Instigator / Pro
4
1589
rating
218
debates
54.36%
won
Topic
#6143
Fate Zero: Kirei was the superior fighter in his duel against Emiya Kiritsugu.
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
3
Better sources
2
2
Better legibility
1
1
Better conduct
1
1
After 1 vote and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
whiteflame
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- Max argument characters
- 10,000
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- One month
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- 1,724
Contender / Con
7
1735
rating
28
debates
89.29%
won
Description
Me and whiteflame are debating about this fight.:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FDsOYtRwR5I&pp=ygUMI2tpcmVpa2VlbmFu
Both were fighting over The Holy Grail, but neither opponent claimed the victory because the fight was interrupted by external circumstances.
It is my belief that if nothing had interfered with the fight and it had continued, the odds favored Kirei.
Round 1
Pro
#1
Main Point
Kotomine Kirei is the better fighter between him and Emiya Kiritsugu, and this is a one-sided comparison.
- Emiya Kiritsugu is the one with the large hair, the gun, and the black leather trenchcoat.
- Kotomine Kirei is the short-haired guy with the crucifix and claw-like swords.
Winning Conditions
- I must compare their skills & abilities and show that Kirei is the better fighter of the two. While the description states that I believe the odds favor Kirei in this fight, this is a personal off-the-record admission that is unrelated to the resolution and will therefore not be considered an extension of my burden of proof.
- So voters and judges shall factor in the information. Which is this debate is not a discussion about Kirei or Kiritsugu's probability of success. The reason why is that arguing Kirei or Emiya Kiritsugu's chances at victory are off-topic. And victory or success is not always decided by skill alone, but by a combination of circumstances, such discussions raises the burden of either side which makes the resolution too difficult or impossible to discuss. The fight was interrupted by the shockwave that destroyed both fighters, and thus both participants were unable to continue.
- I am arguing that Kirei is the superior fighter in this fight, while Con is arguing the reverse. This makes this an on-balance debate where the burden of proof is shared.
I am not required to prove that Kirei would win, only that he was the better combatant. Those are the stipulations and framework that determine the outcome of this debate.
Context/Backstory: The fight begins with Kirei and Kiritsugu fighting it out to the death or The Holy Grail. But the fight is ended due to the roof collapsing on both of them, or an unrelated circumstance that ends it before each can show the full range & depth of their abilities.
But make no mistake, it’s no contest. The answer is clearly Kirei, and this is very obvious.
Avalon
For starters, Emiya Kiritsugu was clearly outmatched from the very beginning. The only reason he stood a chance is because of Avalon granting him healing powers. Like a Minecraft potion that refills your health bar, but Kiritsugu never uses it for offense. Just to recover. Which brings me to my first point.
Kirei killed Emiya Kiritsugu in this fight.
So at 0:42, . Emiya Kiritsugu is clearly unnerved and taken off-guard by Kirei charging at him, and how quick he is. To compensate, Emiya Kiritsugu uses his time alteration powers to slow down reality, giving him enough time to move out of the way of Kirei’s kicks. Kirei's kicks have skull-shattering force and would have splashed his brains all over the wall.
Despite time being slowed, Kirei is able to adjust by increasing the levels of his speed to react accordingly and blocks each of Kiritsugu’s rapid-fire shots with his swords.
Demonstrating quicker reflexes.
At 1:13, the time alteration ability is still in effect. Which means ideally, Emiya Kiritsugu should be able to avoid this next attack easily.
But that’s not what happens. Kirei’s punch lands, crushing Emiya Kiritsugu’s ribcage and launches Emiya into the backwall. Emiya Kiritsugu died from this strike.
The impact of Kirei’s punch turned Emiya’s heart and organs to mush, while shattering his bones. It’s only because of Avalon reviving Kiritsugu by healing the damage that he was even able to continue the fight.
But me and majority of the anime community already consider this punch an obvious demonstration of Kirei's combat abilities far exceeding Emiya Kiritsugu's own battle feats.
Stats & Reflexes
There exists a tiering hierarchy scale in which anime character are ranked from weakest to strongest, and there are different versions of this scale. According to topstrongestfandom.com, Kirei's attack potency, speed, and durability are all speculated to be higher than Emiya Kiritsugu's. With the rest of their abilities being the same level.
This means that according to the estimates, Kirei’s recorded stats demonstrate a moderate advantage in battle prowess over Kiritsugu. According to the weaknesses on the two sites for both enemies, Kirei has none while Emiya Kiritsugu destroys his body every-time he uses time acceleration. And he uses his time altering abilities quite repeatedly in this fight.
In the time-stamp, 1:29, Emiya Kiritsugu triples the time alteration effect and most opponents would never be able to stop Kiritsugu’s attacks. But with one arm and one eye, Kirei manages to block ALL of Kiritsugu’s attacks. Emiya Kiritsugu vs Kotomine Kirei I Fate Zero [60 FPS]
It is thought by some traditional martial arts experts that sight is not a requirement to fight, once certain skills have been mastered. Kiritsugu guesses and assumes that Kirei has the power to foresee and predict attacks before they happen.
Mentality
Kotomine Kirei has the psychological edge over Emiya Kiritsugu. Kiritsugu’s main weapon is reading his opponents and then weaponizing their weaknesses against them, but Kirei being a cold-hearted psychopath lacks any pleasure or passion and Kiritsugu is unable to get a read on him.
- This concept, according to Kiritusugu’s very admission, makes Kotomine Kirei his living nightmare. This is proven at 2:21. Emiya Kiritsugu, being a passionate idealist fights with conviction and commitment to his cause, but is limited by the restraints and weaknesses of his ideology, while Kirei’s ruthlessness and persistence make him more adaptable and flexible in this regard.
Kirei Kotomine is the finished product, who Emiya Kiritsugu could have become without his emotional attachments. Emiya Kiritsugu is trying desperately to shed his humanity to protect people, while Kirei is trying to live a normal life and live with purpose. Each fight with equal commitment, even if Kirei is not fighting for a specific cause. Emiya Kiritsugu himself is even confused why Kirei tries so hard. Kirei Kotomine is who everyone thinks Emiya Kiritsugu is, the ultimate killing machine.
Con
#2
Great start from my opponent, Sir.Lancelot. I don’t recall having done this type of debate before, but I’m excited to participate against such a big fan of the series who has clearly done his homework. Thank you for inviting me to do this and taking me out of retirement… at least for now.
Framework
I’ll start by reframing how this debate should be evaluated.
Pro’s framing is problematic because how he establishes that someone is the “superior fighter” lacks context. This isn’t a debate either of us can win by simply showing that one side outstrips the other in one or even multiple categories. All those do is demonstrate superiority in those categories. They can be factors in determining who is the superior fighter, but as I’ll show later, they’re not the only ones to consider. And many of these factors utilize distinct measuring sticks, e.g. how do we weigh the importance of excelling in strength vs. mentality? Pro provides no means to weigh different categories against one another, yet, according to Pro, we somehow have to do this without assessing likely outcomes.
Removing outcomes from the equation renders metrics devoid of meaning. This debate isn’t about who has a preponderance of skills anymore than it’s about who has the “best” single skill; it’s about whose skills are better in the aggregate qualitatively, and we need some way to determine that.
So I’m going to suggest a different tack: that we game out this fight, using the video that we have [1] as evidence for how much of the fight played out in one iteration, and assess how this fight is likely to play out over the course of several iterations (minus the cataclysm seen at the end of this fight) to decide who is the superior fighter. Pro did mention the issue of outside circumstances, but I will argue that how each fighter prepares for and adapts to these is a skill check. Outside of incidents that just end the fight on their own, these are tests of the participants. They aren’t a bug, they’re a feature.
Moreover, this isn’t a “no items, Final Destination” SSMB fight,[2] and can’t be treated as such, nor is what makes a superior fighter solely the capability to destroy your opponent in close combat. I will argue that anything that goes into improving a given fighter’s odds of victory, anything done or utilized deliberately towards that end during or even prior to the fight, necessarily demonstrates their superiority as well. As such, my bar for evaluating what makes a superior fighter is whoever creates the most opportunities to win this fight by permanently killing or incapacitating their foe.
