1500
rating
4
debates
12.5%
won
Topic
#6109
All truth exists
Status
Debating
Waiting for the next argument from the contender.
Round will be automatically forfeited in:
00
DD
:
00
HH
:
00
MM
:
00
SS
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 2
- Time for argument
- Two days
- Max argument characters
- 5,000
- Voting period
- Two weeks
- Point system
- Winner selection
- Voting system
- Open
1500
rating
0
debates
0.0%
won
Description
Burden of proof is on Pro to prove that all truth exists.
Round 1
I.
The topic is all truth exists, which means all truth exists now. Any truth my opponent posts in his round might not exist after his rounds when voters read them, or before the round, or during my round. So essentially, his case is impossible to prove because "now" changes constantly, and essentially, voters cannot know if words my opponent posts are still true after his round. Since it is not possible for voter to read opponent's round instantly when he posts it, voter has no way of knowing if things my opponent said are true now when voter reads them.
II.
Should my opponent appeal to tautology of definition, then my opponent considers law of identity as part of "all truth".
Thus, my opponent must prove that law of identity exists. That means, he must prove that law of identity is true. Law of identity is a claim which says that thing is equal to itself. So, "A=A".
If we say "A = A", then another law follows directly: "Claims can either be true or not true".
This is tautology per law of identity, because "truth = truth", and thus "not truth =/= truth". We cannot say that "truth = not truth", because not truth is different from truth and then truth wouldnt be truth (truth =/= truth) and law of identity wouldnt be followed.
So these claims follow:
1. Claim must be true or not true.
2. "Law of identity exists" is a claim
3. "Law of identity exists" can only be true or not true.
4. To prove claim true would require proof which exists independently of the claim, because A cannot prove A, as that is circular.
5. Things independent of Law of identity would be non-truth by definition.
6. Thus, only non-truth can prove law of identity.
7. Thus, law of identity cannot be proved
If my opponent agrees with these premises, he concedes that truth cannot be proved to exist.
However, if he disagrees with these premises, he goes against truth.
1, 2, 3 and 4 are basic truth he needs to prove his case. But they logically lead to 5, 6 and 7 which disprove his case.
Thus, he can neither agree nor disagree with any of 7 premises.
Same works with all truth:
1. Claim must be true or not true.
2. "All truth exists" is a claim
3. "All truth exists" can only be true or not true.
4. To prove claim true would require proof which exists independently of the claim, because A cannot prove A, as that is circular.
5. Things independent of all truth would be not truth by definition.
6. Thus, only not truth can prove truth.
7. Thus, truth cannot be proved
Thus, the only proof my opponent could come up with is not truth, which then disproves his case.
Should my opponent say that "A proves A" is valid reasoning, then me saying "Topic is wrong proves that topic is wrong" would disprove topic.
There are only 2 options in total in opponent's case here:
1. All truth is proved by truth
2. All truth is proved by non-truth
1 is circular reasoning fallacy where truth proves truth (A proves A fallacy), and 2 is impossible.
III.
My opponent might try to use observation as proof that all truth exists.
But that is faced with 3 problems:
1. Not all things we see are true (dreams, hallucinations)
2. Not all truth is observed
3. Observation cannot be proved to be true
These 3 problems essentially disprove observation proof. And with truth depending on system of gaining knowledge as well, and that system depending on observation, and observation being impossible to be proved true, it follows that opponent's case collapses here too.
IV.
This is the core argument which destroys whole opponent's case.
System for determining truth is a system which determines all what is true and all what isnt.
Humans are such systems, as they determine what is true and what isnt.
Likewise, my opponent here would need a system for determining truth if he were to determine truth of topic at all.
The problem which rises, comes from a very simple question: How does such a system determine itself as true?
A simple, yet impossible to answer.
1. System for determining truth determines all truth
2. Such system must be true in order to determine all truth.
3. In order for such system to be true, it must be able to determine itself as true
4. To determine itself as true, it would have to be able to prove itself. So this would mean: "System determined that system is true."
-This violates "A cannot be used to prove A" law of logic. It makes system use circular logic which can also be used to prove opposite case.
5. But now, to prove itself, system has to determine if the claim "A system determined that system is true" is true.
6. Now, a new claim is created by system: "System determined that the claim "A system determined that system is true" is true.
7. But now, same problem repeats, as another claim is made. Now system must prove that the claim "System determined that the claim "A system determined that system is true" is true." is true.
8. For each claim system says it proved, it creates a new claim which it again must prove, and this never stops, making it impossible for system to prove itself.
9. In conclusion, for each claim system says it proved, it creates a new claim which it must prove, making proving anything impossible. So when claim A needs claim B to be true, and claim B needs claim C, and claim C needs claim D...ect. it is not possible to ever prove original claim.
