Instigator / Pro
FishChaser's avatar
2
FishChaser
1510
rating
63
debates
53.97%
won
Topic
#4722

Plant Based Diet VS Carnivore diet (con is carnivore)

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
3
Better sources
0
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
1

After 1 vote and with 5 points ahead, the winner is...

Sir.Lancelot
Tags
Diet
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Rated
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Minimal rating
None
Contender / Con
Sir.Lancelot's avatar
7
Sir.Lancelot
1587
rating
182
debates
55.77%
won
Description

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Round 1
FishChaser's avatar
FishChaser
Pro
#1
You have sealed your ultimate demise into stone by accepting this debate because it is 100% certain that a plant based diet is superior to a carnivorous diet. 

1: Humans are meant to run primarily on carbs rather than fat or protein

3: Animal products are causally linked to higher disease outcomes
4: Plant foods are inversely linked to higher disease outcomes

There are many plant foods that can help prevent and fight off diseases. Some of these include:
  • Cinnamon
  • Garlic
  • Watercress
  • Thyme
  • Rosemary
  • Pumpkin
  • Olives
  • Lentils
  • Black pepper
  • Artichokes
  • Vegetables
  • Fruits
  • Beans
  • Grains
  • Nuts
  • Seeds
  • Spices, especially clove, oregano, thyme, basil, cinnamon, and cumin
  • Chili peppers
  • Broccoli sprouts
  • Seaweed
  • Mushrooms
  • Citrus fruit
  • Ginger



Sir.Lancelot's avatar
Sir.Lancelot
Con
#2
“You have sealed your ultimate demise into stone by accepting this debate because it is 100% certain that a plant based diet is superior to a carnivorous diet.”

Better go easy on me then. ;)

Framework

Well, as it currently stands. Pro is arguing that a plant based diet is superior to a meat-based one. While I’ll be arguing the reverse. How we will use it to determine this by applying the following standards.:

  • Which is better for functionality of health.
  • Which contributes to higher quality of life.
  • Overall, which does more good for the economy.

We can do this by weighing the overall pros for each category, where I shall conclude that on balance, a meat-based diet serves a variety of purposes and contributes more benefits than a plant-based one. 


Carnivorous DNA

Unlike other primates, Evolution did not intend for humans to be herbivorous and this is substantiated by our anatomy, physiology, and biology. While hypothetically, a human could live on the bare minimalist diet by only consuming fruits, vegetables, plants and nuts, they would only be surviving. 

Gorillas are able to live only by eating 45 pounds of vegetables a day and are super-lazy, yet they are known for their muscular and powerful physiques. This naturally inspires a lot of people in the fitness industry to assume they can achieve these results by imitating their diet. But the critical difference is gorillas have a gut bacteria called cellulase that allows them to digest vegetables in a way where their bodies can fully absorb the nutrients and vitamins. Gorillas do not eat meat. 1 

The reason why humans cannot achieve this is because we are designed differently and lack the biological infrastructure and cellulase to absorb the cellulose, nutrients & vitamins from vegetables. 
If a human attempted to mimic a gorilla’s diet, they would end up bloated with severe diarrhea. Most of their weight would be water and sodium weight. Far from being more nourished, since their bodies can’t absorb the vitamins, the constant bathroom visits would actually cause them to become more malnourished.

  • Vegetarian primates tend to be stronger and more muscular by default as their way of life because of genetics. But they’re also much lazier and live a more inert lifestyle.
  • Carnivorous primates are hunter-gatherers and generally have to fight or kill for their food. 
Humans have the genetic wiring of a mostly carnivorous primate.

“The carnivore diet plan is sort of an evolution of paleo and keto. It stems from the contested belief that our ancestors ate mostly meat and fish, and high-carb diets are why Americans and other western societies are experiencing such high rates of chronic inflammation, disease, and gut issues.”


The Economy

Much of American society are consumers of meat. The Meat Industry has supplied food nationally & globally, and given plenty of jobs to people who would otherwise be unemployed. 
For instance, the Meat Industry has given 5.4 million jobs and over $260 billion wages. 
It has been found that there is more of a demand for meat than there are for vegetarian products. 1 

Using this logic, we can infer that a carnivore diet is superior, economically speaking, to a herbivore one on the basis that most people crave and desire meat. 

