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#5736
Is the atonement of Jesus Christ ethically tenable?
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Description
This debate has been proposed by Casey_Risk. I kindly ask that nobody else accepts this debate.
This debate will explore the ethical foundations of the atonement of Jesus Christ, particularly the Catholic belief that His sacrificial death was not only morally justifiable but divinely necessary for the salvation of humanity. The focus will be on whether it is ethically tenable that Jesus, who was without sin, bore the punishment for humanity's sins in our place, thereby expiating us from our impurities.
The goal of this debate is not to declare a 'Winner' or 'Loser,' but to engage in a thoughtful discussion that deepens the understanding of Christ’s atoning work and its ethical implications, especially from a Catholic viewpoint.
Definitions:
Atonement - By atonement in general is understood the satisfaction of a demand. In the narrower sense it is taken to mean the reparation of an insult. This occurs through a voluntary performance which outweighs the injustice done (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 186-187).
Rules:
1. Both parties agree on the historical existence and death of Jesus.
2. For consistency, the NRSV Bible will be used as the reference when citing scripture.
3. In the final round, only counterarguments addressing previous points will be allowed; no new arguments may be introduced.
4. Failure to comply with rule #3 will result in an automatic forfeiture.
Round 1
INTRODUCTION.
Welcome, all readers, to the first round of this debate. I would first like to dedicate a section of my introduction to properly thank my opponent for proposing and facilitating this debate. Without their willingness and inclination to participate, this debate would not have materialized. It may be theologically dense for some readers so I highly respect my opponent's dedication and eagerness to place their due efforts in the ensuing argumentation.
I invite you to follow this reflection on one of the most profound mysteries of our faith: the atonement of Jesus Christ. This debate will discuss the central topic: Is the atonement of Jesus Christ ethically tenable? I will be assuming the affirmative position. Throughout this debate, some arguments may briefly reappear as I share another point.
Before starting, I must recollect some definitions. Throughout this debate, you will be exposed to many theological standpoints. Being Catholic, I will assume the Catholic position. “Atonement” will be a term you will encounter frequently. Atonement is generally understood as the satisfaction of a demand. In the narrower sense, it is taken to mean the reparation of an insult: "satisfactio nihil aliud est quam injuriae alteri illatae compensatio." Understanding the meaning of atonement is a prerequisite to applying it. The atonement of Jesus, by this definition, is interpreted as His sacrificial death to reconcile humanity with God.
PREREQUISITE.
Before we can fully understand the atonement, we must first grasp why atonement was necessary. The story of humanity’s fall into sin is foundational to this discussion.
In the Book of Genesis, we read of the first humans, Adam and Eve, living in perfect harmony with God in the Garden of Eden. However, their choice to disobey God by eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Genesis 3:1-6) introduced the experience of sin into the world. This act of disobedience, known as Original Sin, caused a rupture in their relationship with God. As a result, humanity became estranged from God, and the harmony of creation was broken.
This separation from God is not merely a theological concept; it is a moral and spiritual reality. Sin distances us from the very source of life and goodness. As St. Paul explains, "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). Because of this, humanity was in desperate need of salvation — a way to be reconciled to God. But the gap caused by sin was so great that no human effort could restore what was lost. Only God Himself could bridge that gap, which brings us to the necessity of Christ’s atonement.
MAIN BODY #1
Atonement occurs through a voluntary performance which outweighs the injustice done. On the occasion that such performance, through its intrinsic value, utterly counterbalances the grievousness of the guilt according to the demands of justice, the atonement is fully adequate or of full value. If it is not commensurate with the grievousness of the offence and is accepted sufficient purely out of gracious consideration, it is inadequate or of incomplete value. Additionally, if the atonement is not performed by the offender himself, but by another in his stead, it is deemed vicarious atonement (satisfactio vicaria).
At its core, atonement is about satisfying the demands of justice. Sin, by its nature, is an offense against God, who is infinitely good. Therefore, the offense requires a satisfaction of infinite value. As humans, we are incapable of offering such a satisfaction because we are finite creatures. This is why the atonement had to come through Jesus Christ, who is both fully God and fully man. Christ Himself expressed the notion of the vicarious atonement in the words: “the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many,” (Matthew 20:28). “Just as the Father knows me and I know the Father. And I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again.” (John 10:15-18). This notion appears distinctively: “For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2 Corinthians 5:21). “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us.” (Galatians 3:13). The justice of God is revealed in the demand for and the acceptance of Christ’s vicarious atonement-sacrifice (Romans 3:25), “to the shewing of His justice.” (Cf. 1 Peter 2:24) Since the start, the Fathers accepted Christ’s vicarious atonement. This is exemplified further in the Apostles’ disciple, St. Clement of Rome, who comments: “For the sake of the love which He had for us Our Lord Jesus Christ, according to the will of the Father has given His blood for us, His flesh for our flesh, and His soul for our soul” [1].
St. Anselm of Canterbury, in his dialogue Cur Deus Homo, speculatively penetrated and built up to a systematic theory of Redemption the idea of Christ’s vicarious atonement which is revealed from Scripture and tradition. St. Anselm proceeds from the contemplation of the guilt of sin. This, as an insult offered to God, is infinite, and therefore demands an infinite expiation. Such expiation can only be achieved by a Divine Person. To be capable of representing mankind, this person must be, at the same time, man and God.