Thus, with observation disproved and tautology disproved, opponent has nothing to build his case on, and problem of system of determining truth just seals the deal. My opponent must use truth to prove all truth, so his case is circular logic fallacy where he uses thing he is trying to prove as proof for thing he is trying to prove.
I'd like to preface this by saying that this is my first time debating on this platform (and debating in general), and I'm not entirely sure of the “culture” or manner of debate conduction here but I'm gonna shoot my best shot to disprove my opponents claims, sooo here ya go:
I. The opponents first argument hinges on the idea that because “now” constantly changes, we can’t say “all truth exists.” But this is a fundamental misinterpretation of what the resolution means. “All truth exists” does not mean that all truths must exist simultaneously in every single moment of time. It means that if something is true at any point in time, it is true that it existed or occurred. Temporal truths are still truths.
For example, “Julius Caesar was assassinated” is a past truth. It’s no longer happening now, but it is true that it happened. The truth value of the statement remains. To deny this is to say history contains no truths, an absurd stance. If "truth" changes just because time passes, then all knowledge becomes meaningless.
II. My opponent argues that using the law of identity (A = A) to defend truth is circular. But ironically, their argument collapses under its own weight. They say we can’t use “truth” to prove truth, but they themselves rely on logical rules like the law of non-contradiction and identity to even argue that circular reasoning is fallacious. If they reject tautologies, they lose the foundation of their own reasoning.
Also, premise 4 of their argument, the idea that something can’t prove itself, isn’t a solid or universally accepted rule. In fact, certain basic statements are accepted as true precisely because they prove themselves. Take “A = A,” for example. It doesn’t need outside evidence to be accepted; its truth is built into the meaning of the statement. This kind of self-evident reasoning is how logic works at its core: all logical systems begin with some basic starting points that are simply accepted as true without needing further proof. These foundational truths make it possible for the rest of the system to function. Without them, we’d be stuck in an endless loop of trying to prove every single thing using something else, which would make reasoning impossible. So when my opponent says that something proving itself is always invalid, they’re applying that standard unfairly and ignoring how logic is actually structured.
III. Opponent claims that observation can’t be trusted because of hallucinations and dreams. But we don’t claim that every observation is true—only that observation, when refined through the scientific method or repeatable verification, produces reliable truths. For instance, the boiling point of water is not “subjective” just because someone once hallucinated lava in a sink. We verify observations through repeatability and consensus, not one-off perception.
Moreover, if observation is wholly invalid, then their own observations, of language, of reasoning, of any knowledge, must also be invalid. They undermine their own framework again.
IV. My opponent claims that truth cannot be proven because every proof leads to another, creating an infinite regress. However, this view overlooks how epistemic justification actually works. In logic and philosophy, we don’t rely on an endless chain of reasoning to establish truth. Instead, we work with foundational beliefs; basic, self-evident truths like “I exist” or “A equals A”; that are accepted without needing further proof. These fundamental truths serve as the starting points upon which all other knowledge is built.
This is not an arbitrary or unproven assumption; it’s supported by both coherence theory (beliefs are justified by how well they fit into a consistent system) and foundationalism (certain self-evident truths ground all further reasoning). Without these starting points, we would be stuck in an infinite loop, unable to prove anything, including my opponent’s own claims.
If we accept my opponent’s premise that truth requires an infinite chain of justification, we arrive at self-defeating skepticism. Their position would imply that no claim can ever be justified without an endless regress. But by that same logic, their claim that “truth cannot be proven” itself becomes unjustified, because it, too, would require an infinite chain of reasoning to be considered true. This weakens their argument by revealing a contradiction: their claim that truth can never be proven is itself impossible to prove based on the standards they set.
V. Let’s be clear: the resolution is “All truth exists.” That’s a metaphysical claim about truth’s existence, not about our ability to prove every single truth. My opponent is playing a rhetorical trick—confusing ontology with epistemology. Just because something can’t be perfectly proven doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
For instance, we may not be able to prove the exact number of stars in the universe, but that doesn’t mean the number doesn’t exist. To argue otherwise is like saying “We can’t see air, so it doesn’t exist.” It’s not persuasive; it’s deliberately evasive.
Conclusion: Every one of my opponent’s arguments undercuts itself. They deny tautology but rely on it. They dismiss observation but use it. They demand infinite proof but give none. Their reasoning is internally incoherent, externally unworkable, and strategically evasive.
In contrast, my position affirms that truth, whether mathematical, historical, logical, or empirical, does exist. It may not always be known, but its existence is the necessary foundation for all thought, debate, and logic; including this one.
Round 2
something can’t be perfectly proven doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist
My opponent concedes that he cant prove his claim.
beliefs are justified by how well they fit into a consistent system
"truth doesnt exist" cannot ever be inconsistent as contradictions wouldnt exist to create inconsistency.
self-evident
Self-evident doesnt exist, as claims need proof. You cant determine what doesnt need proof, so position is inconsistent. I can say that "truth doesnt exist" is self-evident truth (if truth doesnt exist, I cant ever contradict myself) and doesnt need proof, thus topic disproved.