With that out of the way, I’m going to spend this round on a deep dive into Kiritsugu and his strengths.
Tactics and Experience
Kiritsugu wields a variety of advanced combat tactics and, specifically, anti-magic tactics. He utilizes a mix of Magecraft and modern tools. He was trained in this regard by Natalia, a part-time Enforcer whose job was to hunt down and kill mages. He took this a step further, becoming “a ‘hunter’ that stops other heretical Magi”. He became skilled in assassination, wielding a wide variety of weapons, and various means of “catch[ing] up to his prey under all situations and conditions and bring it down.” That, plus his advanced knowledge of Magical Circuits and their detection, makes him incredibly effective both in using tools and magic to put down Mages.[3] So he has both the experience and the means to put down a variety of Magi.
Magecraft
Kiritsugu’s main skill is Innate Time Control wielded as Time Manipulation, “which is the ability to separate the passage of time inside a designated space from the "flow of time" in the outside world.” By chanting “Time Alter” and “Accel,” he gives himself a speed boost that he can release at any point. It’s generally restricted to short bursts with a maximum output of “Double Accel” that dramatically increases both his base speed and his reaction speed. This can be doubled yet again with “Square Accel”, and both can be used more consistently and for longer with Avalon inside of him, though I’ll come back to how that works shortly.[4] Long story short: dude is fast when he has to be.
I recognize that Kirei is fast, but he never outpaces Kiritsugu on screen while the latter’s Time Alter is in effect [0:44-0:48 and 1:43-2:01). This affords Kiritsugu opportunities to inflict terrible and lasting damage that Kirei cannot match. How?
Weapons and Ammunition
Kiritsugu’s Origin Bullets fired by his custom-made Thompson Contender were created from his first and second ribs and, while they have a number of interesting effects, I’m going to focus on the ones that matter most to this fight.
Note first the interaction between the Origin Bullet and Kirei’s Black Keys at 0:26. These Black Keys are made of magical energy, and like all magic that comes into contact with these bullets, the effect of the bullets extends all the way down through the Magic Circuits of the wielder. It’s described this way:
“If a magus' Circuits are a high-voltage power cable, then the impact of the bullet is comparatively a drop of water attaching itself to a thickly-placed electrical circuit. Once a conductive liquid becomes attached, the short-circuiting current will destroy the circuit itself, resulting in permanent damage.”[5]
This gets worse for anyone Kiritsugu faces with a stronger magical defense, as that only increases the destructive capability of these Origin Bullets. This comes from his two Origins: “Severing,” which reduces those circuits to chaos, and “Binding,” which binds them back together in a way that renders them inoperable so they cannot be repaired.
And it’s not enough for Kirei to just use his strength and speed to compensate for his defensive deficits. “The bullets excel in penetration, and there is little outside of magecraft capable of blocking them,” as demonstrated in this very fight. At 2:06, with no other options, Kirei is forced to sacrifice his arm to redirect just one bullet. Sure, he proves himself capable in melee combat even after suffering this injury, he only becomes more vulnerable to Kiritsugu’s ranged attacks and he has no meaningful answer to a point-blank shot.
But it’s not just that Kiritsugu’s bullets are effective; he is also basically guaranteed to be able to take multiple shots with it. How?
Avalon
Avalon significantly raises the limits that Kiritsugu’s body can reach. As a Conceptual Weapon residing within himself, it functions automatically, granting him the full effects of its immortality upon injury or even death. It is stated that this, combined with his Innate Time Control, offers him such a significant advantage that he could even defeat a Servant (spirits summoned to fight for the Holy Grail that function as high rank familiars for mages [6]) in combat, meaning he absolutely can keep up with and defeat superhuman opponents like Kirei.[7]
And the immortality this item offers is a huge advantage for Kiritsugu. As Pro points out, he was killed by Kirei at 1:24, but mere seconds later at 1:33 has revived and is firing on Kirei with his machine gun. With Avalon on the battlefield, Kiritsugu’s fighting capacity does not end even with his death, which affords him more opportunities to attack and catch Kirei off guard.
Conclusion
The superior fighter in this contest is the one who can best utilize all the opportunities available to them, not just the one who can win a fistfight. Pro has the unenviable task of explaining why Kirei stands superior in spite of his heavily limited capabilities and adaptability, whereas, as I’ve shown, Kiritsugu lacks neither. He has the tactics, resources, speed, firepower, survivability and healing to stay up and put down Kirei. Kirei’s only effective response is to close the distance and hope that he can somehow overwhelm Avalon’s healing capacity, something we’ve never seen him do. This fight is Kiritsugu’s to lose because he controls so many aspects of it, ergo he is the superior fighter.
- https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FDsOYtRwR5I&pp=ygUMI2tpcmVpa2VlbmFu
- https://www.ssbwiki.com/No_items,_Fox_only,_Final_Destination
- https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Kiritsugu_Emiya#Anti-Magi_tactics
- https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Kiritsugu_Emiya#Magecraft
- https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Kiritsugu_Emiya#Thompson_Contender
- https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Servant#Characteristics
- https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Kiritsugu_Emiya#Avalon
Round 2
Pro
#3
Con concedes a lot of lee-way here and drops all of my arguments. Instead of bolstering his case, he is attempting to establish a new framework by redefining all my rules. Here are all the arguments that Con dropped.:
- Kirei killed Emiya Kiritsugu in this fight. Which means Kirei already won.
- Kirei’s strength, speed, and reflexes exceed Kiritsugu’s, and Kirei’s stats are tiered as higher, according to Top-Strongest.
- Kirei has the psychological edge over Kiritsugu by means of being more ruthless and devoid of restraint.
- Con himself indirectly acknowledges that Kirei would best Kiritsugu in close-ranged combat, and Kirei is basically superhuman while Kiritsugu isn’t.
By those four points alone, I have firmly established the burden of proof for my side and finalized my case. Con desperately needs his framing to stick because if it doesn’t, then it’s a definitive loss. But Con leaves out certain details that would meaningfully enable us to accept his framework.:
- Is he rejecting mine completely to replace mine with his own?
- Is he accepting my framework, but extending the factors to include his category of exploiting opportunities to secure victory?
Evaluating what makes a superior fighter is whoever creates the most opportunities to win this fight by killing their foe.
There is no way to fairly or reliably compare this. Having better opportunities available and then weaponizing them isn’t a demonstration of creativity or resourcefulness, and having unfair advantages is irrelevant to what makes the better fighter, as a more advanced fighter could make a mistake and the opponent could get lucky. This has nothing to do with superiority or inferiority.
The superior fighter in this contest is the one who can best utilize all the opportunities available to them, not just the one who can win a fistfight. This fight is Kiritsugu’s to lose because he controls so many aspects of it, ergo he is the superior fighter.
Kiritsugu is the luckier fighter, not the superior fighter. This is more of an interpretation of the resolution that is essentially arguing that Kiritsugu’s luck is enough to overcome the skill gap, but that’s different than arguing he is the better fighter.
When drawing the line between inferiority and superiority in terms of fighting, the only thing that defines the difference is fighting ability. And here are the factors and categories that make up fighting ability.:
- Skills/Abilities
- Athleticism
In the absence of any criteria for comparison, these are the standard metrics that judges and voters fall back on universally. For that reason alone, I am conceding that all of Kiritsugu’s weapons and abilities can be used in this debate by Con, except for one. Avalon.
Avalon does not count as a factor, as it is irrelevant to arguing who has the superior fighting ability. Avalon is not an extension of Kiritsugu’s own abilities. Avalon is an enhancer which allows Kiritsugu to die and respawn an infinite amount of times, further reinforcing Kiritsugu’s weakness as an opponent that he requires avalon to even stand a chance against Kirei.
Consider these two scenarios.:
- If a professional gamer 1v1’s a noob, but the noob has cheats like aimbot and auto-regeneration, and manages to win based on those two alone. The gaming community would not recognize the noob as the better player and neither would you.
- If prime Mike Tyson had to box prime Ronald Reagan. But after every defeat, Mike Tyson had to box and win against another clone of Ronald Reagen. Eventually, Tyson would cave to fatigue and lose. This does not mean Ronald Reagen is the better boxer.
