, but not sufficient enough to undo the damage he has caused. He must do more good to right the wrongs he committed.
- The resolution is conditional. Logan should return to Japan, but only to be redeemed. Logan Paul is not required to donate his money, it is his. But then he is not entitled to redemption, nor is he able to objectively claim that he has become a better person.
- Demonstrating potential is meaningless. It’s the same as saying he has the possibility to change. The possibility to change is irrelevant if he refuses to take the opportunity when it’s presented to him.
1. So, at the end of the day, not be a terrible person? Okay, but I mean't to specifically atone in Japan, not being a terrible person doesn't atone for his actions in Japan. That said, "must", no he doesn't need to. And you cannot balance.
2. It is conditional, but you haven't proved why he should.
It's not his obligation/duty to:
- Help teach English - he is not the government
- Help other businesses that aren't his own
- Keep donating
As I already explained, these don't have relation at all.
This is the resolution: "Logan Paul should return to Japan to atone for his actions."
I'm going to break it apart.
1. Logan paul should return to Japan (this will be mentioned below)
2. Logan Paul has to return to atone for his actions (restate of burden)
His atoning would be because of his actions. If you atone for your actions, you do something that has relation to his actions. But let's really think, what can he do to atone to standards?
If someone broke someone's car windshield, they can apologize and fix the windshield. But in Logan Paul's case, he can apologize but not correct himself from laughing.
This either goes two ways:
Your Book:
1. So in terms of should, he shouldn't because he cannot and it would cause further problems.
If he cannot, he should not because he cannot. (If you cannot do something, you shouldn't).
So, if he cannot really atone, and its harmful to him, he shouldn't.
General:
2. He already has fulfilled atoning to the best of abilities and should not return because he already has and it would cause further problems.
But I also ask you this:
- Does this atoning actually correct his wrong doings , as you said, "potential to show he is being authentic", but this is not correcting it. And if it does not correct, is he really atoning? Can he really atone? If so, he already has.
If he already has, Logan Paul should not return when he already has made amends, regardless of if people accepted it.
Returning to Japan:
Furthermore, you do not have to go to Japan to do so.
In your resolution, "return to Japan", it makes all your steps irrelevant. You haven't shown anything where he physically has to return to Japan to do. You can donate online, no problem.
3. You mentioned potential first, not me. As you said "potential to show he is being authentic", then I guess what you said is meaningless.
Wrap:
What impression and overall review is left with this round?
Pro's side:
- Pro gives irreverent ways to atone
- Pro gives a method that has already been done by Logan to atone
- Current proposed methods of atoning would not really be atoning
- Not proved why he needs to atone to his standards
- Not proved why he needs to return to Japan to atone, and why he couldn't do it where he already lives
- All methods shown can be done where he lives which means he has not fulfilled part of he burden
My side (and remarks):
Logan Paul should not return to Japan, because there is no reason to go to Japan for all methods, if even needing to atone.
Besides that, Logan Paul should not because, if something is unnecessary and would cause harmful affects, someone shouldn't do it.
Going back to Japan, and trying to fix his reputation and other's reputation does not atone for his actions, even if he had to atone. And you even suggest this yourself. What he would really be atoning for is his reputation. Correcting his reputation. Not his actions.
^ Would it not? Let's go back to what you said:
Pro: "His actions to good causes seem to be coming from a place of maintaining his good image and trying to save face than from an authentic position of true regret & remorse." Seems you already agree.
Pro: "Not only the citizens of Japan, but for Logan Paul’s image, and the image of American tourists who go to Japan." So, even with your methods, you agree. It seems even your methods of atoning would not be for his actions, but atoning for others and himself. What does this mean?
Pro: "Logan does not deserve the privilege of being able to avoid facing his actions." If you really believe he needs to not avoid his actions, why would you want him to mask his actions and try to atone for his reputation? (Also when in reality, he atoned).
You also say: "potential to show he is being authentic" meaning you view amends as an attempt.
Pro's burden he is really supporting
Really, your current burden your trying to support is: "Logan Paul should attempt return to Japan to atone for his reputation"
--
I'll hand it back over to you pro.
Round 3
Pro
#5
If Logan Paul’s actions disrespected a culture and had observable consequences for other people, Logan has the obligation to take action to either repair or mitigate most of it.
