Instigator / Pro
1476
rating
336
debates
40.77%
won
Topic
#5438
Trans women are not colloquially women.
Status
Debating
Waiting for the next argument from the instigator.
Round will be automatically forfeited in:
00
DD
:
00
HH
:
00
MM
:
00
SS
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- One week
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- One month
- Point system
- Winner selection
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
1500
rating
2
debates
50.0%
won
Description
Disclaimer : Regardless of the setup for voting win or lose, The aim of this interaction, Is for those that view it, Learn and or take away anything that will amount to any constructive value ultimately. So that counts as anything that'll cause one to reconsider an idea, Understand a subject better, Help build a greater wealth of knowledge getting closer to truth. When either of us has accomplished that with any individual here, That's who the victor of the debate becomes.
One rule: All questions must be answered directly, not with irrelevant matter and applicable yes or no answers to clear yes or no questions followed up with elaboration if desired.
Round 1
Thanks to the opposing side for participating.
To briefly describe this topic I stated the following:
A woman is a woman. Just simply that. A trans woman is a man turned woman . There is no parallel connotation.
In everyday conversation (colloquial dialogue) , the use of the term woman is commonly received with the implication that natural females from birth are being referred to .
This has been the custom and traditional speaking of females known as women.
A female according to a search on Google:
"of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes."
First question of the debate. Can a transgender woman do this?
Nevertheless, there is a distinction between the two colloquially.
Colloquial according to a search on Google:
"used in ordinary or familiar conversation"
Used in everyday conversation and throughout history, when the term woman is used, when you think of a woman, it is exactly that.
A transgender woman is not exactly that. There is more that has to be unpacked there in a denotation.
A transgender woman is a man turned woman.
This is why this is a big deal concerning sexuality. The sexual involvement of a trans woman with a cis man will prior to engagement announce or disclose gender identity.
Why?
It's because not all cis men will get involved with a transgender woman.
When they think of women, they don't think of transgender women because that's what cis women are referred to as, women.
So colloquially that's what cis women are called and thought of as with use of the term. Trans women are not parallel to this because a distinction has to be there .
Traditionally and customarily we've never had to make a distinction with the term cis woman. A man such as this looking for a date with a woman is looking for a cis woman or natural woman but will colloquially refer to her just as woman .
A trans woman is not the same as a natural woman, can't be thought of the same and to avoid confusion,will not have the colloquial connotation.
A trans woman mistaken for a woman will be identified as such by mistake. But then for clarification, the trans woman will eventually have to indicate "No I'm not a natural woman . I was a man or I'm a transgender woman. Don't categorize me with natural women under a colloquial label that does not apply to me in the traditional connotation ."
If trans women are colloquially women, these people wouldn't have to make the distinction in what they are because they're colloquially the same as any other natural woman.
A woman is a woman. A transgender woman is a man turned woman.
I'm going to review this message from the opposing side . I've expounded on my message sent to this individual.
The following was the message from the Con side:
4/21/2024, 10:32:30 AM
"I do not agree every trans woman is colloquially a woman due to a distinction needed to be made since traditionally woman is conceived of as a female. In fact, I would reject that idea. When most people say woman they are referring to a collection of cultural attitudes, appearance. feelings, and behaviors associated with the female sex and sometimes a collection of biological construct based on anatomy, physiology, genetics, and hormones.
The reason why trans woman disclosing their past and present gender identity is important in some situations is because most people have a strong genital preference. It is conceivable for a cis woman to get bottom surgery then to get sexually involved (without disclosing their surgery), and that would be bad for the exact same reason for when a trans woman who has not gotten bottom surgery to get sexually involved without disclosing their past and present gender identity. In fact, I guarantee that if the former was as of a widespread phenomena these two people would have the exact same obligation disclose certain thing - not because of their sex - but their gender is associated with a sex."
The reason why trans woman disclosing their past and present gender identity is important in some situations is because most people have a strong genital preference. It is conceivable for a cis woman to get bottom surgery then to get sexually involved (without disclosing their surgery), and that would be bad for the exact same reason for when a trans woman who has not gotten bottom surgery to get sexually involved without disclosing their past and present gender identity. In fact, I guarantee that if the former was as of a widespread phenomena these two people would have the exact same obligation disclose certain thing - not because of their sex - but their gender is associated with a sex."