Kiritsugu can and should be dead without avalon, as he already lost the fight against Kirei.
And the limitations of avalon prevent it from being able to revive a host whose brain is completely destroyed. And if any of Kirei’s kicks from earlier landed, then Kiritsugu would be unable to do anything about it.
Skills & Abilities
Kirei has also mastered a variety of magics.: Alchemy, necromancy, summoning, divination, and healing. And he has managed to kill 20 magus with just his bare hands. Earlier I mentioned that his punch killed Kiritsugu and there’s a reason for that. Kirei’s muscles are solidified to the point of being steel-like, and even after his prime he is able to break a tree that is over 30 cm wide. “He is able to break apart a tree without utilizing his arms because his strength as a martial arts master is not only produced from the wrist.” 1
Con says that Kirei is unable to outpace Kiritsugu during time-alter. But this is simply more than untrue. When Kiritsugu tripled his time acceleration, I showed the timestamp in the first round about how Kirei deflected all of his attacks without seeing any of them.
“Can react to gunfire, twice, from a distance. Could react to Kiritsugu when the latter used Triple Accel, which made him "three times faster than normal humans" while injured.”
“Even when Kiritsugu accelerated his speed by three times, and Kirei had one usable arm and blood in his eye, he was able to block all of Kiritsugu's attacks with one hand.”
The superior fighter is the one who can best utilize all the opportunities available to them, not just the one who can win a fistfight. This fight is Kiritsugu’s to lose because he controls so many aspects of it, ergo he is the superior fighter.
What’s just as important as one who can best utilize the opportunities given, is the one who reacts and adapts to each scenario.
Kirei demonstrates this. When Kiritsugu initially doubles his time acceleration to dodge the kicks that Kirei throws at him, Kirei realizes what happened. Kirei then decides he will adjust his defensive timing and is certain that Kiritsugu will not evade him.
What happens is Kirei lands his punch, and the strike kills Kiritsugu.
Even after Kirei is taken off-guard by Kiritsugu’s revival and is forced to sacrifice an arm. Kirei immediately recognizes Kiritsugu’s regeneration and has already decided how he's going to kill Kiritsugu. His plan is to destroy Emiya Kiritsugu’s brain and he realizes he can’t use his right arm, but he never once doubts that he will be successful. Destroying Kiritsugu's brain would prevent him from coming back to life.
Emiya Kiritsugu has now showed all his cards, but Kirei still has a wide variety of resources he can use. He can draw on more Command Seals to enhance his speed and strength, forcing Kiritsugu on the defensive.
There is a reload time for Emiya Kiritsugu’s time-acceleration abilities.
And it is very easy for Emiya to slip up here, especially now that Kirei is charging at him. Kirei now knows the full extent of Kiritsugu's abilities.
If any of Kirei’s blades land, Kiritsugu will die again but he won’t be able to revive quickly enough to Kirei destroying his brain while he’s down.
Never once does Emiya Kiritsugu out-fight Kirei. Kirei is constantly forcing Emiya Kiritsugu on the defensive.
Removing outcomes from the equation renders metrics devoid of meaning.
We don’t have an outcome to this fight and based on the clues given, the few advantages that Kiritsugu have in this duel never suggest that he’s winning. At times, he is able to surprise Kirei and at the end. It shows both fighters about to deliver the killing blow, but in this position, it could have gone either way. The majority of the fight however, the outcomes appear to suggest Kirei is dominating the whole fight.
“If a magus' Circuits are a high-voltage power cable, then the impact of the bullet is a drop of water attaching itself to a thickly-placed electrical circuit. Once a conductive liquid becomes attached, the short-circuiting current will destroy the circuit itself, resulting in permanent damage.”[5]This gets worse for anyone Kiritsugu faces with a stronger magical defense, as that increases the destructive capability of these Origin Bullets.And it’s not enough for Kirei to just use his strength and speed to compensate for his defensive deficits. “The bullets excel in penetration, and there is little outside of magecraft capable of blocking them,” as demonstrated in this very fight. At 2:06, with no other options, Kirei is forced to sacrifice his arm to redirect just one bullet. Sure, he proves himself capable in melee combat even after suffering this injury, he only becomes more vulnerable to Kiritsugu’s ranged attacks and he has no meaningful answer to a point-blank shot.
Emiya Kiritsugu ran out of calico ammo this fight, but even after Kirei sacrificing his arm. Emiya Kiritsugu even admits to himself that he stands no chance against Kirei in close-ranged melee combat, despite the latter having only one arm. (3:29) KIREI VS KIRITSUGU! "The Last Command Spell" Fate/Zero Season 2 Episode 11 Reaction
This changes everything. Kirei is very obviously the superior fighter.
Kirei isn’t using his own mana sources, so this significantly mitigates the damage that The Origin Bullet can do. He is using Command Seals as the source of his black keys. Kirei’s muscles are described as steel-like, his body is super durable. He is able to tank bullets to his head, and Kirei is wearing bulletproof clothing in this fight.
“Can tank bullets due to his kevlar-woven and magically-enchanted robes. Also tanked a bullet to the head.”
And there are a variety of solutions for Kiritsugu’s Origin Bullets. If the target is not using any magic, then Origin Bullets are basically just regular bullets. Kirei could materialize his blades from his Command Seals as a temporary shield and buy himself enough time to close the distance between Kiritsugu to attack.
Kirei can use his Command Seals to enhance his speed, or strength to prevent Kiritsugu from getting a point-blank shot. Since Kirei can predict attacks, this wouldn’t be difficult to do in theory.
The mistake is assuming Kirei needs to block the bullets. All he has to do is dodge. Kirei's ability to counter Kiritsugu's rapid fire shots means that Kirei can dodge the Origin Bullets with ease.
Con
#4
I'll begin by clarifying a few things in overviews before I get into the nitty-gritty of these fighters and this fight.
OV1: How does either of us win this debate?
In R2, Pro gave three metrics to use to establish who is the superior fighter: skills, abilities and athleticism.
There are two big problems with this.
One, the measuring stick problem. Even if we could reduce what makes a superior fighter to these metrics, Pro offers no means to evaluate any skills, abilities or athleticism against each other, reducing them to numbers on a skill wheel without the necessary context for how they determine superiority in this fight.
Two, these are not the sole factors that determine superiority. I’ve offered several other factors, including preparedness, proficiency with weapons, adaptability and tactics, all of which demonstrate superiority in distinct ways.
I proposed a metric that circumvents these issues by placing them in the most meaningful context: who is most likely to win this fight across multiple iterations. Whichever fighter creates the most opportunities to end the fight across these iterations is the superior fighter. This is the best “way to fairly or reliably compare” our fighters.
Pro opposes this framework for two reasons.
First,
Having better opportunities available and then weaponizing them isn’t a demonstration of creativity or resourcefulness, and having unfair advantages is irrelevant to what makes the better fighter, as a more advanced fighter could make a mistake and the opponent could get lucky. This has nothing to do with superiority or inferiority.
This is Pro’s most baffling take. Recognizing and taking advantage of opportunities as they present themselves is absolutely a skill, one that requires a fighter to be both creative and resourceful by reacting and adapting to changing circumstances. He says this despite repeatedly citing Kirei’s adaptability as a demonstration of his superiority. And yes, that means mistakes are a factor, too. Making more mistakes makes one an inferior fighter, no matter how advanced they are, and capitalizing on those mistakes makes one a superior fighter. It’s not just fair but necessary to consider these in the context of this debate.
Second, he points to a lack of certainty given the video doesn’t show us who would have won, but since we’ve been able to argue this for two rounds already and we both have a case for how the outcome would swing our way, this doesn’t mean much. He does also argue that one fighter dominating a single exchange or a set of exchanges demonstrates overall superiority, and on that we disagree. We’re arguing for overall superiority in this fight, not superiority in specific exchanges.