"A=A" proving "A=A" is circular.
Two positions
1. Circular reasoning is valid
2. Circular reasoning is invalid
Should my opponent accept 1, he commits a contradiction because circular reasoning can be used to argue against itself: circular reasoning is wrong because circular reasoning is wrong. It can be used to disprove topic: all truth doesnt exist now because all truth doesnt exist now.
If my opponent accepts 2, that circular logic is invalid, he commits a contradiction again, because he is here using logic to prove logic, using truth to prove truth, using "A=A" to prove "A=A".
My opponent must prove "A=A" to be true. He agreed to.
No proof for "A=A", and contradictions if "A=A" is accepted as true without proof are showing that it is not true.
2 options
1. You can accept something as true without proof
2. You cant accept something as true without proof
1 is a concession that position is not proved, and 2 doesnt allow us to accept "A=A"
If we accept "A=A", we end up with conclusion that we accepted "A=A" without proof.
true because they prove themselves.
My opponent accepted circular logic as true foundation, which disproves topic then. He says "A is true because A is true" is valid.
So it is true that all truth doesnt exist now because all truth doesnt exist.
doesn’t need outside evidence
So no outside proof provided. Circular logic is false, so "A=A" cannot prove itself, and has no outside proof, so "A=A" cannot be proved.
truth built into meaning
If "A=A" is defined as truth, if truth is defined as "A=A", then my opponent is again saying "A=A" proves "A=A" true, or truth proves truth true. That is circular reasoning. I can say truth proves truth false. I can say God proves God true. Such logic cannot prove anything, because it can be used to prove anything, even opposite things.
starting points are accepted
My opponent is saying that accepting something as true proves it true. So I accept "truth doesnt exist now" as true, thus I disprove topic.
foundational truths make possible the rest of the system
"All truth" includes foundational truth. Foundational isnt proved true. System function doesnt prove foundational truth true. It is circular reasoning: Foundational truth proves rest of system true, rest of system proves foundational truth true. Its like saying God proves Bible, Bible proves God.
prove every single thing using something else would make reasoning impossible
Every single thing can only be proved using something else or using itself.
Now you say that without that flawed circular reasoning, reasoning is impossible. If you need flawed circular reasoning to make reasoning possible, all reasoning is flawed, mine and yours, thus truth doesnt exist and topic fails.
My opponent says it is okay to use circular reasoning in one case, but not in other. So his fundamental reasoning is inconsistent and contradictive.
ignoring how logic is actually structured
Structure of logic is part of logic.
If structure of logic is proof for logic, what is proof for structure of logic?
observation through scientific method or repeatable verification
My opponent concedes that truth is produced by observation. So observation itself cannot be proved by truth. All other truth depends on observation, observation itself cannot prove itself true.
verify observations through repeatability and consensus
So you verify observations with observarions - circular reasoning. Both consensus and repeatability are themselves dependent on observation.
if observation is invalid, then their own observations must be invalid
If both our cases are invalid, you lose, as burden of proof is on you to present a valid case. If your case isnt valid, I win.
To sum this up:
Description: Burden of proof is on Pro to prove that all truth exists.
He must use truth to prove that truth is true(exists). This is circular reasoning, where he uses the thing he is trying to prove as proof for thing he is trying to prove. Circular reasoning can likewise be used to disprove topic, thus it is flawed.
My opponent concedes that he needs a starting point which he cant prove without using circular logic.
And if we accept circular logic as ultimate truth, then opposite starting point "truth doesnt exist because truth doesnt exist" is true too, as well as "God exists because God exists", "Unicorns exist because unicorns exist". If we accept such thing, nothing makes sense.
So which one of these determines the truth:
Circular logic or "A=A"?
"A=A" to be true depends on circular logic, and circular logic, if true, disproves "A=A".
Accepting something as true without proof also disproves "A=A", since opposite case can be accepted without proof too.
My opponent said observation is proved by science, but actually, science relies on observation. You cant prove your senses using your senses, and you cant use anything else to prove them either. My opponent cant prove his arguments here as they all depend on senses, even our eyes used to read them. So proving senses true is impossible.
System for determining truth cannot ever prove itself as true, as that is pure circular reasoning.
Logic and "A=A" are such systems. They cant be proved.
My opponent can only prove his position with circular logic, yet circular logic at the same time disproves his position by being used to prove opposite position.
Not published yet
Alright.
Can you debate me after you have finished debate I accepted your challenge on the following forum “Most animals are persons”.
Well, sure, hard life for Pro. But definitions could greatly limit it.
I feel like this topic is very vague. Is it just me?