Nutritional Benefits & Risks

  • Vegetarians have a higher risk of stroke, statistics find.
  • A vegetarian diet is commonly linked to causing nutritional deficiencies. 2

Controversy and medical wisdom suggests that a vegetarian diet leads to vitamin B12, vitamin D, fatty acids, calcium, iron, and zinc. 3

This naturally leads to things like.:

Anemia - Anemia is a condition that develops when your blood produces a lower-than-normal amount of healthy red blood cells. If you have anemia, your body does not get enough oxygen-rich blood. The lack of oxygen can make you feel tired or weak. 4

Osteoporosis - A medical condition in which the bones become brittle and fragile from loss of tissue, typically as a result of hormonal changes, or deficiency of calcium or vitamin D.

Brain Fog - Brain fog is characterized by confusion, forgetfulness, and a lack of focus and mental clarity. This can be caused by overworking, lack of sleep, stress, and spending too much time on the computer. 5

Expenses

A vegan lifestyle is more expensive than a carnivorous one because the efforts to combat the symptoms mentioned above generally mean paying more for multivitamins and supplements that would otherwise be unnecessary on a meat diet. 

Benefits of a Meat Diet

  • Leaner muscle tissue.
  • Clear-headedness and alertness.
  • Strength.
  • More energy.
  • Less bone fractures. 
Round 2
FishChaser's avatar
FishChaser
Pro
#3
If a human attempted to mimic a gorilla’s diet
No human on a properly executed plant based diet is mimicking a gorilla's diet.

Humans have the genetic wiring of a mostly carnivorous primate.
There is no such thing as a mostly carnivorous primate. All primates lean heavily to the herbivore side of the spectrum and all the worst diseases such as heart disease and cancer are causally linked to eating animal products whereas plant foods fight disease.



Using this logic, we can infer that a carnivore diet is superior, economically speaking, to a herbivore one on the basis that most people crave and desire meat. 
Eating only animal products is not superior to eating only plant products just because there is a demand for meat. This is a fallacious claim and an attempt to weasel in "but jobs though" into a debate about health. There is no evidence that humans have an inherent craving for meat, only that they are conditioned to crave it especially when it is cooked and covered with plant based seasonings.

  • Vegetarians have a higher risk of stroke, statistics find.
Bullshit, most strokes occur in old people who are clogged with cholesterol from eating animals. The article you linked admits the risk was low and that proper adjustments weren't put in place for the study to be conclusive. You are attempting to mislead voters by cherry picking shitty research.


A vegetarian diet is commonly linked to causing nutritional deficiencies.
The risk of deficiency is present on any diet if you don't make sure you're eating properly. You would have a case if it wasn't for the fact that there are vegans who are nourished better than over 99% of the population. 


A vegan lifestyle is more expensive than a carnivorous one because the efforts to combat the symptoms mentioned above generally mean paying more for multivitamins and supplements that would otherwise be unnecessary on a meat diet. 
You can be vegan on a budget (and without any supplements if you really know what you're doing) but meat is more expensive generally speaking. All of your arguments are outright lies and to claim that being vegan is more expensive than eating nothing but animal products is ridiculous, especially if you care about the quality of the animal products. Grass fed steaks and unpasteurized grass fed milk etc. are not cheap.

Benefits of a Meat Diet
LOL con links to a fucking sausage blog. All those benefits are bullshit propaganda from a sausage company.


Sir.Lancelot's avatar
Sir.Lancelot
Con
#4
“No human on a properly executed plant based diet is mimicking a gorilla's diet.”

Define ‘properly executed.’

A gorilla’s diet is literally what raw veganism is, which falls under the category of a plant-based diet. 

“There is no such thing as a mostly carnivorous primate. All primates lean heavily to the herbivore side of the spectrum and all the worst diseases such as heart disease and cancer are causally linked to eating animal products whereas plant foods fight disease.”
Yes, there are. 
Humans are a mostly carnivorous primate. And all primates do not lean mostly to the herbivore side because Tarsiers clearly don’t. 

“Tarsiers are the only extant entirely carnivorous primates: they are primarily insectivorous, and catch insects by jumping at them.” 1

“Eating only animal products is not superior to eating only plant products just because there is a demand for meat. This is a fallacious claim and an attempt to weasel in "but jobs though" into a debate about health. There is no evidence that humans have an inherent craving for meat, only that they are conditioned to crave it especially when it is cooked and covered with plant based seasonings.”

Meat is in higher demand because meat has overall better nutritional benefits that lead to consumer satisfaction and quality lives. This is why meat is such a huge staple in the economy. 

Craving red meat is a natural instinct that humans biologically have when they are under consuming certain vitamins, like Vitamin B12. 2

“Bullshit, most strokes occur in old people who are clogged with cholesterol from eating animals. The article you linked admits the risk was low and that proper adjustments weren't put in place for the study to be conclusive. You are attempting to mislead voters by cherry picking shitty research.”