OV2: The Avalon of it all
Pro has moved the goalposts when it comes to Avalon. At no point in the description or his first round did Pro limit our characters to items or skills that are solely extensions of their abilities. If that was true, then Pro’s claim that Kirei’s Command Seals function in this fight also would not hold up, since they are granted by the Holy Grail or inherited from and not an extension of Kirei’s abilities[1]. He also justifies the inclusion of Kiritsugu’s guns, which are items he brings with him like Avalon. So not only is he imposing late rules on what my character has access to after referencing Avalon as a factor himself in R1 (it’s almost a quarter of his opening round), but he’s applying that restriction arbitrarily.
And I get why Pro is trying to do this, since Avalon both is and represents a key problem he cannot overcome: Kiritisugu’s preparation and careful use of resources. Avalon only became a Conceptual Weapon stored in Kiritsugu’s body because he was preparing to face off against Kirei. His Origin Bullets, all his weapons, and his foreknowledge of Kirei that make fighting him possible are all crucial preparations that give Kiritsugu an edge, and by trying to eliminate Avalon, Pro seems to be limiting if not removing preparation as a valid metric ex post facto for what makes a superior fighter.
As for Avalon being an unfair inclusion, two problems.
One, neither of his scenarios bear any resemblance to what we’re dealing with. Kiritsugu can’t win this fight solely by regenerating so he isn’t akin to infinite Ronald Reagans. He can be put down by having his brain destroyed, as Pro himself argues, so this isn’t some impossible to overcome cheat code either.
Two, it’s arbitrary. We’ve both acknowledged that Kirei is superhuman, basically granted a permanent speed and power boost with heavy bullet resistance and his own healing magic. If Avalon is cheating, why aren’t these?
I will proceed assuming Avalon necessarily is in play. As such, unless Kirei puts him down for good, inflicting even a mortal wound only slows him down momentarily. This is part of why winning an exchange doesn’t demonstrate that he’s the superior fighter overall; even if those exchanges result in terrible wounds, the fact that they cannot overcome Avalon drastically reduces their importance in this fight. If it doesn’t end the fight, it doesn’t net him the win.
With that out of the way, let’s get down to brass tacks. There are two stats that matter most in this debate because they are the places where our characters truly compete and where their greatest opportunities lie to end this fight.
Speed
Pro makes some pretty big claims about Kiritsugu’s abilities and Kirei’s responses that don’t hold up.
First, Pro’s references to Kirei exceeding Kiritsugu in Time Alter come from the Fate/Zero light novel, not from the anime. In the description, Pro referenced this video as the focus of this debate, so drawing on the light novel exceeds that scope. At no point in the anime does Kirei exceed the speed of Kiritsugu in Time Alter. Again, that video shows Time Alter in effect at two distinct times: 0:44-0:48 and 1:43-2:01. It was not in effect when Kiritsugu tried to engage Kirei in melee combat. I agree that Kirei is adaptable in melee combat and can use it to great and devastating effect, but he’s not the only one who can adapt to new techniques on the fly, as Kiritsugu has demonstrated similar adaptability to a range of techniques.[2]
Second, despite Kirei’s general speed advantage outside of Time Alter, Kiritsugu’s attacks land twice (once hitting his Black Keys and once in the arm). So either he couldn’t dodge, or he chose not to dodge. I’ll come back to the “why” of this later, but this shows that Kirei’s advantages are far from insurmountable and that even his Command Seals can only do so much to protect him. It doesn’t help Kirei that anytime he uses his own magic, he can be effectively one-hit KO’d. The previous mage to take an attack from Kiritsugu’s Origin Bullets that hit their magic circuits was Kayneth, who was incapacitated to the point that he required extensive help just to move his hands.[3] No amount of healing magic or resilience on Kirei’s part will prevent that, which is why Pro’s efforts to list Kirei’s magic capabilities fall flat. They may demonstrate his superiority elsewhere, but not here.
Third, Avalon covers for any and all of Kiritsugu’s weaknesses with Time Alter: “Avalon's healing power allows him to use them effectively and for extended periods.”[4] So, yes, his speed advantage can always be tailored to the moment.
Damage
Given Kirei’s advantages, this might seem obvious, but Pro has dug himself a pretty deep hole here.
Pro conceded that Avalon is going to be difficult for him to overcome in combination with Time Alter. He outright says it’s akin to a cheat code. Avalon ensures that the vast majority of even mortal wounds don’t keep Kiritsugu down or impede him for more than a few seconds, and since I’ve already argued it should be a factor in this debate, that ability to bounce back gives Kiritsugu a decided advantage when it comes to managing damage.
Pro also isn’t navigating the power of Kiritsugu’s Origin Bullets well. He has two responses: his magically-imbued defenses and defensive tactics. Both of these contradict Pro’s previously established statements.
Kirei’s Command Seals are clearly not unlimited, since he uses them sparingly. Yet, Pro argues that he’ll be simultaneously burning them for strength and speed and using them to protect himself with his Black Keys. If Kirei could burn through them at that rate, his decision to instead tank an Origin Bullet to the arm makes no sense. Similarly, if he could simply tank a shot to the head, his decision to sacrifice his arm to deflect the shot is baffling. Kirei is clearly vulnerable to these bullets even with his Command Seals in play.
As for Kirei dodging or using his Black Keys remotely, this contradicts both what we’ve seen and Pro’s own statements about his mentality. Despite Kirei’s speed, Kiritsugu’s shot still hit him and had to be deflected. Despite being able to wield his Keys from afar, he delayed doing so until near the end, and then only to assist in his offensive (3:16-3:26). That ruthless and persistent mentality Pro cited is a large part of the reason: it drives him to charge recklessly to close distances and try to end the fight as quickly and brutally as possible. That can be an advantage, but it also means he’s not prone to engaging in a defensive fight, so this notion that he’d just switch to being cautious and careful doesn’t hold up.
Conclusion
Kiritsugu has all he needs to end this fight. He has speed sufficient to force Kirei on the defensive at great cost to him and he can do enough damage to put Kirei down. Kirei, by contrast, despite his bigger numbers, gets in his own way in this fight and creates more opportunities for Kiritsugu to take the win.
Round 3
Con
#6
Voters: note that Pro’s R3 can be found in the comments (comments 19-22 in that order). Please do not hold his forfeit against him. He finished his round well ahead of the deadline.
Before I get into responses, a bit of housekeeping on the burdens.
We have disagreed on what makes a superior fighter, but what isn’t up for grabs is the context for that comparison: this duel. This isn’t an abstract evaluation of their numbers in a vacuum or what would happen if either of them behaved optimally, it’s about everything the fighters do to prepare this fight and how they perform in it. Yet, Pro says this:
“Performance doesn’t = skill. A professional pianist could tank their live performance and an amateur pianist could outperform them if the professional either slacked off or was lazy.”
Like many of Pro’s arguments, this is predicated on the assumption that larger skill numbers = superior, but that ignores context. If an amateur pianist outperforms a professional then, in that match-up, the amateur pianist is superior, full stop. The existence of a skill gap, which could have secured the professional the win in a different time or place, doesn’t change what happened in this match. Context is essential to this debate, and mistakes made or suboptimal choices pursued in this match help establish who is the superior fighter, as does each fighter’s ability to create and exploit advantages. So, let’s return to my framework.
OV1: Winning this debate
Pro still doesn’t have a universal measuring stick to evaluate skills against one another beyond who wins or is winning the fight. The closest he gets to a response is a red herring pointing to Kirei’s fight with Maiya and Irisviel, which only demonstrates that, in that fight under those circumstances, he overwhelmed both women (again, focused on who wins that fight). That doesn’t establish a clear metric for comparing skills.
And Pro concedes that there is a wide variety of factors to consider under both skills and abilities. This point supercharges the measuring stick problem, since Pro is just begging the question of how an even larger and more diverse set of skills and abilities can be compared without considering outcomes.
The only other metric Pro provides is, in his words, who “is dominating the majority of this fight.” Yet, all this does is invite more questions. What suffices as a “majority”? Winning a couple of exchanges? Both fighters take substantial damage one time each in this fight, and both have control over the fight from different distances, so establishing who is “dominating” from moment to moment is nearly impossible. Also, if being in control of the majority of the fight still results in a loss, then that “control” was obviously illusory or superficial. Victory in the fight is a far cleaner metric to establish superiority.
