Instigator / Pro
9
1500
rating
0
debates
0.0%
won
Topic
#6111
quick unrated debate: The apostles were Messianic Jews as opposed to Christians.
Status
Voting
The participant that receives the most points from the voters is declared a winner.
Voting will end in:
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Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 2
- Time for argument
- Twelve hours
- Max argument characters
- 2,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
21
1500
rating
4
debates
75.0%
won
Description
No information
Round 1
Forfeited
Unfortunately my opponent has forfeited the first round. I will allow Pro to make the first argument and set up the case, and I wish him the best of luck.
Round 2
They were Jews and Luke wasnt an apostle even a secondary one that got added in like Paul.
Not only were all Apostles Jews but they still figured God was Yhwh and werent sure yet on trinity or that Jesus was God. Peter in fact douvted Jesus 3 times over even being the Messiah, let alone God.
They were all circumcised if male and none ate pork. It was suggested by Paul, who ironically was a severe Pharisee, that eating pork became okay as all meat was clean spiritually now.
They still faated the Jewish fast and upheld Yom Kippur etc. lenten fasting was come up with later on in Nicaea.
They were Jews still and while Paul maybe was evolving he was also the most sexist among them amd a severe traditionalist in other respects. Paul is why Catholics rule out female priesthood despite having Nuns that preach and teach.
None of them called tbemselves non-Jews. They didnt say the Christ had made Judaism false or outdated, they claimed Judaism was now fulfilled.
They saw Jesus as a Jewish Messiah for the Judaism religion and by their own definitions, what we now call Christianity would simply have been a Jewish sect that welcomed gentiles in. The issue is that since other Newish sects see it racially exclusive by bloodline, a new religion was needed.
First off, I would like to thank my opponent for having me in this debate.
Definitions:
My opponent has neglected to define key terms, so I will clarify for any unfamiliar voters.
The Apostles: The 12 disciples of Jesus who were written about in the New Testament gospels.
Messianic Jew: A person of Jewish heritage who believes in Jesus Christ as the Messiah.
Christian: A believer (of any heritage) in the sacrifice and teachings of Jesus Christ as the Messiah.
I would like to establish that the burden of proof weighs heavily on Pro. His official resolution is: "The apostles were Messianic Jews as opposed to Christians." The key word here is 'opposed', meaning he must prove that both:
1. The Apostles were Messianic Jews
2. The Apostles were not Christians
Arguments:
They were Jews and Luke wasnt an apostle even a secondary one that got added in like Paul.
While this isn't perfect English, my opponent seems to be saying that all the Apostles were Jewish.
Not only were all Apostles Jews but they still figured God was Yhwh and werent sure yet on trinity or that Jesus was God. Peter in fact douvted Jesus 3 times over even being the Messiah, let alone God.
This again is some rushed-looking English, but he says here that: 'The Apostles were Jews and they believed Jesus to be the Messiah. However they were confused by the trinity and some of them doubted for a long time whether Jesus was the Messiah or not.' He is again saying the Apostles were all Jews, and he is saying that they all eventually came to the conclusion that Jesus was the Messiah. This supports the claim that the Apostles were Messianic Jews, but does nothing to prove that they cannot be considered Christians as well.
Unfortunately, since my opponent chose a very low character limit, I am unable to address all of his arguments individually. However if you (the voters) look for yourselves, you will find that the rest of his arguments are trying to support that 'the Apostles were Jewish and engaged in Jewish customs' but never once say anything to prove that they weren't Christians as well. Honestly, I would say that he failed to even prove that the Apostles were Jewish, due to the fact that he provided no sources or quotes throughout his post. Thank you. That is all.
My vote is there is no opposition in what the topic statement says as long as "messianic jew" means a believer in the Messiah.
Vote?
Vote?
Oh hell yeah.
This is a debate of true substance