Rebuttals
If an apology won't cut it, what will? And if an apology won't cut it for people, will anything?Also considering that he did support a cause.As of Logan's mistakes, do you have anything showing direct source (close) to him being the impression?For staters, i'm sure many people didn't know of that issue and i'm sure many people have done things in Japan that damaged how Japan viewed American's. However, I don't see them returning to Japan or being mentioned for their mistakes.I'm also sure many people in Japan aren't like, "An American vlogger- they are just like Logan Paul".And your standards of amends, won't change that, if that was a common thought.
Unfortunately, doing one good thing is not sufficient enough to consider it even. The fact that the reputation of streamers in Japan is already shaky territory and the Logan Paul event added to it means he is partly responsible for this image.
So, what can Logan Paul do? That specifically makes him return to Japan and that he hasn't already done? (I do see you offer steps, and I will regard later in the debate).What makes them different?Elon Musk has quite the postion and more power to raise awareness, I don't see him doing that? Because he shouldn't, it's his money.
While all billionaires are not required to help Japan and doing so is a courtesy, Logan actually owes Japan.
He had the privilege to go there as a tourist in their country and he abused this privilege in many ways. Now he must show respect and try to help.
What do you think your ways of presenting ways of attempting to atoning would be?Wouldn't atoning in your standards, be the same way? Trying to save his face? Regardless of his intentions, the same thing applies to your reasoning.
His actions to save his career are only helping himself, nobody else.
His intentions are irrelevant if he’s directly contributing good for everyone else. What about the image of his fellow americans he has hurt? Why doesn’t he reflect on how bad he makes the rest of us look?
So far, all we have from Con regarding the potential bad of Logan Paul returning to his Japan is the criticism he would catch whereas I have shown that he has the power and the moral duty to act.
Logan contributing to a suicide awareness charity is great, but this generosity will not help the people of Japan in anyway.
Con
#6
Rebuttals:
If Logan Paul’s actions disrespected a culture and had observable consequences for other people, Logan has the obligation to take action to either repair or mitigate most of it.
I have two problems with this.
Now I am to assume his actions you want him to atone for disrespecting culture.
Aokigahara forest had a part of culture, yes, however, the Japanese government has slightly swayed away from that including suicides as a public health issue overal. The Japanese had invested in sucide protection and suicide hotlines.
If this is part of culture, why did they try to prevent their culture?
Unfortunately, doing one good thing is not sufficient enough to consider it even. The fact that the reputation of streamers in Japan is already shaky territory and the Logan Paul event added to it means he is partly responsible for this image.
I can assure that Logan Paul isn't even thought about with a lot of streamers (vloggers) in Japan.
But I cannot prove this, neither can you.
While all billionaires are not required to help Japan and doing so is a courtesy, Logan actually owes Japan.He had the privilege to go there as a tourist in their country and he abused this privilege in many ways. Now he must show respect and try to help.
Logan Paul does not owe Japan.
Anyone can disrespect culture, it's a right.. You don't owe some because you dislike, unknowingly or misinterpreted their culture.
We all have our own opinions right? But we have free speech as well.
So, in Japan the Japanese Constitution protects freedom of speech. Therefore, in Aokigahara forest, everything he said was under free.
And in Japan, everything under free speech is protected, giving him the right to speak.
Such as if I disrespected Islamic culture, I am allowed to.
As for respecting and trying to help, he has.
Donating and apologizing both fits the criteria as "show respect and help".
His actions to save his career are only helping himself, nobody else.His intentions are irrelevant if he’s directly contributing good for everyone else. What about the image of his fellow americans he has hurt? Why doesn’t he reflect on how bad he makes the rest of us look?
Assuming you mean "the rest of us" in general terms of Americans.
After effects: He was helping others (Americans) if the Japanese people took his apology.
So far, all we have from Con regarding the potential bad of Logan Paul returning to his Japan is the criticism he would catch whereas I have shown that he has the power and the moral duty to act.Logan contributing to a suicide awareness charity is great, but this generosity will not help the people of Japan in anyway.
I contest this idea of that being the only thing i've shown.
I have proved the following:
- Logan Paul does not have to specifically go to Japan to atone, if atoning.
- Logan Paul had freedom of speech.
- Logan Paul had lack of sensitivity towards suicide being he never experienced someone who has commited suicide.
- Logan Paul has already fulfilled his "moral duty" to the best of his abilities.
- Logan Paul, if going back to "atone" will recieve backlack on his mental health.
^ All of these contribute to my part of the resolution. There may be more that i've said, but this covers a great portion.
Pro themselves show ways he can atone but they all allign with what he has already done. Expect for some of the irrelevant factors like helping teach English. If I disrespect Islamic culture, I don't need to donate to them to teach other people about Islamic culture.