OV2: Avalon… again
Pro is still moving the goalposts. He still claims it’s an infinite respawn machine (see my responses to his analogies last round), and now argues that Avalon shouldn’t count because “Kiritsugu obtained avalon from sheer luck.”
Two responses.
- He’s wrong. When Kiritsugu and Irisviel summoned Saber, they knew they were getting her as a servant because she used Excalibur’s sheath as a catalyst. They knew how powerful Saber was and were aware of her access to Avalon. She was specifically summoned in part because of that access, which kept Irisviel alive far longer than would have been possible otherwise. He specifically implanted it into himself with knowledge of what it would do. That is all deliberate and planned.
- Even if Pro is right, it still counts. Kiritsugu takes advantage of the opportunity afforded to him, regardless of where it comes from. Anything they have is a factor in this fight, regardless of how they got it.
Whether possessing it demonstrates his preparation and resourcefulness (it does) or not, he has it and its utilization is relevant to this debate. Pro argued that Kirei’s healing magic is a skill and therefore a factor in this fight, but he wants to dismiss Avalon because it severely limits Kirei’s win conditions. That’s his problem, not mine.
Pro sets up a number of arguments that I’ll cover separately, so I’ll tackle those first.
Pro continues to revisit Kirei’s advantage in close combat. I have conceded this advantage, and if there wasn’t an obvious example of Kirei hitting Kiritsugu and barely incapacitating him for a few seconds, this point might have more merit. It’s not just a matter of Kirei landing a punch or a kick because it’s not about ability alone - he needs the insight to land those attacks on Kiritsugu’s brain and end the fight, which he doesn’t get until he’s seen Avalon in action. He doesn’t enter the fight with that foreknowledge. Pro is also assuming Kirei would automatically follow up on what he sees as a deadly attack before that realization, which he clearly doesn’t do in the video. Pro is right that these could end the fight absent any context if Kirei was just a fighter where he could input all the moves, he’s wrong that Kirei would given who he is (more on that later) and what he knows.
Pro mentions the ineffectiveness of Kiritsugu’s machine gun. I’ve never argued that it would put Kirei down, though Kirei clearly does have to block those shots so he’s not entirely immune to them. Kirei cannot stop an Origin Bullet without sacrificing either a Command Seal or an arm. Those bullets can kill Kirei.
Speed/Damage
Pro only has one argument supporting Kirei’s outpace Kiritsugu in Time Alter and he admits that comes from the light novel. Three responses.
- At no point does he reference any instance in the anime where Kirei displays this feat. There are whole Reddit threads [1, 2] that break down the differences between these versions. It’s not “an extension of the anime”; it was written before the anime, not supplemental to it, and it’s distinct.
- Pro was very clear in the setup for this debate: the topic specifies a duel, he posted in the video showcasing that duel, and now he wants to expand the scope of the debate to cover a written and distinct version of the duel.
- I’ve already demonstrated that, during the two times Time Alter is visibly in effect during this duel, Kiritsugu outpaces Kirei. Worst case scenario, if the light novel is gospel, Kirei manages to keep up one time out of three or more. That only mitigates Kiritsugu’s speed advantage.
The only other argument I can find for how Kirei overcomes this advantage is using his Black Keys remotely, which he does at the end of this fight. However, absent his Black Keys, Kirei cannot defend against Kiritsugu’s Origin Bullets. While those Black Keys are dangerous, they wouldn’t put Kiritsugu down just by impaling him (yes, even by puncturing vital organs - a pulverized heart and set of lungs barely put Kiritsugu down for a few seconds [3]). Kiritsugu doesn’t have to defend himself or avoid the strike because he can survive and recover quickly from it.
By contrast, at the end of the fight, Kirei is in point-blank range for Kiritsugu, who has an Origin Bullet loaded and ready. Kirei is in the air having launched himself forward in a straight line toward his target. He has only one arm remaining to deliver a strike. Kiritsugu isn’t preparing to defend or dodge, he’s not wavering from taking that shot despite knowing it could be his last. And even if Kirei’s attacks land at the same time as Kiritsugu takes the shot, only the latter is likely to walk away from the fight, since he’s far less likely to take an injury that puts him down for good (compare Kirei, who is about to get shot in the head, to an all-angles attack by a bunch of blades on someone wielding Avalon).
But there’s one thing I’ve kept mentioning that both Pro and I haven’t discussed much:
Iterations
Despite the fact that this would reduce the impact of isolated mistakes or outside interventions, Pro hasn’t engaged with this element of my framework, and it’s not hard to see why. It’s very easy to dismiss off-hand that Kiritsugu is “just more versatile” when you’re only considering one version of this fight. That versatility, including Kiritsugu’s tactical expertise, means he’s able to adapt to a wide variety of magical attacks and defenses that his opponent wields and can easily and quickly punish them with his Origin Bullets, just one of which would put Kirei out of commission entirely.
Meanwhile, Kirei’s choices are limited by his mentality. Kirei’s ruthless and persistent mentality drives him to charge recklessly to close distances and try to end the fight as quickly and brutally as possible. It’s the reason he launches himself straight at Kiritsugu despite his injuries and lack of defense. It’s the reason he never tries to dodge despite his speed or play much defense. Kirei’s persistent belief that he is in control of a fight, no matter how dire the circumstances, is not the boon Pro makes it out to be. Kirei’s overconfidence leads to his death in all three routes of the Fate series that proceed from Fate/Zero, including: engaging in a fistfight with Shirou Emiya after his heart is destroyed (Heaven’s Feel [4]), ignoring the threat of the Azoth Dagger and allowing Emiya to punch it into his chest (Fate/Stay Night [5]), and turning his back on a still alive Lancer after betraying him (Unlimited Blade Works [6]). He is blind to opportunities he gives his opponents and he only ever realizes his mistakes when it’s too late. Kirei isn’t just prone to unforced errors that make him vulnerable, he’s compelled to make them across every single timeline. These aren’t isolated instances: they’re his default.
- https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/2tnqq1/fatezero_light_novel_vs_anime/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/fatestaynight/comments/ix9b3e/comparing_the_two_ufotable_anime_adaptations/
- https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Kiritsugu_Emiya#Avalon
- https://youtu.be/oZlRdc9gxE4?si=MagEOgCV5ssMXJUC
- https://youtu.be/jCZ45YKtlpI?si=qk3vs_T3PSkP-A1n
- https://youtu.be/igGVQonBftg?si=V4Mm3ELdzU2jeDbs
Round 4
Pro
#7
I’m going to cut to the chase here. I mentioned in Round 1 this is on-balance, Con didn’t disagree meaning this BOP remains. But Con hasn’t done enough to establish his case for Emiya Kiritsugu and he isn’t using enough defense.
- Every death that Emiya Kiritsugu experiences reinforces Kirei as the superior fighter, and dying once is already one point for Kirei.
- There are three ranges in melee combat.: Close/Mid/Long. Con and Emiya Kiritsugu have already admitted that Kirei dominates in close-ranged combat. That’s another point for Kirei. Con doesn’t make any case for mid or long distance.
- Kirei’s battle and combat stats are tiered higher than Emiya Kiritsugu’s. Con doesn’t refute this, so this is now a dropped argument.
- There are two types of combat.: Unarmed/Weapons. Kirei is Emiya Kiritsugu’s superior in unarmed combat. In weapons, this still goes to Kirei because Kirei manages to fight the whole time with his Black Keys while Emiya Kiritsugu switches weapons twice. The first time Kiritsugu runs out of bullets, but when he switches to his blade it’s useless because Kirei blocks all his attempts with one arm. So Emiya Kiritsugu switches from his blade and is forced to use his last resort which is the gun with Origin Bullets.
That’s four points for Kirei and 0 for Emiya Kiritsugu.
Con is losing even under his own framework.:
what makes a superior fighter is whoever creates the most opportunities to win this fight by permanently killing or incapacitating their foe. This debate isn’t about who has a preponderance of skills anymore than it’s about who has the “best” single skill; it’s about whose skills are better in the aggregate qualitatively, and we need some way to determine that. Removing outcomes from the equation renders metrics devoid of meaning.