The ethical structure of Christ’s atonement lies first within its adequate and full value by reason of its intrinsic merit, which lies in the Hypostatic Union. Christ’s actions posses an intrinsic infinite value, because the principium quod is the Divine Person of the Logos. Thus, Christ’s atonement was, through its intrinsic value, sufficient to counterbalance the infinite insult offered to God, which is inherent in sin. According to the teaching of the Scotists and the Nominalists, it was adequate only by virtue of God’s external acceptance. God required reparation for sin; hence, Christ’s atonement is necessary to restore balance. By willingly offering Himself, Jesus provided the necessary reparation for our sins, reconciling humanity to God. This sacrifice of reconciliation, mending the relationship humans broke with God, is perhaps the epitome of the term "an act of love." Separation from perfect goodness, peace, and love is the most damaging state you can be in, which is exactly what hell is.
MAIN BODY #2
An essential aspect of the atonement is that Christ’s sacrifice was entirely voluntary. This is critical because it demonstrates the depth of His love for humanity and affirms the justice of the act. In 431, the Council of Ephesus teaches with St. Cyril of Alexandria “He (Christ) offered Himself for us as a sweet odour (that is, as a pleasing sacrifice) to the God and Father.” According to Hebrews 8-10, the sacrifices of the Old Covenant were models of the death of Christ on the cross. The Prophet Isaiah foretells not only the Passion and Death of the future Messiah, but also that He would voluntarily accept it as a “guilt-sacrifice” for the sins of mankind (Isaiah 53:7-12). St. John the Baptist, the last of the Prophets, following Isaiah, sees in Christ the Lamb of Sacrifice, who took on Himself the sins of all mankind, in order to atone for them. John 1:29: “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
St. Paul, most clearly of all, bears witness to the sacrificial character of Christ’s death on the Cross. Ephesians 5:2 “Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children, and live in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.” 1 Corinthians 5:7 “For our paschal lamb, Christ, has been sacrificed.” Romans 3:25 “God put forward [Christ Jesus] as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith.” The atoning blood is, however, according to Holy Scripture sacrificial blood (Leviticus 17:11). Hebrews 9:1-10, 18, 28, describes the superiority of the sacrifice offered by Christ on the cross over the Old Testament sacrifices. 1 John 2:2, “he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”
Christ Himself indirectly designated His death on the Cross as a sacrifice for the sins of men, by using the biblical sacrificial terms “giving up of life” and “shedding of blood.” Matthew 20:28: “just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.” In the inauguration of the Holy Eucharist, He indicates the sacrificial character of His death. Luke 22:19, “Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body, which is given for you.’” Matthew 26:28, “for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” The Fathers, from the very beginning, regarded Christ’s death on the Cross as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind. The author of the Barnabas Letter 7:3, says: “He Himself wished to offer the vessel of life (His Body) as a sacrifice for our sins, so that the model would be fulfilled, which was given in Isaac, which was offered on the altar of sacrifice.” Other examples include, St. Clement of Alexandria, Paedagogus, 5:23 , I; St Augustine, De civ. Dei X 20 ; De Trin IV 14:19.
The sacrificial character of Christ’s death on the Cross may be established, speculatively, in that all the demands of a sacrificial act were fulfilled. Christ as a man was at the same time sacrificing priest and sacrificial gift. As God together with the Father and with the Holy Spirit, He was also the receiver of the sacrifice. The act of sacrifice consisted in the fact that Christ, in a disposition of the most perfect self-surrender, voluntarily gave up His life to God by permitting His enemies to kill Him, although He had the power of preventing it (John 10:18). Jesus, aware of the suffering that awaited Him, chose to lay down His life freely. This voluntary nature is not only an expression of divine love but also key to the ethical tenability of the atonement. If Christ had been coerced into sacrifice, it would have been unjust. But because He freely chose to give Himself, He offered the highest act of love: "No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends." (John 15:13). This act of self-giving love shows that the atonement is not merely a legal transaction but a personal and loving offering that invites humanity into restored relationship with God.
MAIN BODY #3
The purpose of the atonement was to reconcile humanity with God. This reconciliation is essential for our salvation, as it restores the broken relationship caused by sin. The Council of Trent teaches that Our Lord offered His life on the Cross for our eternal redemption. The same Council refers to the one mediator Jesus Christ: “who in his blood has reconciled us with God made unto us justice and sanctification and redemption” (1 Corinthians 1:30). D 790.
Christ regards the giving of his life as “a redemption for many” (Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45). In agreement with this, St. Paul teaches that Christ gave Himself up as ransom for mankind and that the effect of His death of sacrifice was our ransom. 1 Timothy 2:6, “who gave himself a ransom for all.” Romans 3:24, “they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” The slavery from which Christ purchased mankind through His sacrificial death is the slavery of sin (Titus 2:14, “He it is who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity”), the slavery of the Mosaic Law (Galatians 3:13, “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us”) the slavery of the Devil (Colossians 1:13 “He has rescued us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son”) and the slavery of death (2 Timothy 1:10, “our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel”).
Christ indicates the atoning power of His death in the inauguration of the Eucharist: “for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins” (Matthew 26:28). St. Paul ascribes the reconciliations of sinners with God, that is, the restoration of the original relationship of child to parent and friendship with God, to Christ’s death. Romans 5:10 “For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life.” Colossians 1:20 “and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.” The atonement is not merely about cancelling a debt; it is about restoring communion with God. Through Christ’s sacrifice, we are no longer estranged from Him, but adopted as His children (Galatians 4:4-5).
