Instigator / Pro
7
1526
rating
66
debates
54.55%
won
Topic
#4835

Methodism VS any other religion or denomination

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
0
Better sources
2
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
0

After 1 vote and with 4 points ahead, the winner is...

FishChaser
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Rated
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Minimal rating
None
Contender / Con
3
1446
rating
360
debates
42.22%
won
Description

No information

Round 1
Pro
#1
Methodism is a denomination of Christianity that teaches the principle of entire sanctification. Every other form of Christianity is half-assed compared to Methodism because they believe in a Jesus that will save just anybody instead of the Jesus that said "many are called but few are chosen" and "be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect". Methodism is the ultimate religion morally because it requires you to actually be like Jesus unlike the half-assed hypocrites that call themselves Christians the majority of the time. Being like Jesus means (according to the Bible) that you do unto others as you would have done to you if in their shoes,  that you are not a judgmental person and that you surrender your will to the will of God which means to prioritize being rich in virtue above being rich in a worldy sense. The book of proverbs teaches you how to be rich in both a worldy sense and a virtuous sense which means you don't have to sacrifice one for the other making it not only the ultimate religion morally but materialistically.
Con
#2
Methodism VS any other religion or denomination.

I guess the point of the topic is to just compare facets and elements and we go from there with questions and statements.

I want to use some biblical scripture to open up my introduction to what I'm saying.

The topic mentions "any other religion". So I'm taking the word religion synonymous with faith.

So it's Methodism versus any other religion/faith.

JUDE 1:20

"But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith"

A holy faith or a holy religion ok. 

Now where do we find what this holy faith is all about?

2 Corinthians 4

13" We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak"

So the faith has been written about. 

So it's Methodism versus what the bible says. What is believed is what will be said.

"Every other form of Christianity is half-assed compared to Methodism because they believe in a Jesus that will save just anybody instead of the Jesus that said "many are called but few are chosen" and "be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect".

Now this is scriptural what's in quotes. However the scripture doesn't call any such faith , the faith of methodism.

That can be a name people can choose to call the faith written in scripture. It can be problematic.

But so far we both may happen to be on the same page as far as religions. Different denominations that are made up or invented by sector founders manufacture their own doctrine, guidelines, METHODS, ceremonies, customs that begin to blurry what is acceptable, unacceptable, satisfactory , unsatisfactory, fulfilling, unfaithful and faithful .

In what you described I would say the bible puts it as lukewarm. There's no place for half-heartedness or being lukewarm in holiness.

"Methodism is the ultimate religion morally because it requires you to actually be like Jesus unlike the half-assed hypocrites that call themselves Christians the majority of the time. "

The scripture doesn't even teach such a religion called Christianity. I understand there are those that deny themselves to follow Christ and that's what someone may call those that follow Christ Christians. 

But the title Christian much like the title Christianity is used to blanket a homogenization of things blurring the lines once again.

To be halfway perfect by halfway doings things is not it. Scripture doesn't say halfway doer but a doer of the word.

"Being like Jesus means (according to the Bible)"

Believe on him as the scripture have said. It's all in there. All having the same spirit of faith according to as it is written. Amen. 

Therefore what's with all the denominations?

It's the same spirit of faith.

"that you are not a judgmental"

Well let us not blanket this. It's in the book to judge righteous.

So wherever you want to go from here I don't know. It's look like we're both on the same page.



Round 2
Pro
#3
Con hasn't even chosen a religion or denomination to defend. Instead he is siding with "Bible" which the logical conclusion of is methodism because Jesus wants you to follow him completely, which means working towards entire sanctification. 


So wherever you want to go from here I don't know. It's look like we're both on the same page.
Is this a concession?

If not I challenge Con to bring forward any Bible passage which debunks the idea of entire sanctification. Even if the Bible said something like "only God and Jesus can be entirely sanctified" it doesn't change the fact that Jesus clearly wants you to aim for being like him, which again means doing your best to rid yourself of sin and be "perfect".
Con
#4
Ok it's like you didn't read through everything I said.

I clearly said religion I take to mean as faith. I SHOWED YOU IN THE BIBLE WHERE IT'S WRITTEN THE NAME OF THIS FAITH. Do you get it now?

I never made any point about sanctification. Are you just bringing up things to try to debate on?

If we just happen to come to agreement, it is what it is. With a topic as broad as this "Methodism versus any religion", somebody can come up with anything that fits the word religion.  Then you use the title methodism, a title that's not even in scripture. Did Jesus say we're all to be methodists?

Scripture says be perfect. There's perfection in being HOLY which I gave scripture for ....HOLY FAITH.

Do you get that? Do you follow me?

That's what the scripture says.  I don't see anything about what you call "methodism" so how am I suppose to know your position is scriptural?

Maybe, if you use what the scripture uses , I wouldn't be here. I'm doing so and perhaps this is why you're not engaging. I believe this is how you are if I remember correctly.