Emiya Kiritsugu has his moments of success in this fight, but so does Kirei.
It is Kirei who has the most moments of success in this fight, qualitatively and quantitatively. And the fight ends with the roof collapsing on both fighters, forcing a stalemate. There is no final outcome. Any predictions you could possibly make are just speculation.
So without a final outcome, we can only calculate based on the details of what actually happened.
Emiya Kiritsugu is fighting to stay alive in this fight and is barely keeping up, Kirei is fighting to kill.
Kirei is also faster than Kiritsugu, can predict his attacks, and now has a solid plan to put him down. When Kirei was originally forced to stop the Origin Bullet with his hand, it was a miscalculation. He assumed he could block it because of how easily he blocked the calico ammo. But even then, Origin Bullets won’t affect Kirei like they do mages because Kirei doesn’t rely on his own mana sources, so he will be fine.
Kirei usually pre-reacts to gunfire like he did against Maiya by launching his black keys as throwing projectiles.
Against Kiritsugu, he threw all four at (3:16) and Kiritsugu didn’t finish reloading until (3:20), wasting too much time that allowed the black keys to effectively close the distance which now makes it too late.: Fate Zero__ emiya kiritsugu VS kotomine kirei 1080p - YouTube
Emiya Kiritsugu needs to land a clean shot, but when he finally gets ready to shoot at (3:25), his gun is pointed to the side of Kirei’s head. Any shot fired would only graze his ear, and Kirei’s offensive posture during his charge is perfect here, as it affords him enough time to slip his head out of range by milliseconds just before Kiritsugu fires, as Kirei can hear attacks. Everything from Kirei has been timed and executed perfectly.
Not that this matters anyway, as at (3:25), Emiya Kiritsugu makes no attempt to defend himself from the black keys. He’s already used up his time acceleration consecutively in a short timeframe, so he needs to recharge which isn’t enough time to evade or dodge all of the four black keys.
The one at the bottom left hand corner at 3:25 will impale his brain, ending Emiya Kiritsugu’s life for a second time but permanently. The black keys can pierce iron, meaning the damage sustained is too high to survive. That’s effectively another delayed point for Kirei which will eventually make him go from 4 to 5.
Here is proof of Kirei’s abilities to dodge or avoid gunfire by pre-reacting, or being quick enough to deflect when it’s fired.:
Maiya fires at Kirei, but her gun is knocked from her hands by Kirei flinging his Black Keys.
At (9:15), Maiya fires rapid-fire at Kirei but he has already moved out of the way. A Black Key is thrown which impales her leg at (9:20). She begins firing as he starts to re-engage, but he blocks all of the bullets by using his blades as shields.
At (11:20), he breaks apart a tree using nothing but his bare hands while in restraints. His brute strength alone lends him the advantage in any unarmed situation.
Fate Zero__ emiya kiritsugu VS kotomine kirei 1080p At (0:50), Kirei has already leaped back before Emiya Kiritsugu draws his machine gun and shoots. Kirei parries all of the machine gun rapid fire bullets with ease, speed, and finesse.
At (1:30), Kirei has already killed Emiya Kiritsugu and walks away. Even taken off-guard by Emiya Kiritsugu’s revival and having another flurry of machine gun bullets fired at him, Kirei blocks all of them with just his arms.
So by the end of the fight, Kirei will kill Emiya Kiritsugu in one of three ways.:
- The Black Keys strikes and impales Emiya’s skull before Kirei gets to him.
- Kirei throws a punch with his left arm and splatters Kiritsugu’s brains across the wall.
- Kirei throws a kick at Kiritsugu’s head which has the same outcome.
Kirei has demonstrated his superiority on several accounts.:
- Inflicting the most damage.
- Technical Expertise.
- Adaptability.
Con
#8
I’ll start with two blocks of rebuttals before I get to my crystallization.
R1: Pro’s Point System
Pro has once again shifted his method of evaluating each fighter, this time to a points based system.
Three responses.
One, Pro rates everything equally without any reasoning. They’re all just points he’s made in this debate, so he wants credit for them and claims that I have 0 points, ignoring all my arguments when it suits his tally.
Two, each point balances with a point I’ve made. Kiritsugu “dies” once, revives within seconds, and keeps on fighting, demonstrating Kiritsugu’s skills since he takes the opportunity to catch Kirei off guard and inflicts the only lasting and debilitating wound of the fight. Kiritsugu has an obvious advantage at mid and long range (and yes, I did make the case for this - his proficiency with and effective use of guns and Kirei repeatedly needing to close the distance between them to maintain his advantage). Kiritsugu’s tactics, equipment, magecraft (which he can use but Kirei cannot due to the Origin Bullets) balance out Kirei’s “stat advantages.” And Kirei’s proficiency with one type of armed combat does not make him Kiritsugu’s superior in that respect given Kiritsugu’s versatility in combat.
Three, if this is how we’re going to do it, let’s tally for Kiritsugu as well:
- a mid and long range combat with a weapon Kirei refuses to dodge and can only block at great cost
- his advantage with speed in Time Alter
- Avalon for near instantaneous an automatic healing from almost any wound
- versatility required to maintain control of much of the fight
- a more level-headed and careful approach to the fight that makes every risk he takes calculated
- inflicting the only lasting injury of the fight over its duration, disabling Kirei’s arm
That’s 6 points. My number is bigger, so if Pro wants this to be the metric, it swings against him.
R2: How The Fight Will End
Pro references three ways he thinks this fight will play out, two of which require Kirei to get in melee range and launch a precise attack on Kiritsugu’s head, and all three of which require him to land a strike on his head after Kiritsugu fires his weapon, which means Kirei has to survive the shot first. All these assumptions fail in the face of what I’ve already demonstrated and what Pro has conceded:
- Kirei lacks any defense having:
- Thrown his Black Keys
- Lost one of his arms, leaving only one to attack with (which he will necessarily try to do), and
- Is unable to use other magic since he would have to use his own mana source
- Kirei is in the air with no means to launch himself in a different direction (he cannot fly) or adjust his forward momentum
- Kirei has a proven record of refusing to dodge due to his mentality
- Kirei as a consistent record of underestimating his opponents and dying as a result in all three proceeding timelines
For all Pro keeps referencing them, Kirei’s broader advantages afford him no protection against being shot in the head by an Origin Bullet. He has no record or reason (again, as Pro has argued, he feels entirely in control of this fight) to try and avoid that shot. Kiritsugu isn’t going to miss no matter how much Pro wants to argue that he’s off target (a baffling take - the final shot of the two of them at 3:26 has Kiritsugu’s weapon pointed straight at Kirei’s head). Pro keeps wanting to broaden the context of this debate (more on that later) to avoid engaging with the reality that this fight ends with one shot, something Kirei will not survive.
Crystallization
Pro has set up a debate with clear context. We know who is involved, where this fight takes place and how their exchanges play out. The only question is: who is the superior fighter based on the information we have? In contrast to that set up, much of Pro’s argument eschews that context, instead arguing as though any of the following were true:
- If it wasn’t about this specific fight and instead a game of numbers where stats on a skill wheel decide the outcome of some theoretical fight
- If both characters will only behave in the most logically optimized way
- If both characters went in with full knowledge of their opponent’s skills and abilities
- If characters only had access to “extensions” of their “own abilities”
- If this was functionally the same fight as the one Kirei had against Maya and Irisviel
All of these are false.
Stats only matter insofar as they are used in a way that matters, otherwise they’re empty numbers.
Both Kiritsugu and Kirei have personalities and are thus prone to make certain choices in combat. We cannot divorce them from those personalities because we are not just throwing two robots into a match with their abilities.
Both Kiritsugu and Kirei are surprised over the course of the fight by the abilities and items the other wields.
There are no rules that impose arbitrary restrictions on what each character can use.
And Kiritsugu is definitely not Maya or Irisviel, neither of whom had access to his Origin Bullets or Time Alter.
All of these factors impact how each side performs in this fight. They complicate any simple analysis that aims to remove certain elements from the fight and examine them individually, including the point system Pro suggested and his notion that we can determine who is “controlling the fight” for longer, even though he drops that any control that doesn’t end the fight is illusory. On paper, Kirei has everything he needs to be the superior fighter. His numbers are bigger. He’s a better hand-to-hand fighter. He’s extremely durable. He has a grab bag of magical surprises up his sleeve.