The first sentence I think is backwards by error.
"I do not agree every trans woman is colloquially a woman"
Right I don't agree with that either. Unless the opposing side is just saying some are colloquially women and others aren't which still agrees with me.
"When most people say woman they are referring to a collection of cultural attitudes, appearance. feelings, and behaviors associated with the female sex and sometimes a collection of biological construct based on anatomy, physiology, genetics, and hormones."
You left out "transgender " or referring to also men that have turned women. See even by traditional, habitual, subconscious inclination, that is omitted because that is not part of the colloquial language, colloquial expression and equation.
You say "appearance " and what is the appearance of a cisgender and trans?
Are they seamless in physical proportion? In close proximity, can a disparity be established?
With a difference, this is not what is being referred to nor have in mind because cis men anticipate that there be a difference so they automatically won't have it in mind. It wouldn't even enter their minds.
Due to this in the minds of men, this colloquial distinction is a representation of this mindset in men. Separating the idea of "real" women (women) vs pseudo women (trans woman; she-man).
The Con side mentioned association with genetics and biological construct. Any learned man or educated man knows of the XX chromosomes.
When men think of women , they think of these chromosomes and genetic make-up being associated and vice versa.
"The reason why trans woman disclosing their past and present gender identity is important in some situations is because most people have a strong genital preference."
This much the opposing side already concedes to or agrees with.
Let's look at it this way. Is a woman a woman?
Yes.
Is a man turned woman a woman? No. Not in a colloquial referential value because it's not just as basic as a woman being a woman. In other words the label of "woman" does not sufficiently detail what a transgender person has transitioned through or may possess anatomically.
Using the term "woman"broadly encompass both cis and trans women would be inaccurate and confusing.
The two are not women just the same. They both may identify as that. If I say bring me a group of ladies in here to model. I have in mind exactly that.
If you bring me a mix bag with transgenders, are you
now saying they are women in the same manner as these other natural women?
How do you explain this to a child?
This is the issue broadly misapplying the term so colloquially it is not in everyday conversation.
On average a woman is a natural woman. Maybe when the average so called woman is transgender, maybe then it'll be a shift colloquially.
But if colloquially a trans woman is just another woman like a natural woman, the issue is with a man thinking he's getting a certain type of genitals when in actuality possibly getting another.
A woman is generally expected to have this certain type. The transgender person doesn't conceal in such circumstances and says "I'm colloquially a woman so you should expect this". This is why the person makes the distinction. By the person telling the man of this about herself, the transgender is saying "I'm a distinction. I'm not a woman in the traditional, expected, ordinary, colloquial sense."
"It is conceivable for a cis woman to get bottom surgery then to get sexually involved (without disclosing their surgery), and that would be bad for the exact same reason for when a trans woman who has not gotten bottom surgery to get sexually involved without disclosing their past and present gender identity. In fact, I guarantee that if the former was as of a widespread phenomena these two people would have the exact same obligation disclose certain thing - not because of their sex"
It is the same difference. A cis gender person that has altered the genitalia is a transgender. Remember what I say about a woman is a woman and a man turned woman is not a woman but a man turned woman.
It's the same way vice versa .
I believe the opposing side has had debate topics concerning trans women or all trans women being women.
That's true. Don't have to debate that because these individuals are identifying under the label of women.
But what do you think they mean by the label "women" or "woman? Do you think they have thought of the connotation?
Being that they know the connotation of "woman" is what it is, they have to break it down to a person they're about to get involved with sexually because of that person they're getting involved with will have that colloquial connotation hence the breakdown.
P.S.
In the midst of preparing these points, I received further communication from the opposing side. The initial communication,I asked a question about agreeing that not every trans woman is colloquially a woman.
Message below from the opposing side:
4/24/2024, 6:02:32 PM
"I would like to inform you that my position is actually some trans woman are colloquially woman. Since you seem to be of the position that no trans woman is colloquially a woman."
The opposing side amends the original response now specifying partial agreement. So now we get to find out why what I've stated doesn't apply to every trans woman.
The debate is still surrounding the same conflict but with the attachment or amendment of what appears to be justifying a double standard.
Still I take the position that trans women are not colloquially women. You can interpret this correctly as all .
The opposing side takes the position that trans women are colloquially women. With the specification now brought to the light, not all but apparently more than one.