From the beginning the Fathers insist on the scriptural ideas of ransom and atonement. St. Ireneaus, appealing to the passages in the Epistle to the Ephesians (1:7 ; 2:13), says “Since between Him (Christ) and us there exists a community (namely the community of the flesh and blood), the Lord reconciled mankind with God, by reconciling us through the body of His flesh and ransomed us through his blood.” Christ’s atonement demonstrates God’s mercy because it offers forgiveness while maintaining divine justice. Ethically, the atonement reflects perfect love, where the innocent (Christ) sacrifices for the guilty (humanity). It aligns with the moral principle of self-giving love (agape), central to Christian ethics. In reconciling us to God, Christ’s atonement also demonstrates both divine justice and mercy. Justice demanded that sin be dealt with, but mercy provided the means through which we could be forgiven. As St. John Chrysostom said, "God both punished sin and saved the sinner" through Christ’s sacrifice. Jesus offered to us a way out of the experience of hell, by giving up His life. He did this in order to restore the lost relationship God wants to have with His creation.
MAIN BODY #4
One important objection that arises is whether Christ’s atonement negates human free will. If Christ died for all, does that mean salvation is automatic or imposed upon us? The Catholic answer is a clear "No." Catholic teaching holds that while Christ’s atonement is universal — it is offered to all — its benefits must be freely accepted.
The atonement respects human free will, as Catholics believe salvation through Christ is offered to all but accepted by individual choice. Christ did not die for the faithful only, but for all mankind without exception (Sent. fidei proxima). In the year 1653, Pope Innocent X condemned as heretical the proposition that Christ died for the salvation of the “predestined” exclusively. D 1096. In the year 1690, Pope Alexander VIII rejected the assertion that Christ offered Himself to God for the faithful only (pro omnibus et solis fidelibus). D 1294. The Council of Trent laid down: “Hence it was that the Heavenly Father sent His Son to men that He might redeem the Jews who were under the Law and that the gentiles who followed not after justice might receive justice and that all might receive the adoption of sons. Him God hath proposed to be a propitiation through faith in His blood for our sins and not alone for ours but for those of the whole world.” D 794. Cf. D 319, 795.
Holy Scripture clearly teaches the universality of the deed of Redemption, and with it indirectly the atonement of Christ. 1 John 2:2, "and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” Cf. John 3:16 et seq. ; 11:51 et seq. ; 2 Corinthians 5:15 “and he died for all, so that those who live might live no longer for themselves, but for him who died and was raised for them.” Cf. Romans 5:18. The Fathers living before the outbreak of the Pelagian controversy unanimously teach both the generality of God’s will of sanctification and the generality of Christ’s vicarious atonement. St. Clement of Rome writes: “Let us behold the blood of Christ and let us realise how precious it is to God His Father because it, shed for our salvation, has brought the grace of repentance to the whole world.” Cf. St. Ireneaus, Adv. haer. III 22:4. On Good Friday, the commemorative day of Christ’s death of redemption, the Church prays for the salvation of all mankind.
The universality of Christ’s vicarious atonement refers to the objective Redemption only. Christ made sufficient atonement for all men without exception. The subjective appropiation of the fruits of Redemption is, however, dependend on the fulfilment of certain conditions, on faith (Mark 16:16), and on the observation of the Commandments (Hebrews 5:9 ; 2 Peter 1:10). Accordingly the Schoolmen distinguish between sufficientia (adequacy) and efficacia (efficacy, success) of atonement, and teach that Christ offered atonement for all mankind, secundum sufficientian, but not secundum efficaciam. In other words: in acto primo Christ’s atonement is universal ; in actu secundo, it is particular. All of this was to establish the premise; Christ’s atonement is universal, but is not forced. Free will still exists independently of the atonement. God does not force anyone into salvation; He invites us. This respects our free will and our dignity as human beings. While Christ’s atonement is sufficient for all, it is only effective for those who freely choose to accept it. This harmonizes the universal scope of the atonement with the individual’s freedom to respond.
CONCLUSION.
In conclusion, the ethical tenability of Christ's atonement withstands rigorous scrutiny when evaluated through the lens of justice, love, and free will. Sin, as an infinite offense against an infinitely good God, required a reparation of equal measure — something no human could ever provide. However, Christ’s atoning sacrifice, as both God and man, fulfilled the demands of divine justice through a perfect act of love, bridging the gap between humanity and God. This vicarious atonement was not only sufficient, but necessary, as Christ’s infinite merit balanced the infinite insult caused by sin, something no human effort could accomplish.
Furthermore, the voluntary nature of Christ's sacrifice strengthens the ethical foundation of the atonement. Jesus freely chose to offer His life, ensuring that His death was a morally upright act of self-giving love, not a coerced or unjust imposition. The notion that His atonement could violate human free will is unfounded — salvation is not forced upon anyone. While Christ died for all, His sacrifice respects our free will, offering salvation universally but requiring individual acceptance. This balance between the universal scope of Christ’s atonement and the personal choice of each individual upholds human dignity and ethical coherence.