Meat-based diets aren’t what’s responsible for the strokes in the elderly. 
Most medical research sources substantiate the claim I made earlier and that’s that veganism is the common denominator with causes of strokes.:

“Vegetarians experienced a roughly 20 percent higher stroke risk than meat eaters, and it was mostly due to a higher rate of one particular type called hemorrhagic stroke.” 3

“People who eat vegan and vegetarian diets have a lower risk of heart disease and a higher risk of stroke, a major study suggests.” 4

“The risk of deficiency is present on any diet if you don't make sure you're eating properly. You would have a case if it wasn't for the fact that there are vegans who are nourished better than over 99% of the population.”

Not according to doctors.

Even if vegans/vegetarians have health advantages in certain areas, they are underperforming nutritionally compared to meat-eaters.:

“As fundamental as diet is to health, you need to keep in mind the diet for which we’ve been adapted genetically, “said James O’Keefe, MD, the study’s lead author and director of preventive cardiology at Saint Luke’s Mid America Heart Institute. “Animal-based foods have been an important part of the human diet for at least three million years. Eliminating all animal foods would be like deciding you’re going to feed a tiger tofu and expect that it’s going to be healthy. If you want an organism to thrive, you should feed it the diet for which it’s been genetically adapted via evolution down through the ages.”
 
“Although the vegan diet is often promoted as being good for heart health, eliminating consumption of animal products may cause nutritional deficiencies and could lead to negative consequences, according to a comprehensive review published in the medical journal Progress in Cardiovascular Diseases.” 5 

Case in point, vegans are not more nourished than 99% of the world. Treat that as an unsubstantiated claim.

“You can be vegan on a budget (and without any supplements if you really know what you're doing) but meat is more expensive generally speaking. All of your arguments are outright lies and to claim that being vegan is more expensive than eating nothing but animal products is ridiculous, especially if you care about the quality of the animal products. Grass fed steaks and unpasteurized grass fed milk etc. are not cheap.”

You can be a vegan on a budget. But you can’t be a nourished vegan on a budget.

There are no cookbook recipes that can substitute the vitamins and nutrition you would otherwise get on a meat diet. So vegans have to turn to multivitamins and food supplements. The costs to consistently buy Vitamin B12, Zinc, Iron, and Omega-3 begin to add up. 

This affects vegans negatively in two ways.:
1. Timeliness.
2. Accessibility.

“LOL con links to a fucking sausage blog. All those benefits are bullshit propaganda from a sausage company.”
It wouldn’t matter if it was a fucking shoe blog.
Science is science.
Round 3
FishChaser's avatar
FishChaser
Pro
#5
A gorilla’s diet is literally what raw veganism is
Raw veganism is closer to a gorilla's diet but no one said it had to be raw and it still isn't the same. That point aside though, even if I humor your dishonest attempt to discredit plant based diets by saying it is the same as a gorilla's diet, humans are still better off eating like a gorilla than eating like a lion or a hyena. 
“Tarsiers are the only extant entirely carnivorous primates: they are primarily insectivorous, and catch insects by jumping at them.”
Well fiddle my fucksticks, I guess I was wrong. Still doesn't do ANYTHING to prove humans are "mostly carnivorous" when heart disease (the leading cause of death) and cancer plus many others are associated with animal products and inversely associated with plant foods. We still have a guy pointing to primates who eat bugs VS a guy who is pointing out that the leading causes of death could be eliminated with plant based diets.

Meat is in higher demand because meat has overall better nutritional benefits that lead to consumer satisfaction and quality lives.
Higher demand than what? Nutritional benefits aren't what people are thinking about when they buy meat most of the time. They are thinking about how tasty a well seasoned and cooked steak would be and if the average person gives a thought to the nutritional benefits it is protein 99% of the time which can easily be obtained from plants.

Craving red meat is a natural instinct that humans biologically have when they are under consuming certain vitamins, like Vitamin B12.
Then link to actual research showing that it is an instinct and not the result of humans being familiar with meat as a source for those nutrients. 

Most medical research sources substantiate the claim I made earlier and that’s that veganism is the common denominator with causes of strokes.:
Not according to doctors.
There are vegan doctors who promote plant based diets too you insanely dishonest packet of wanks.