Pro’s decision to remove these elements from the context of this fight is where his argument falls apart. The winner of the fight takes all the elements of the fight into account as well as how they are utilized by each fighter. Pro keeps pointing to “mistakes” and “luck” as factors in the outcome, ignoring a) that both are factors in determining superiority as well, and b) that the outcome of any single exchange in the fight is also similarly affected. And for all Pro’s opposition to it, he has never responded to my framework, which includes considering iterations of this match-up. Instead, he keeps arguing that since we don’t see how this would have played out, we can’t know, which just doesn’t engage with the extrapolation both of us are using. We can demonstrate who has an advantage in that final exchange, who best set themselves up for success. Despite all his griping, Pro’s uncertainty hasn’t prevented him from arguing that Kirei would win.
That being said, I understand why Pro wants my framework to go away: he knows there are just too many outcomes where Kirei dies and Kiritsugu walks away:
- Pro concedes that Kirei lacks any meaningful defense against an Origin Bullet to the face and is now just spit-balling about the moves Kirei could make… despite emphasizing his “ruthlessness and persistence” and R1 and emphasizing that “[h]e never even believes his life is at stake” in R3. Pro can point to no reason beyond his being physically capable of doing it for why Kirei would choose to dodge, drops that Kirei dies in every timeline despite his prodigious strength and speed, and does not engage with the reality that he’s made it impossible to dodge by throwing himself at Kiritsugu.
- Pro concedes that Avalon is a factor. It neuters the effectiveness of the vast majority of attacks Kirei could use against Kiritsugu. Unless he specifically targets and destroys Kiritsugu’s brain, the fight continues and Kiritsugu is hardly even impeded.
- Pro concedes that Kiritsugu’s Time Alter ensures that he’s faster than Kirei the vast majority of the time it’s active. Kiritsugu outpaces Kirei a minimum of two times out of three, and that’s if you factor in the light novel (again: never demonstrated in the anime). Whether it’s attempts to hit Kiritsugu’s brain or to avoid his Origin Bullet, Pro has to assume that Kirei can outpace Kiritsugu’s magecraft, which does not happen in a majority of instances.
Kirei is consistently handicapped, whether by his own mentality that prevents him from perceiving threats, his overconfidence believing he’s won the fight too early, his inability to use most of his magecraft in the face of an opponent who can completely debilitate him should he use it (hitting Kirei’s Magical Circuits ends the fight), his need to close the distance to utilize most of his skills, and his having to land a killing blow on one very specific part of Kiritsugu’s body against an opponent who can manipulate time. Kiritsugu wins this fight because Kirei simply cannot use his abilities to the fullest, either due to his own mentality or Kiritisugu’s advantages.
Alright, back to Pro to round out his side of the debate.
Round 5
Pro
#9
This isn't bringing a new argument into the last round, this is extending an argument from the previous ones.
This is just repeating what I said before. In the previous round, I mentioned that Emiya Kiritsugu's gun is not pointing at Kirei's head in the last moment of the fight. It is aimed at the side. What I said is if the Origin Bullet makes contact at all, the worst that it does is graze his ear.
Look.:
The proof is in the first screenshot. If Kiritsugu takes a shot, the bullet has no visible target so it will miss.
---
As this is now the last round, I shall now post a closing paragraph and wrap this up. I thank whiteflame for debating this with me.
I have established that Kirei is the superior fighter in his duel against Emiya Kiritsugu by the following factors.:
- Kirei kills Emiya Kiritsugu with his bare hands. And every death that Emiya Kiritsugu experiences reinforces Kirei as the superior fighter.
- The odds at the end of the fight favor Kirei.
- Con and I agree that Kirei is the superior fighter in close-ranged combat.
- According to the Tiering list, Kirei's battle and combat abilities are scored higher than Emiya's.
- Kirei is better at Emiya Kiritsugu in armed and unarmed combat.
I thank Con for this debate and look forward to having another very soon.
Con
#10
Given that we might not have long left on the site, I'll get this up now. Thank you, Lancelot, for debating me on what is likely a subject only the two of us strongly care about (that doesn't bother me - not like I did my PhD in a crowd-pleasing topic).
I'll only give one response and then summarize. Since Pro keeps bringing up the angle of Kiritsugu's shot and asserting that Kiritsugu would only "graze his ear," I did my best to use Pro's image to draw a line indicating where the shot is likely to go:
That's a head shot to me, but I'll leave it up to voters (assuming we have any) to decide that.
Look, this is a pretty simple debate in the end. Kirei has advantages, I've acknowledged them. The fact that he has them doesn't mean he's the superior fighter in this instance. Pro keeps wanting to take those advantages out of context and stack them up next to what Kiritsugu has to offer and show you that his tower is taller. The problem, as I've pointed out multiple times, is that the superior fighter isn't demonstrated by who would win this fight because their numbers are bigger. It isn't demonstrated by some arbitrary metric that determines what numbers matter more, nor is it demonstrated by some illusion of control that he maintains exists despite all evidence to the contrary. It's determined by who would win this fight in the majority of outcomes, and that comes down to two major factors: Kirei's inability to use his strengths, and his mentality driving him towards death.
Kirei is forced to close the distance against Kiritsugu because he has no response to the Origin Bullet. He's forced to tangle with an ability that outpaces him the vast majority of the time and try to land a killing blow on a very specific part of Kiritsugu's body because of Avalon.
So what does that lead him to do? Rather than carefully seek his moment and force Kiritsugu's hand, it leads Kirei to launch himself at his target, giving himself no means whatsoever to avoid a shot aimed for his head. Just like in every single timeline, Kirei's overconfidence and ruthlessness drive him to take unnecessary risks, and get himself killed in the process. That failing extends to multiple fights against so-called "lesser fighters" like Shirou Emiya and Lancer, who proved superior in the end despite lacking many of Kirei's advantages.
Thanks to anyone who reads this, and I look forward to more debates on the new site.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
For simplicity, I’ll abbreviate Kotomine Kirei as KK and Emiya Kiritsugu as EK.
First and foremost: framing. Pro tells me to evaluate the fight on the basis of “skills and abilities,” but the way those are categorized begins to look more shaky as the debate continues. He also tells me not to account for “luck,” although it’s not clear what counts as luck and what doesn’t. Pro tells me I can take all of EK’s weapons into account except for the Avalon, since it’s not “an extension of Kiritsugu’s own abilities.” This seems to be the main sticking point in how each side wants to frame the debate.
Pro argues that the Avalon was received by pure luck, therefore it doesn’t make EK a better fighter. Con argues that Pro is being inconsistent here, since KK’s command seals are granted by the Holy Grail and not strictly an extension of his abilities. Furthermore, Con argues that KK’s superhuman abilities are also “luck,” so if we can take them into account why exclude the Avalon? Con gets the final word on the Avalon, arguing that it wasn’t actually received by luck and reiterating that it was used in the fight, therefore it should be analyzed. I don’t see Pro coming back to this point after Round 3, so I’ll include it as part of EK’s abilities.
At this point in the debate, Con is pulling significantly ahead. Much of Pro’s case relies on the statement that “Every death that Emiya Kiritsugu experiences reinforces Kirei as the superior fighter, and dying once is already one point for Kirei.” The points system is shown by Con as basically arbitrary, since Con can just count a greater number of things that use it to give EK a greater score. In the end, I think Con makes several important points that are enough to win this debate.
First, damage. It’s pointed out by Con that KK needs to destroy EK’s brain in order to win the fight. Pro’s analogy to infinite Ronald Raegans cuts against him, since it provides a clear demonstration of just how powerful EK’s healing abilities are, showing that KK is likely to get more and more fatigued over the course of the fight. And since the person regenerating is still the same and the Pro’s objection to the Avalon got dropped, I’m counting this as something that makes EK a very strong fighter. Furthermore, Pro points out that KK can’t always dodge the Origin Bullets, as evidenced by the fact that he resorts to blocking one of them with his arm. KK will have opportunities to damage EK as well, but as both sides seem to agree, EK can recover from damage pretty quickly. A lot depends on whether KK uses the black keys remotely to block the bullets, but Con argues that KK won’t use them defensively. Pro focuses on the keys’ offensive abilities, which doesn’t contest Con’s point about their defensive use.