As of donating, I don't specifically know everywhere hes donated. But he separated the donations, meaning some could have very well went to Japan (and probably did).
Review:
Pro doesn't consent that he's supporting "Logan Paul should return to Japan attempt to atone for his reputation."
Pro doesn't show evidence why Logan Paul must specifically return to Japan in order to atone.
Pro tries to bring "moral duty", but Logan Paul already has completely "moral duty".
I think there are other things, but everything else I have clearly shown thoughtout the rounds, so, i'll leave it here.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Follow this link: https://www.debateart.com/debates/4677/comments/55981
Starting there, my RFD begins it has 3 parts to it, see the comments posted just prior to it (below it visually unless they are over a page) for the remainer of the reason for my decision.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Sir.Lancelot R1
Jah, sounds jerk actions,
Sounds 'some apologies,
Would probably be recognized 'generally as good to apologize even more,
'Necessary though, questionable,
Necessary or should to X, would be helpful,
Sir.Lancelot R1 would be helped by explaining why Logan has not apologized or done enough,
But I'm sure all this will be addressed later by both sides.
Bella3sp R1
Brings up questions of why would apologies and actions thus far be not enough.
Sir.Lancelot R2
Argues that a vocal video apology is not 'enough of an apology,
Argues that other streamers were also hurt by his actions.
I'd think myself, that at some points, it's better to just say alright enough,
Than to keep picking at a situation, let wounds heal,
Picking just prevents healing.
Sir.Lancelot argues Logan has more power than most people, to make more substantial apology.
Though Sir.Lancelot argues Logan has harmed others,
Sir.Lancelot also tries to focus on Logan's own issues,
Arguing he needs more fully confront and apologize to move past issue himself.
Sir.Lancelot notes the outrageousness of Logan's actions,
But I am still unsure 'what the cutoff for apology is, seems vague subjective,
Though Sir.Lancelot argues it is not so vague, that Logan must simply do as much right as he did wrong.
Bella3sp R2
An apology 'is enough for a number of people,
Though I think myself, people may doubt apologies,
Though this usually occurs if they are used so often of 'same problems one believes they are insincere.
Logan being a scammer,
I return to my thought of 'why should he atone or apologize,
Because it's the right thing to do,
Though arguably he has already apologized,
Though not as 'deep as Sir.Lancelot argues he should have.
Bella3sp makes argument of ways that Logan has suffered for his bad/immoral videos.
Argues he donated a ton of money,
Though. . Money is relative,
I think of the The Widow’s Offering, in the Bible.
Still,
Then a question pops up, where Sir.Lancelot argues Logan is able to make more change than normal people,
Vs personal redemption, which Sir.Lancelot also argues for,
The two seems a 'bit different.
Sir.Lancelot R3
Hm, Sir.Lancelot arguing suicide money donation doesn't count,
As it is not apology to Japan.
Bella3sp R3
Hm, read through, I think what might sway me is going back and looking if he apologizes to Japan or what in his apology videos.
Leaning Thinking
Hm, apologizes to various people, what I most notice is victim and family apology,
Which 'seems to me to matter more than apology to Japan,
Though there 'is the various disrespect of culture in R1 Sir.Lancelot mentioned,
Bella3spmentions free speech later on,
Eh, if the actions unrelated to suicide were the issue, people would mention it more online and in debate,
Plenty of jackass videos online rude to people and cultures,
Arguably bigger issue the suicide, suicide more addressed in this debate,
Suicide wereguild, apology to victim and family.
RFV
Eh, my arguments vote goes to Bella3sp.
Sources, both used.
Legibility, both understandable.
Conduct, both polite.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Con agreeing to a shared BoP makes this a close one. While Pro does a good job showing that Logan Paul did something offensive, Con points out that atoning for his actions doesn't necessarily involve going back to Japan. While this does a good job of raising doubt, Con must also establish that it's better for Logan not to return, per the shared BoP.
There's a lot of back and forth on whether Logan has an obligation to do more for Japan, though a lot of this seems like both sides repeating themselves rather than making an argument. In the end, I think it's established that Logan offending Japan necessitated some sort of penance and that some level of penance has already been performed. I buy Con's point that Logan has done a lot so far. In response to the question, "How would Logan Paul atone, in Japan, that he hasn't already done?" Pro gives a number of options, but it's not clear why these things are better than what Logan has already done.