Even if vegans/vegetarians have health advantages in certain areas, they are underperforming nutritionally compared to meat-eaters.
You mean even the ones who are hitting nutritional markers way better than the average? Wow, it's fascinating how dishonest you are. 
Keep in mind that Con hasn't even begun trying to justify a carnivore diet. He is focusing only on the benefits of including meat in your diet and in so doing gaslighting you into comparing an omnivore diet to a vegan diet. If he had his way he would change the debate from plant based VS carnivore to "gorilla diet VS omnivore diet" in your mind. He is a liar and a sleazy debater.

The costs to consistently buy Vitamin B12, Zinc, Iron, and Omega-3 begin to add up. 
Meat is more expensive generally and like you're hoping the audience forgets you have a BOP to defend a carnivore diet just as much as I have one to defend veganism. Carnivore dieters need supplements too btw, they often supplement vitamin C and magnesium among others.


Science is science
Then link to science instead of sausage propaganda lol.
Sir.Lancelot's avatar
Sir.Lancelot
Con
#6
“Well fiddle my fucksticks, I guess I was wrong.”

Usually happens when you grasp at straws and cling onto your phallus-ees for dear life.

But that’s neither here nor there.

“Raw veganism is closer to a gorilla's diet but no one said it had to be raw and it still isn't the same.”

There’s literally no difference.

I didn’t limit the discussion, I was giving one example by applying a version of veganism.

“That point aside though, even if I humor your dishonest attempt to discredit plant based diets by saying it is the same as a gorilla's diet, humans are still better off eating like a gorilla than eating like a lion or a hyena.”

Not all plant diets.
One plant diet. With other variations falling slightly short or being slightly identical. 

And yes, since humans and gorillas are primates and not felines or feliformias, it categorically makes sense that they would eat like other primates.

But between plant-based diets and cooked meats, the latter is more nutritious. Human bodies have fragile immune systems, so the meat they require needs to be sterilized through being cooked. 

“Still doesn't do ANYTHING to prove humans are "mostly carnivorous" when heart disease (the leading cause of death) and cancer plus many others are associated with animal products and inversely associated with plant foods. We still have a guy pointing to primates who eat bugs VS a guy who is pointing out that the leading causes of death could be eliminated with plant based diets.”

It’s an illustration to show why you’re wrong.

Meat isn’t what’s responsible for heart disease. Obesity, laziness, and over-consumption of meat is what causes heart-disease. 
The health effects induced by veganism cannot be mitigated or cured by eating more or less.

“Higher demand than what? Nutritional benefits aren't what people are thinking about when they buy meat most of the time. They are thinking about how tasty a well seasoned and cooked steak would be and if the average person gives a thought to the nutritional benefits it is protein 99% of the time which can easily be obtained from plants.”

People like how some plant-based foods taste too, but meat is more popular because the craving for its vitamins is a biological imperative.

Enjoying and liking certain seasonings is a man-made thing and used to amplify the satisfaction of the flavor. If you take that away and give every person the choice between plants/vegetables/fruits or meat, they still opt for the latter.

“Then link to actual research showing that it is an instinct and not the result of humans being familiar with meat as a source for those nutrients.”

Already did. Extend.


“In a separate analysis, the researchers did not find any association between a vegetarian diet and lowered risk of stroke.”

“There are vegan doctors who promote plant based diets too you insanely dishonest packet of wanks.”

Vegan doctors who also agree with the information I provided earlier.

“You mean even the ones who are hitting nutritional markers way better than the average? Wow, it's fascinating how dishonest you are. 
Keep in mind that Con hasn't even begun trying to justify a carnivore diet. He is focusing only on the benefits of including meat in your diet and in so doing gaslighting you into comparing an omnivore diet to a vegan diet. If he had his way he would change the debate from plant based VS carnivore to "gorilla diet VS omnivore diet" in your mind. He is a liar and a sleazy debater.”

You dropped all my valid arguments for Carnivorism. 

I have no preference for the subject. You picked the resolution and I stuck to it. 

Stay mad. 

“Meat is more expensive generally and like you're hoping the audience forgets you have a BOP to defend a carnivore diet just as much as I have one to defend veganism. Carnivore dieters need supplements too btw, they often supplement vitamin C and magnesium among others.”

While this may be considered anecdotal, you rarely hear of carnivores or meat-eaters buying supplements. 

This isn’t a coincidence. The fact that Jordan Peterson and other carnivores do not consume multivitamins is because all the vitamins are already in the fat solubles (A, D, E, and K) also found in animal fat.

Most carnivores drink bone broth which also contains magnesium, potassium, calcium, sodium, chloride, phosphorus, and sodium. So no need for multi-vitamin tablets or supplements.

Vegans, on the other hand. 

“Then link to science instead of sausage propaganda lol.”