In light of these arguments, the atonement emerges as not only ethically tenable but also necessary and profound. It satisfies the demands of justice while offering reconciliation to all, without coercion or contradiction. The atonement of Christ is not just a theological doctrine — it is the most rational and ethically sound solution to the problem of sin, grounded in both divine justice and the highest expression of love. Given the overwhelming consistency of these truths, it becomes clear that the atonement is not only justified but is the only logically coherent resolution to humanity’s estrangement from God. Through His sacrifice, Christ achieved what no human could — a perfect reconciliation between justice and mercy.
I would like to thank my opponent, Catholic Apologetics, for this debate. I first suggested this topic in a forum post, and they agreed to debate this topic with me. May it prove to be an intelligent and productive conversation!
As a brief preface, I will say that I am not Catholic myself, nor have I ever been a member of the Catholic church, so I may make some mistakes regarding Catholic doctrines. I will try my best to avoid this, but even so, I do not believe that any small doctrinal errors I make will have any substantial impacts on the weight of my arguments.
The Necessity Defense
Christianity as a religion has many different denominations, some of which deny doctrines that others consider to be unquestionably true. For example, I was raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, a group that does not believe in the Trinity, which is considered to be a serious heresy by most other Christian denominations. And yet, virtually all faithful Christians can agree on these fundamental points:
- Jesus Christ died as a sacrifice so that the sins of humanity could be forgiven.
- Jesus had never sinned, and therefore had done nothing to be deserving of death.
- Jesus's death was part of God's plan.
Naturally, this seems to be pretty clearly wrong -- how could someone who had done nothing to deserve death, nor any sort of punishment whatsoever, be killed, and yet God's plan for this could be perfectly ethical and justified? The Christian response is generally that it was truly necessary. However, I would like to examine the arguments for the necessity of Jesus's sacrifice closely and reveal how they don't quite stack up under scrutiny.
To Be Willing and Able
Observe that to be willing and able is to do. If anyone ever does not carry out a certain action, either they were unwilling or unable to do so (or both unwilling and unable). If someone ever is willing to do X, whatever X may be, and does not, either something prevented them from doing so, or they were not really willing to do it at that particular time; thus, they were unwilling to do X then. This is relevant, because if one is to accept that the sacrifice of Jesus was necessary for salvation, then God must have been either unwilling or unable to grant reconciliation to humanity without it.
Is it possible, then, that God was willing, but merely unable? Put simply, no. It is a basic, fundamental doctrine of Christianity that God is omnipotent, the Almighty, able to do all things. If it were in his will to forgive the sins of humanity without a sacrifice, surely it would be within his power.
Even putting matters of omnipotence aside, however, note that forgiveness is purely a mental act -- all that is necessary to be able to forgive someone is to be willing. To be willing to forgive a person for a transgression is to be able to forgive them, and to be willing and able is to do. Therefore, we can categorically say that God did not fail to forgive the sins of humanity merely because he was unable to -- he must have been unwilling to do so. This is highly consequential, as if the sacrifice of Jesus, God's only son, was not truly necessary, then it was gratuitous suffering -- a gratuitous evil. I believe it is self-evident that intentionally causing gratuitous suffering is inherently a moral wrong, which would render the doctrine of Atonement ethically untenable.
I believe this argument to be sufficient to serve as my entire case, but in the interest of really delving into the topic and covering all my bases (so to speak), I will add more arguments.
Manufactured Necessity
The argument that Jesus's sacrifice was necessary in the broader context is a sort of affirmative defense, one which plainly states that the alleged actions, which are generally illegal or immoral, are factually true and actually happened, but that the context mitigates or even justifies them. For example, historically speaking, those who were abducted by maritime pirates and forced into piracy against their will would generally be pardoned for their crimes upon being repatriated, so long as they never killed. In a modern legal system, such a defendant could use the duress defense. The necessity defense, which states that some illegal action was necessary to prevent a greater harm, also exists. For instance, firefighters destroying private property to create a fire break is generally protected under law, even though it would be illegal and lead to civil liability under normal circumstances.
However, duress and necessity have one thing in common under the law: you cannot use such a defense if you knowingly created the situation that would make such a defense necessary in the first place. One who intentionally sets a fire is not off the hook for blowing up their neighbor's house to create a fire break. In the words of Nathan Burney, "There's no such thing as a Chutzpah Defense." And while it is true that what is legal or illegal is not necessarily equivalent to what is moral or immoral, I think we can all agree that such a limitation ought to be accepted, or else we would have to accept people not being responsible for the non-immediate consequences of their own actions.
So, why do I bring this up? Put simply, even if we put aside the arguments I made in my last section and assume that the sacrifice of Jesus truly was necessary, we must examine exactly why it was necessary. My opponent explains it like so:
In the Book of Genesis, we read of the first humans, Adam and Eve, living in perfect harmony with God in the Garden of Eden. However, their choice to disobey God by eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (Genesis 3:1-6) introduced the experience of sin into the world. This act of disobedience, known as Original Sin, caused a rupture in their relationship with God. As a result, humanity became estranged from God, and the harmony of creation was broken.
Simple enough, I suppose, but this raises some important questions, namely: Why was such a tree made in the first place? One must think about the context here: God made the Tree, knowing that if Adam and Eve ate from it, they would be introducing sin into the world, irreparably so except through divine intervention.