A point that I don't think got meaningfully addressed was Con's argument that Logan returning to Japan might harm his mental health. It's clear that Logan has been criticized a lot already, and while his actions were disrespectful, they did fall under free speech. This is Con's only constructive argument, but it seems to be left standing at the end of the debate. Pro argues that Logan deserves to suffer more and got off easy, but it's not clear why Logan's attempts at atonement so far have been insufficient. As Con points out, Logan has already apologized. And it seems evident that he has probably helped more people since the incident than were harmed (it's not clear that anyone was directly harmed, though many found his video offensive.)
A lot of this stems from a core disagreement about what Logan owes Japan. Con comes across as more reasonable, arguing that some penance has already been done and that more can be done without need for a grand gesture, while Pro seems to be arguing that none of Logan's redemption is sincere at all (and it's not clear why we should assume that). In the end, I think Con effectively argues that atonement doesn't require going to Japan physically, and the points about Logan's mental health are left standing imo. So arguments to Con.
I thought of that as well. I didn't want to go down the route.
Here's why:
If they couldn't forgive him, and it would also hurt the people of Japan. I could leave pro with many things like, "if someone hurt you, wouldn't you want them to apologize?". So now I got to prove that it would actually hurt the people for someone to apologize. What I mean by that is, would they welcome him back within time or is he already welcomed?
Next, number three would be based off luck that pro actually concedes to the fact people wouldn't accept it. Otherwise, I would go down that route. However, that can be rebuttaled quickly because many people did accept his apology. So, by saying it's not likely that people would accept his apology especially after even atoning further would be easily rebuttaled. I expected pro to find a way around that, so I played the safe side.
Further, I added off pro for number three because it rebuttaled him. As said, I wasn't going down that route as my main points.
I also fully read number one again. And while I didn't address not being welcome in Japan, for reasons, I did fully address it would hurt his image more and it would hurt him mentally.
You probably meant 'Pro' not 'Con' but I see how you saw it. I disagree with you, it ends up as a trap on Pro because you can then pivot to the Kritik angle from that.
You did number 3 after Pro himself brought it up (for reasons beyond me, as you only had to ask questions to bury Pro in that angle).
One thing, regarding:
"That Logan Paul is anything but welcome in Japan and could be hurt if he returns there (and ruin his image more).
2) That what he did wasn't quite as bad as Pro makes out if you see it in a different light.
3) [Kritik] That atoning for it is implausible or at least very improbable and him going to Japan would only seem superficial as they will not forgive it."
Number one wasn't addressed because it leads pro into backing me into a wall. I already thought of that, but here's the problem I can come across. "If he isn't welcome, that means there must be something he has to do to atone." I wasn't going to give that to pro in any way, just in case voters get led into that path.
Number two, it was mild. I talked about freedom, and if people view cultures that way, they can. That was my way of saying it all that.
Number three, I did clear that. My rounds did talk about if they did not accept his apology, how would atoning even work? Could he really atone? I already cleared through that as a backup.
Thanks for the vote, but just wanted to let you know.
RFD (1/3)
I wish to begin my RFD by quoting Con's closing statement:
"Pro doesn't consent that he's supporting "Logan Paul should return to Japan attempt to atone for his reputation."
Pro doesn't show evidence why Logan Paul must specifically return to Japan in order to atone.
Pro tries to bring "moral duty", but Logan Paul already has completely "moral duty"."
This was a brilliant summary of Pro's fatal flaws throughout the debate. Pro seems to have constructed a case that assumes that if Logan did something, then he automatically ought to go to a location and do something *beyond atoning* even, since Pro never quite establishes what atoning even means.
Source-wise, both debaters relied a bit on YouTube but only Con used an actual news from an acclaimed source like BBC. This was used to back the fact that Logan Paul has already taken steps to improve his image and at least indirectly atone for what he's done by helping others. In contrast the 'step up' from YT links for Pro was merely what seems like an amateur blog post, not even professional blog post, summarising what Logan Paul did as opposed to something relevant to proving he ought to go back to Japan to atone for it.
RFD (2/3)
I also note that one of the most crucial aspects of the debate ended up being that Logan Paul already has apologised, which was what Con used YT to prove, whereas Pro only used it to establish what Logan Paul had done and to instead provide the very link that Con used against him; that Logan Paul had already apologised. I am not penalising Pro heavily for the backfiring, merely summing up all the source usage and why I objectively see Con's use of sources as superior.
Right now, I will note that I am applying Tabula Rasa here, I can already think of 3 angles Con failed to take:
1) That Logan Paul is anything but welcome in Japan and could be hurt if he returns there (and ruin his image more).