You bring up concession. I say we're in agreement based on our opening points except for the term methodism which I had a rebuttal for. 

Another rebuttal is for you making the statement of doing your best to rid yourself of sin and be perfect.

Where is the scripture that teaches that?

Scripture says in 1 John 1:7

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

You want to debate something, debate this or concede. Here's your concession. As the bible puts it, be reproved, rebuked and repent.


Ephesians 2

"8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Where are you getting this "do your best" stuff from?

I guess that's methodism. It's not holiness.

Not of you, not of works to your very best. Not of your best handiwork created to do good works that you yourself prepared in advance for you to do. In another translation, ordained in advance.

"13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ."

Ties into 1 John 1 so there is no boast about doing the "best you can".

Which brings in this conflict. Doing your best as you say doesn't necessarily translate being perfect. It's just the best you can do. 

So you're trying to make a point about not being half-hearted and another point of doing your best like double talk.

Scripture says a double minded man is unstable. Your position is unstable and inconsistent.

1 Peter 2:8

"And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word"

You stumble, you've gone wrong at the word, you can't be obedient to. You talk being like Jesus. Be perfect that's correct.

We read in James 3:2

"For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man."

You stumble and have gone wrong in your position not being correct in the word of the scriptures.







Round 3
Pro
#5
Then you use the title methodism, a title that's not even in scripture. Did Jesus say we're all to be methodists?

Scripture says be perfect. There's perfection in being HOLY which I gave scripture for ....HOLY FAITH.
What does having faith cause you to do? If you have faith in the Bible and the teachings of Jesus you will try to adhere to the teachings. This is something that can be done poorly or done well, so having holy faith translates to Methodism because you will try to do as well as possible if you're a real Christian. 

 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


This doesn't mean not to do your best to be a good Christian, it means to give credit to God for your ability to do good. 
Con
#6
"What does having faith cause you to do? If you have faith in the Bible and the teachings of Jesus you will try to adhere to the teachings. This is something that can be done poorly or done well, so having holy faith translates to Methodism because you will try to do as well as possible if you're a real Christian. "

You given no scripture for any of this. Scripture says speak as the oracles of God, in keeping with what is written I believe.

Otherwise you stand guilty of going beyond what is WRITTEN .

Now I'm going to answer the question "What does having faith cause you to do?" with what is written.
Anything else would be adding words such as the word "Methodism".

1 Thessalonians 2

"13And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. "

Oh so your belief allows you to accept the word of God. I hear the scripture saying "faith cometh by hearing the word of God". Then from there the word working in you that believe.

Let's have some context here for exposition.

Back up to verse 10.

"10 You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed. 11 For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children, 12 encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory."

This is our theme isn't? Holy and righteous, lives worthy of God. Not Methodist and righteous but holy.
Let's harmonize 1 Thessalonians 2 with Philippians 2.

At verse 13
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

We know from John 1 the Word was God.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

This again kills your"try your best" , "do your best" mess . 

Scripture says out of Ezekiel "And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."

We just took a long way around to come right back to what I gave the previous round about God ordaining good works in advance for you to do.

Matter of fact if you're actually reading what I put, you already got the answer to the question from Ephesians 2.

Ephesians 2

"8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"

You having faith will get you saving grace .

Now this is where you error thinking it's you made up in your mind to believe .

"—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"

Don't forget that part.

Now we just went over the other passages that told us what is in work in you.

Look at this .

" 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

What's in work in you predestinated or prepared in advance the good works for you to do.

All just through having faith.

"This doesn't mean not to do your best to be a good Christian, it means to give credit to God for your ability to do good. "

" God prepared in advance for us to do."

You're reading that as we do the work of ourselves that God has prepared for us to do. Created in Christ to do works God prepared for us to do. What does that mean? It didn't say of ourselves do good works. It was created in us to do good works. Does it mean we do the work of ourselves that God has established or do the work not of ourselves because God is in work or at work in us to do the work?

The answer is the latter based on Philippians 2 and 1 Thessalonians 2, not to mention Ezekiel.

This is why we read line upon line of the scriptures, here a little, there a little. That's why you came to error in your interpretation of Ephesians 2. You error not knowing the scriptures.

Either way , you being prepared by God , your so called best has nothing to do with it. You were prepared by God, not prepared by yourself. By yourself it's all on you and you can call it your best which mostly will be half-hearted. A contradiction in your own position.

Scripture says of yourselves you can do nothing. But Christ the true vine, you can do all things who strengthens you.

It's because of your bias you read Ephesians 2 as works of yourselves. It says " not of works", " not of yourselves". We just read "not of yourselves". That was just read.

This is what having your own religion does. Which you call methodism. Scripture says beware of philosophy, traditions(customs)of men after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. You may have your own commandments that of man, not of Christ.

James 1:26

For people coming up with their own religions, Methodism, Presbyterian, Martin Lutheran, any of these man made denominations, religions, etc.

"If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain."

You are deceived when not in truth. Not in Christ is not being in truth because He is the truth.

Amen.