Maybe one , the con side can specify the number, whatever.
Thank you Mall for the dialogue.
Throughout the debate CON will take note of every agreed upon proposition as another postulate. CON will also forfeit if PRO is able to demonstrate unsound logic and that no transgender woman is colloquially a woman.
CHAPTER 1 Round One Argument
1.1 Definitions
- Something used in ordinary or familiar conversation is colloquial.
- Female is of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes.
1.2 Postulates
- Every individual that’s convincingly a woman is a woman in everyday conversation.
- Some transgender women are an individual that’s convincingly a woman.
1.3 Propositions
Proposition 1.1. SOME TRANSGENDER WOMEN ARE CALLED A WOMAN IN EVERYDAY CONVERSATION.
Every individual that’s convincingly a woman is a woman in ordinary conversation [Postulate 1.1], moreover, some transgender women are an individual that’s convincingly a woman [Postulate 1.2]; therefore, some transgender women are called a woman in ordinary conversation.
Proposition 1.2. SOME TRANSGENDER WOMEN ARE COLLOQUIALLY WOMEN.
Every individual called a woman in ordinary conversation is colloquially a woman [Def 1.1], moreover, some transgender women are called a woman in ordinary conversation [1.1]; therefore, some transgender women are colloquially women.
1.4 Response
Malls' argument
To summarize Mall's argument:
Historically, traditionally, and to normal thought "woman" has been used to refer to a female.
In everyday conversation (colloquial dialogue) , the use of the term woman is commonly received with the implication that natural females from birth are being referred to....Used in everyday conversation and throughout history, when the term woman is used, when you think of a woman, it is exactly that.
Which transgender women, as PRO continues, cannot fit the category of and therefore, transgender women are not colloquially women - as they are a "man turned woman". Which is the entirety of the reason why, when men talk about getting sexually involved with another woman, they exclusively refer to cisgender women and not transgender women.
Malls' preemptive rebuttals
CON has made the rebuttal that people, when wanting to get sexually involved with another person, is not due to the gender assigned at birth but rather the strong genital preference people hold. As a cisgender woman may get bottom surgery to get a penis, generally, cisgender man will probably avoid or stop any sexual proceedings for the exact same reason.
As a rebuttal PRO states that it is the same difference since they (the cisgender woman who got bottom surgery) are then transgender by the virtue of having a penis.
CON would disagree with the definition PRO has given. For the same reason CON will like to amend the rebuttal - as they were under the impression that PRO and CON were using the same definition of transgender, and, would rather not argue over the definition. Which follows:
When wanting to get sexually involved with another person, is not due to the gender assigned at birth but rather the strong visual preference people hold. As a cisgender woman may look like a man but, generally, cisgender man will probably avoid or stop any sexual proceedings for the exact same reason for a transgender woman whom looks like a man. The inverse also shows the colloquial use is in CON's favor; if a transgender woman is visually a woman to others (and had bottom surgery) that person would be included in the group that hetero men would colloquially consider women. Let's assume that the woman does not inform them that they are transgender to make it simple, how would they not be considered colloquially as a woman by the man?
You say "appearance " and what is the appearance of a cisgender and trans?Are they seamless in physical proportion? In close proximity, can a disparity be established?With a difference, this is not what is being referred to nor have in mind because cis men anticipate that there be a difference so they automatically won't have it in mind. It wouldn't even enter their minds.Due to this in the minds of men, this colloquial distinction is a representation of this mindset in men. Separating the idea of "real" women (women) vs pseudo women (trans woman; she-man).
PRO's rebuttal seems to be that seems to be that men's lack of distinction between transgender woman who look like women and women who look like women (since they only think of the latter) reinforces the idea there is a separation of "real" and "pseudo" women? The point is that men would also colloquially include transgender women in the category of woman. Not entirely sure how the premises even lead to the conclusion. Please try to write in a more understandable manner on this point specifically, since the argument trying to be made here seems to be unclear.
1.5 Other issues
CON would like to drop their argument: "The reason why trans woman disclosing their past and present gender identity is important in some situations is because most people have a strong genital preference" as CON was under the impression both parties were using the same definition of transgender.
Round 2
Not published yet
Not published yet
Round 3
Not published yet
Not published yet
Round 4
Not published yet
Not published yet
Round 5
Not published yet
Not published yet