2) That what he did wasn't quite as bad as Pro makes out if you see it in a different light.
3) [Kritik] That atoning for it is implausible or at least very improbable and him going to Japan would only seem superficial as they will not forgive it.
I note that these angles were not taken by Con and am shocked that in my eyes Con won by not taking any of these stronger/superior angles.
The debate instead comes down to 3 fundamental concepts:
1) Atoning versus completely resolving.
2) Whether physically visiting Japan to apologise on top of his already-present apology is necessary for atonement.
3) If atoning is even viable (despite Con not Kritiking it, Pro shot himself in the foot hard by some things he raised)
On the first concept combined with the third, I see neither debate explain what 'atone' is specifically defined as, the entire debate but Bella raises the point that it is not equal to completely resolving. The further issue is the following:
"Because the damage they have done is irreparable" is a statement by Pro, which if you scroll up was one of the angles I mentioned that Con didn't Kritik with despite it being so strong had Con done so.
Pro also says this: "Proven himself how? His actions to good causes seem to be coming from a place of maintaining his good image and trying to save face than from an authentic position of true regret & remorse."
RFD (3/3)
Which links to the first angle I mentioned combined with the third (Kritik) angle. I am not saying that I involved that in my voting but I am seeing Pro actually lay the groundworks for extremely brutal decimations to his case that Con didn't even think to bring up.
Con leverages these both, respectively, with some rhetorical questions and defensive statements:
(1)
"So, what can Logan Paul do? That specifically makes him return to Japan and that he hasn't already done? (I do see you offer steps, and I will regard later in the debate).
What makes them different?
Elon Musk has quite the postion and more power to raise awareness, I don't see him doing that? Because he shouldn't, it's his money."
(2)
"What do you think your ways of presenting ways of attempting to atoning would be?
Wouldn't atoning in your standards, be the same way? Trying to save his face? Regardless of his intentions, the same thing applies to your reasoning."
The second was not my style, too passive in delivery but it began to gape open a permanently bleeding wound in Pro's 'structure' or 'body' of argumentation. If Logan Paul would go and visit Japan why would they forgive it more than now? Wouldn't that seem like him going out of his way to save face and his image/brand? Pro's own logic begins to muddy the waters with respect to what atonement even means or how to qualify as atoning rather than saving one's image.
The entire debate continues with Con essentially asking 'why does he need to visit Japan if he has already apologised and donated to a suicide prevention charity'? Pro's replies all assume that the reader would automatically presume that visiting the nation of Japan is a necessary and effective step in the atonement for what he has done.
Since neither debater establishes the exact definition and qualification for atonement, I lean to Con on the idea that apologising and donating seem to qualify as 'atonement' since it seems to be linked to apology and forgiveness and Pro never pushes another definition down other than apparently visiting a country is arbitrarily part of atonement.
I have no idea how smart you are trying to seem but I will screenshot it on top of link it so people can laugh at this situation even if seeing this years later.
https://i.imgur.com/FArzxJA.png
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3492/posts/402093
You posted that 2 days ago, buddy. Have a nice time, I'll go quiet now.
Insightful observation, Not-Sherlock.
Have you recently discovered the sky is blue?
Or did you need time to process it?
Right okay... glad you realise you lose rating at least.
Lost rating is temporary & reversibly retrievable.
You can lose rating Lancelot. Lol.
He fixed the glitch.
Thank you for taking the time to vote on this!
@MyOwnVote
Though I mention The Widow’s Offering,
Maybe also should mention,
"Warning Against the Teachers of the Law
38 As he taught, Jesus said, “Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted with respect in the marketplaces, 39 and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. 40 They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2012&version=NIV
Sure The Widow’s Offering makes one think of how much a person is 'actually giving of themself, philosophical,
Rich man through the eye of a needle and all that,
Easy for people to take 'advantage of giving in others though,
Not really 'good for poor people to be even poorer,
Though 'general idea of giving is good, 'is held by society.
Society ought also want those givers to be helped themselves.
Would you guys be interested in voting on this?
I didn't.
I messaged Barney this morning, but he didn't see it until after you posted your round.
why did you wait until I posted the round to get the squidgame debate deleted?
Okay.
Do you mind leaving this up? I'll probably accept later.
He has since scammed people of 1.8 million USD so far on a grand scam thing with other criminals, preying on his own fans.
Logan Paul and his brother are just scum. His brother at least can box well.