. . .sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned
It is obvious that God must have known that, if humans had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge, which they easily could have done so, sin and death would spread to all their descendants. Not only must God have known that, he must have intended for that to have been the consequences, for he created everything in our universe, including the Tree. Furthermore, he must have known from the outset that the only way for sinful humans to be reconciled to God was for a divine sacrifice to be made -- that of Jesus. Essentially, God knowingly and intentionally created the situation that made the death of a perfect, sinless human who deserved no harm necessary.
Even if one accepts that God, despite being omniscient, could not have known for a certainty that Adam and Eve would eat from the tree at all, one must still accept that God knew about and deliberately planned for this event. To say that God's actions thereafter were justified in context is to affirm the "Chutzpah defense". I believe we should do no such thing.
Calculate lim x→∞
I have one final main argument that I would like to make. Suppose, for a moment, that I were to steal $100 from a homeless man with only $100 to his name. I then proceed to steal the same amount of money from someone with $1,000. Lastly, I somehow manage to steal $100 from Elon Musk, currently (as of the time of writing) the wealthiest person in the world, with a net worth of 264 billion US Dollars. I ask my opponent, and would like the readers of this debate to answer for themselves: are all three transgressions equally wrong? If not, which was the worst, and which was the least bad?
I think the vast majority of people would agree that, all other things being equal, stealing all the money that a homeless person has is far, far worse than stealing a small amount from the richest person alive. $100 is only a trivial fraction of Musk's net worth after all, but it can be hugely consequential to a person with no means. This is a basic concept, that the seriousness of one's immoral actions is proportional to their consequences, and not merely based on what type of wrongdoing is committed. Despite this, my opponent claims (and many Christians would agree that),
Sin, by its nature, is an offense against God, who is infinitely good. Therefore, the offense requires a satisfaction of infinite value.
This is truly an extraordinary claim. I mean no insult to my opponent for what I am about to say. I wished to debate them as I believe they are a very skilled debater, one of the best who is somewhat active in debating on this site, and probably the best currently active debater on DART who is a Christian. However, I believe there are certain tenets in Christianity, as well as the other Abrahamic religions, that most practicioners believe, not because they have independently looked at the reasoning behind them and found it to be sound, but because they wish to continue to believe in their religion, and so they start with the conclusion in mind that "My religion and denomination are correct, and there is therefore a perfectly reasonable explanation and justification for everything," and end up working backwards from the conclusion instead of forwards from the givens. This quote directly from Pro is a prime example of this, in my opinion. I understand that it is a fundamental tenet of Christianity, and it is the usual justification for how infinite torture in Hell could be justified. What I do not understand is, how it could be so readily accepted by so many.
This sort of Christian morality completely flips the ordinary standards which everyone can intuit and believe in and asks us to believe in something which is, in my opinion, completely absurd. It shifts the idea that the severity of a wrongdoing is proportional to its (real or intended) consequences to the idea that it is based on the worth of the person being wronged. It is akin to saying that committing some crime against Elon Musk requires a response equivalent to about 264,000,000,000 USD, since that is what he is worth, financially speaking. Meanwhile, committing some crime against someone with no money or earthly possessions aside from the clothes on their back would require essentially no repayment. Frankly, I do not feel the need to explain why such a system is ethically untenable, and I should hope that the voters will agree.
Thinking logically, it should be clear that God, as an Almighty, omnipotent being, transcending all human and even physical limitations, cannot be meaningfully harmed by humans in any way. As the input of a decreasing exponential function tends toward infinity, the output tend toward zero. The less someone is harmed by an offense, the less severe the offense is. Therefore, the idea that doing something which God forbids saddles an infinite debt upon the debtor is, in my opinion, patently absurd.
But even if I were to accept an infinite debt being given for a finite crime, I must still examine why such a debt was incurred in the first place. In the end, it is God himself and no one else who sets the punishment for sin. This ties into my first two main bodies: If God wanted to forgive our sins freely, he could have simply done so by simply willing it. However, he clearly was not willing to do so. If God did not want all humans to be born imperfect and sinful, he could have simply made it so that eating from the Tree of Knowledge would not spread sin to all humanity, or he could have simply not made the Tree in the first place. But instead, he made it so that all humans would be sinful and therefore be saddled with an infinite debt. One can only conclude that, although he considered himself to be infinitely superior to his own living creations such that they could commit infinitely bad offenses against him, God wasn't actually interested in making sure that wouldn't continue to happen over and over again, by literally every single human ever from Adam and Eve until the Battle of Armageddon (if one believes that such an event will happen in the first place). It's quite paradoxical. Frankly, I don't feel that I can rationally accept such a doctrine.
Conclusion
As I have shown, the Christian defense for the doctrine of Atonement rests on necessity. However, looking closer, we find reason to believe that this supposed necessity was not truly present, and even if it was, it was a manufactured necessity. It is not something that a rational person ought to find ethically tenable. As I have demonstrated, using basic moral principles applied fairly and consistently reveals the flawed nature of Christian morality. Though they are a skilled writer, Pro has not upheld their burden of proof.
Thank you for taking the time to read this debate! I yield the floor.
Round 2
INTRODUCTION.
Welcome, all readers, to the debate's middle point — the second round. Before addressing my opponent's arguments, I would first like to express my sincerest gratitude. Thank you, Casey, for having taken the time to thoughtfully compose a response. I understand you are involved in another debate as well, so I respect your ability to delegate time accordingly and be able to participate in both debates simultaneously. From your arguments, I can tell you are highly intelligent and I commend you for your work. I look forward to continue this exchange with you!
On a separate note, my opponent has raised key concerns regarding the atonement of Jesus. I would not consider them "counter-arguments" so much as "misunderstandings." Some of the objections brought up stem from a lack of knowledge about Catholicism. Certain objections reflect a lack of familiarity with the nuances of the faith. My opponent has stated that they are not fully familiar with Catholic doctrines. He states, "I may make some mistakes regarding Catholic doctrines. I will try my best to avoid this, but even so, I do not believe that any small doctrinal errors I make will have any substantial impacts on the weight of my arguments." I wish this were the case, but the errors brought up are not "small," they certainly do have a "substantial impact." Which is why I must preface that this round will be mostly a clarification of Church teachings, ensuring that all who read may understand.
PREREQUISITE.
My opponent's argument centered on questioning the necessity of Jesus' sacrifice and the nature of sin, but they failed to address the arguments presented in the first Round. It seems they have almost entirely ignored the arguments presented. Specifically, they did not engage with the concept of divine justice and mercy that underpins the necessity of the Atonement. While I emphasized that Jesus’ sacrifice was voluntary and that He took upon Himself the punishment for our sins, they did not consider how this reflects both God's mercy and justice. Additionally, my opponent did not address how Jesus' death saves us from hell and provides not just forgiveness, but also reconciliation and renewal. They overlooked the crucial role of free will in humanity's fall into sin and how Christ's sacrifice respects and upholds that free will. These omissions leave significant gaps in their argument, as they do not fully acknowledge the complexity of God's plan for redemption as articulated in Christian doctrine. As a result, my opponent has failed to address any of my arguments in the first Round. I suggest they finally address them in the next round.
COUNTER-ARGUMENTS.
how could someone who had done nothing to deserve death, nor any sort of punishment whatsoever, be killed, and yet God's plan for this could be perfectly ethical and justified? The Christian response is generally that it was truly necessary
This question was addressed as a part of my main points during the first round (see Round 1, Main Body #2). The claim that someone who did nothing to deserve death cannot be justifiably killed overlooks the fundamental Christian belief in the concept of vicarious atonement. Jesus willingly chose to bear the punishment for humanity’s sins, not because He deserved it, but out of profound love and mercy. This act was not merely a response to a moral obligation but an expression of God’s justice and grace. The sacrifice was necessary to fulfill the requirement of justice while simultaneously demonstrating God's deep compassion for humanity.
if one is to accept that the sacrifice of Jesus was necessary for salvation, then God must have been either unwilling or unable to grant reconciliation to humanity without it.
The affirmation that Jesus’ death satisfied for our sins does not logically entail that it was the only possible way for our sins to be satisfied. To argue that, if Jesus did not die, sin could not be forgiven would be to commit the fallacy of negating the antecedent (if A, then B; not A; therefore, not B). Given God's omnipotence, He can bring about any good that does not involve a logical contradiction. As the angel Gabriel tells Mary, “For nothing will be impossible with God” (Luke 1:37). The notion that God could remit sin in a way other than Jesus’ death does not entail a contradiction. Therefore, as St. Thomas Aquinas concludes, “it was possible for God to deliver mankind otherwise than by the passion of Christ” (Summa Theologiae III, Q. 46, Art. 2). Sin is, fundamentally, a personal offense against God. As David says in his psalm of repentance: “Against you, you alone, have I sinned” (Psalm 41:4).
Given God's omnipotence and His unending love for humanity, it would be misguided to claim that God was either "unwilling" or "unable" to grant reconciliation without the crucifixion. While the death of Jesus was not the only possible way for God to redeem humanity, it was, in His infinite wisdom, the most fitting and perfect means within His divine plan. His sacrifice aligns with God’s greater purpose of revealing profound truths about Himself.
Jesus' death on the cross manifests God's justice, for it satisfied the debt of sin that humanity could not repay (ST III, Q. 46, Art. 1). It also demonstrates God's mercy, for as Aquinas notes, “man of himself could not satisfy for the sin of all human nature” (ST III, Q. 46, Art. 1). Above all, Jesus' death reveals the depths of God's love for us. As Jesus Himself teaches, “No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.” (John 15:13). St. Paul echoes this, saying, “But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us.” (Romans 5:8). Christ’s death serves multiple purposes beyond satisfaction for sin. It is a powerful example of virtue, particularly obedience, humility, constancy, and justice (ST III, Q. 46, Art. 3). As Peter writes, “Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you should follow in his steps.” (1 Peter 2:21). By dying on the cross, Jesus also teaches us to die to sin and our carnal desires, as St. Paul says: “The death he died, he died to sin, once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.” (Romans 6:10-11). The horror of His crucifixion vividly portrays the ugliness of sin, motivating us to turn away from sin and pursue holiness (ST III, Q. 46, Art. 3).
Understanding the full depth and intricacy of the Atonement would require more than a debate — it would require a lifetime of study. For those interested in exploring the topic further, I recommend "The Crucifixion" by Fleming Rutledge and "A Community Called Atonement" by Scot McKnight. Nonetheless, it is clear that Jesus' vicarious atonement bears significant theological and moral weight. His death corrects our path, calling us to turn from wickedness and strive toward holiness.
if the sacrifice of Jesus, God's only son, was not truly necessary, then it was gratuitous suffering -- a gratuitous evil. I believe it is self-evident that intentionally causing gratuitous suffering is inherently a moral wrong, which would render the doctrine of Atonement ethically untenable.
The sacrifice of Jesus was necessary for humanity's redemption and reconciliation with God, but not in the sense that Jesus was the only conceivable method of achieving that redemption. God, in His infinite wisdom, could have chosen any number of ways to redeem humanity. However, in His divine plan, He chose the incarnation and sacrifice of Jesus as the most fitting means for our salvation. To view Christ’s suffering as gratuitous is to misunderstand the nature and purpose of the Atonement. Christ did not endure suffering without purpose; His sacrifice was the means by which humanity could be restored to communion with God. Far from being gratuitous, this suffering was voluntary, undertaken out of love as an act of vicarious atonement.
Therefore, it is not a moral wrong, but the ultimate expression of love and sacrifice. Jesus willingly bore the consequences of human sin, which would otherwise have resulted in eternal separation from God. This redemptive suffering served a profound purpose: it enabled humanity to be reconciled to the source of all life and goodness. Without this reconciliation, we remain cut off from God, the true source of life. This separation results in spiritual and moral decay, which manifests in personal brokenness, relational strife, and societal unrest.
Why was such a tree made in the first place? ... It is obvious that God must have known that, if humans had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge, which they easily could have done so, sin and death would spread to all their descendants.
There was nothing inherently magical or evil about the fruit of the Forbidden Tree. Rather, the sin of Adam and Eve resulted from their deliberate choice to disobey God's command. The tree was created with a purpose: it provided Adam and Eve the opportunity to exercise their free will by choosing either to trust in God’s loving authority or to reject it. The tree’s presence does not reflect cruelty or a desire to tempt humanity. Instead, it reflects God’s deep love for humanity, for true love must be freely chosen.
For a genuine relationship with God to exist, there must be the possibility of choosing that relationship — or rejecting it. If Adam and Eve had no option to disobey, their relationship with God would have been forced, rendering it inauthentic. Love cannot be forced, as love that is compelled ceases to be love. This is why God, in His wisdom, allowed for the possibility of disobedience through the tree. The tree itself symbolized the freedom to choose, and this freedom is essential to human dignity and the nature of love.
God’s foreknowledge does not mean He caused Adam and Eve’s disobedience. As St. Thomas Aquinas explains, God’s knowledge of future events does not remove human free will or make God the cause of sin (ST, I, Q. 14, Art. 13). God foreknew their choice, but it was entirely their own decision. He allowed the possibility of sin so that humanity could freely choose to love and obey Him, which makes the relationship real and meaningful. The ensuing effects of Adam and Eve’s choice — the Fall and separation from God — were the result of their free will, not God’s will. If the tree had not existed, Adam and Eve would have lived in a world without the ability to make meaningful choices, and their love for God would have been inauthentic. God desires a true relationship with His creation, one rooted in love and freedom. Love that is forced or necessitated is not love at all, and for love to be genuine, there must always be the possibility of choosing against it. This is why the Tree of Knowledge was essential, for it gave humanity the freedom to love God authentically.
God knowingly and intentionally created the situation that made the death of a perfect, sinless human who deserved no harm necessary.
Just as God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, He also knew that He would send His Son to die for the sins of the world. This was not a reaction to human sin but part of His eternal plan to save humanity, demonstrating His boundless love. As St. Paul tells us in Romans 5:8, “But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us.” This verse reveals the depth of God's love — He loved us not because we were deserving, but despite our sinfulness. God’s foreknowledge of sin does not mean He caused it or desired it. Rather, He permitted sin to enter the world so that a greater good could come from it: the redemption of humanity through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. As St. Augustine says, "God judged it better to bring good out of evil than not to permit any evil to exist" (Enchiridion, Chapter 11). God’s plan was always one of love and salvation, foreseeing both the Fall and the way He would redeem humanity through His Son.
From the moment of creation, God was willing to sacrifice Himself for us, even though we are infinitely undeserving of His grace. He loves us before we can even respond to Him in love. As 1 John 4:19 tells us, “We love because he first loved us.” The sacrifice of Jesus was not an afterthought or a reluctant necessity, but the greatest expression of divine love, freely given so that we might be reconciled to God. In creating a world where free will exists, God allowed for the possibility of sin, knowing that He would ultimately bring about redemption through Christ. His willingness to take on human suffering through the death of His Son shows just how deeply He desires to restore our relationship with Him. This act of self-giving love is not an act of cruelty but the ultimate expression of mercy and love, revealing that God’s plan for salvation was always in place, even before we knew we needed it.
stealing all the money that a homeless person has is far, far worse than stealing a small amount from the richest person alive. $100 is only a trivial fraction of Musk's net worth after all, but it can be hugely consequential to a person with no means.
My opponent attempts to misinterpret my position by quoting: "Sin, by its nature, is an offense against God, who is infinitely good. Therefore, the offense requires a satisfaction of infinite value." They claim that my stance is that "all sins are equal," but this is a misunderstanding of what I actually said. My point is that because God is infinite in being, any offense against Him requires a satisfaction of infinite value. This is not the same as claiming that all sins are equal.
Sin, regardless of its perceived magnitude, separates us from God, who is infinite in His holiness. Therefore, even what we consider minor sins can have profound spiritual implications because of the infinite nature of the One we offend. Since God is infinite in His goodness and holiness, any sin, no matter how small, creates a separation between the sinner and God. This separation reflects the infinite gap between human imperfection and God's infinite perfection. Even the smallest sin disrupts the relationship with God. However, this does not mean that all sins are equal in their gravity or consequences. Thought not a perfect analogy, imagine sins as cars, with some being much more expensive than others. Even though some cars cost more, the problem is that we are broke and can't afford any of them — whether cheap or expensive. The same goes for sin: while some sins are more serious than others, any sin creates a separation from God, and we lack the ability to bridge that gap on our own. We need God's grace, offered through Christ, to repair that relationship, no matter the severity of the sin.
Catholic moral theology recognizes the distinction between the objective gravity of sin and its circumstantial effects on people and society. This is why the Church differentiates between mortal and venial sins, as well as between the severity of particular acts within the broader category of sin. For a sin to be mortal, it must involve grave matter, be committed with full knowledge, and done with deliberate consent (CCC 1857-1859). Stealing can be a mortal sin if these conditions are met. However, the circumstances, including the impact on others, help determine the gravity of the sin. While every sin is an offense against God, and thus requires some form of divine satisfaction (which is why Christ’s atonement is central), Catholic teaching still considers the effect of sin on others. The Catechism explains that sins also cause harm to people, and part of moral evaluation is assessing that harm in a concrete sense (CCC 2484). For example, stealing a poor person’s last $100 would cause far more harm to their livelihood than stealing the same amount from a billionaire, and this increased harm worsens the sin in a practical, moral sense.
Therefore, the statement about sin offending God infinitely is true in the sense that all sins rupture our relationship with God, and this separation reflects the infinite gap. But the gravity of each sin's effects on others also plays a role in how culpable or grave the act is in particular situations. This is why Catholic teaching does not view all sins as equal in terms of earthly consequences, even though they all require infinite reconciliation with God. While the consequences of sin may differ in earthly terms, all sin necessitates atonement to restore the relationship with God.
CONCLUSION.
In conclusion, the death of Jesus Christ remains the most influential moment of all of history. It remains the pinnacle of human experience — the epitome of love itself. His sacrifice is not only a historical certainty but the triumph over death and decay. The love manifested in the vicarious atonement is a type of love rarely replicated. Though not the only way to conquer sin, God chose to sacrifice Himself for the sakes of you and I. Notably, He wanted to sacrifice Himself for us, before we ever began to exist. Since we were just a thought in God's convoluted mind, His love resonated so profoundly that He created all that is around so we could exist. God created much more than is currently scientifically understood, all in the pursuit of our creation. He created the Forbidden Tree, not out of malicious intent, but out of the intense love He has for us. What is love if not chosen? A counterfeit replica? Affection? Despite the measures He took in creating us, He nevertheless granted us the gracious choice to reject Him. Adam and Eve did reject Him. As a result, evil sprouted in the world, not out God's culpability, but out of Adam and Eve's. God's foreknowledge bears no weight in this situation, for foreknowledge is not the cause of action. While God knew Adam and Eve would fall, His knowledge did not force their hand. Instead, He provided humanity with free will — the capacity to choose love or reject it, to obey or disobey. In doing so, He allowed love to be authentic, because love cannot exist without freedom.
In the heart of this debate lies a truth that transcends words — a truth that resonates deep within the core of human existence: the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is not only a testament to God’s justice but also a profound expression of divine love. To argue that His death was unnecessary or gratuitous is to misunderstand the nature of love itself. Love is not about mere obligation, but about freely giving, even when it costs everything. Jesus, in His infinite love, chose to suffer for us — not because it was the only possible way, but because it was the most perfect way to reveal God’s mercy and justice in one harmonious act. Through the cross, the ugliness of sin is laid bare, and yet, so is the beauty of redemption. Every wound borne by Christ, every drop of blood shed, was a declaration of love — a love so powerful that it shattered the chains of sin and death, and opened the gates of eternal life for all who would accept it. His sacrifice was not a loss, but a triumph. It was not needless suffering, but the ultimate victory of love over evil, of life over death.
This is the heart of the Gospel: God loved us so much that He was willing to enter into our pain, to take on the full weight of our sin, and to conquer it once and for all. There is no greater love than this. In denying the necessity or beauty of Christ’s sacrifice, one risks overlooking the magnitude of what was accomplished. It was not an arbitrary event in history, but the very hinge on which the fate of humanity turned. It was the moment where justice met mercy, and where eternal life was made possible for every soul. Consider, then, not only the logic of this truth, but its emotional weight. A God who loves you so much that He would die for you is a God worth knowing, a truth worth embracing. Jesus did not suffer in vain; He suffered for you, for me, for all of us — to restore what was lost and to offer hope where there was none. His love calls us to respond, to recognize the price that was paid, and to turn toward the One who gave everything for our sake. Let this truth sink into your heart: the cross is not a symbol of defeat, but of love’s greatest triumph. It stands as an eternal reminder that even in our darkest moments, we are never beyond the reach of God’s grace. And it is this grace, freely offered, that beckons you now to consider the depths of what has been given. In the end, it is not merely an intellectual exercise to debate the necessity of Christ’s sacrifice — it is a matter of life and death, of love and salvation. Choose wisely, for in this choice lies eternity.
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Round 3
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