Next, speed. It seems like EK is faster when the time alter is in play, but KK’s reflexes have the advantage when the time alter isn’t in play. This is enough to convince me that EK will have at least a few opportunities to hit KK with Origin Bullets over the course of the fight.
In the end, while it’s conceded that KK might have an advantage in a limited scope like a closer ranged fight, Con shows that there are more ways for EK to damage KK than the other way around. KK specifically has to destroy EK’s brain, which EK simply needs to hit KK enough to overwhelm his durability and does inflict some lasting damage. There are some references to other fights and stats that I didn’t explicitly mention, but I think the key points here are enough to give EK the advantage. I also wouldn’t weigh stats or other fights as strongly as what’s shown in the video (except maybe for context) since the description specifically says the debate is about this fight.
Hence, Con wins my vote.
Thank you!
Thank you for voting!
All good. I’ll make sure anyone who reads this is directed to the comments for this round.
"Two, these are not the sole factors that determine superiority. I’ve offered several other factors, including preparedness, proficiency with weapons, adaptability and tactics, all of which demonstrate superiority in distinct ways."
These should all fall under skills and abilities. Tactics, adaptability, and proficiency with weapons are all an extension of skill. But Emiya Kiritsugu having a range of weapons or being a jack of all trades wouldn’t necessarily make him superior to Kirei’s mastery of a single weapon per se, just more versatile.
"And yes, that means mistakes are a factor, too. Making more mistakes makes one an inferior fighter, no matter how advanced they are, and capitalizing on those mistakes makes one a superior fighter. It’s not just fair but necessary to consider these in the context of this debate."
Performance doesn’t = skill.
A professional pianist could tank their live performance and an amateur pianist could outperform them if the professional either slacked off or was lazy. But the skill gap still exists, even if it isn’t obvious at the time. The performance does not make the amateur pianist the better pianist.
And Kirei’s mistakes did not cost him the fight, nor were they irreversible. For every mistake, Kirei adapted and overcame them.
"He does also argue that one fighter dominating a single exchange or a set of exchanges demonstrates overall superiority, and on that we disagree. We’re arguing for overall superiority in this fight, not superiority in specific exchanges."
Kirei is dominating the majority of this fight. And even at the end, Kirei is still controlling the terms of the fight and is comfortable. Never once visibly shaken. He never even believes his life is at stake and Kirei is fighting to kill, even with only one arm. While Kiritsugu is fighting to stay alive and do whatever he can to remain as far from Kirei as possible.
"First, Pro’s references to Kirei exceeding Kiritsugu in Time Alter come from the Fate/Zero light novel, not from the anime. In the description, Pro referenced this video as the focus of this debate, so drawing on the light novel exceeds that scope. At no point in the anime does Kirei exceed the speed of Kiritsugu in Time Alter. Again, that video shows Time Alter in effect at two distinct times: 0:44-0:48 and 1:43-2:01. It was not in effect when Kiritsugu tried to engage Kirei in melee combat. I agree that Kirei is adaptable in melee combat and can use it to great and devastating effect, but he’s not the only one who can adapt to new techniques on the fly, as Kiritsugu has demonstrated similar adaptability to a range of techniques.[2]
Second, despite Kirei’s general speed advantage outside of Time Alter, Kiritsugu’s attacks land twice (once hitting his Black Keys and once in the arm). So either he couldn’t dodge, or he chose not to dodge. I’ll come back to the “why” of this later, but this shows that Kirei’s advantages are far from insurmountable and that even his Command Seals can only do so much to protect him. It doesn’t help Kirei that anytime he uses his own magic, he can be effectively one-hit KO’d. The previous mage to take an attack from Kiritsugu’s Origin Bullets that hit their magic circuits was Kayneth, who was incapacitated to the point that he required extensive help just to move his hands.[3] No amount of healing magic or resilience on Kirei’s part will prevent that, which is why Pro’s efforts to list Kirei’s magic capabilities fall flat. They may demonstrate his superiority elsewhere, but not here."
The subject is Kirei and Kiritsugu’s fight from The Fate Zero series. The video in the description is an example to provide clarification to voters what it is we’re discussing.
The novels are an extension of the anime. Therefore any feats that novel Kirei possesses, the anime Kirei also has. Even if they aren’t demonstrated on-screen.
The novel is clarification and evidence which bolsters my case, and is an extension, not a distinction from the anime. Therefore, it falls within the scope of this debate.
-finish-
In the rematch between Maiya and Kirei. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA07zKZ6FbM
Maiya shoots rapid fire at 9:10 , but Kirei has already moved out of range and returns the favor by impaling her leg with a black key as a thrown projectile. He rushes her and goes on the offense, and she shoots rapid fire at him as he advances. But he blocks and parries each of the bullets once again with success, and hits her before she can shoot him again.
Kiritsugu has already run out of calico bullets from wasting them on Kirei. So Kirei should have an easy time engaging Emiya Kiritsugu, now that Emiya is forced to now rely on the origin bullets as a last resort.
Rebuttals
"Pro has moved the goalposts when it comes to Avalon. At no point in the description or his first round did Pro limit our characters to items or skills that are solely extensions of their abilities. If that was true, then Pro’s claim that Kirei’s Command Seals function in this fight also would not hold up, since they are granted by the Holy Grail or inherited from and not an extension of Kirei’s abilities[1]. He also justifies the inclusion of Kiritsugu’s guns, which are items he brings with him like Avalon. So not only is he imposing late rules on what my character has access to after referencing Avalon as a factor himself in R1 (it’s almost a quarter of his opening round), but he’s applying that restriction arbitrarily."
There isn’t a rule that you can’t use avalon in your case. I’m just making the point that it doesn’t count, as Kiritsugu obtained avalon from sheer luck. Not preparation or resourcefulness or training. It was given to him as a gift. And the ability to keep respawning until your opponent’s health bar goes zero is not a factor that defines whether someone is a superior or inferior fighter, that makes them a luckier fighter.
These throwing projectiles would have disarmed his weapon by knocking it from his grip, or they would have punctured a vital organ, killing him. To stop these black keys, Kiritsugu has to actively defend himself by using his gun as a shield, blocking, or avoiding. But defending himself means diverting from his original plan of going for a clear shot, as he would have to move his full body and point the gun in a different direction just to guard himself, eliminating his chance of hitting a clear target.
Now Kiritsugu could decide to just shoot anyway, but he has to do it quickly. But if he does that, then he sacrifices his positioning for Kirei to deliver a killing blow without any guarantee that he even hits Kirei. Emiya Kiritsugu dies from getting cut in half by the black keys.
Given that Kirei has the super-ability to predict attacks. Combined with his tactics of blocking bullets, or stopping pre-fire gun shots. It is unlikely that the Origin Bullet would even land. Kirei is also fast enough to dodge, avoid, and evade them. He doesn’t have to block.
When the first origin bullet is shot, Kirei blocks it with his black keys. 0:27
When Emiya Kiritsugu first shoots an army of bullets at rapid fire with his machine gun, Kirei deflects and parries all of them with nonchalance and finesse. 0:53 These machine guns hold calico bullets and are rapid-fire which are significantly faster than a single origin bullet which can only be shot one at a time. Kirei blocking all of these bullets is a demonstration of his speed.
Kirei also successfully blocks the rapid fire calico bullets even while he was taken off-guard and by surprise, using only his arms and bulletproof leather. 1:34
In this separate encounter. When Maiya fires multiple rounds at Kirei, he has already pre-reacted to the gunfire by moving out of range and flinging a black key which knocks her gun from her grip. 5:45
Fate Zero Reaction Episode 6 - MAYA vs KIREI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJ-jKrAT2TA
Just to clarify. This subject is about which fighter demonstrates superiority in this fight.
This debate isn’t about who would eventually win, I feel we’re getting slightly off-topic here.
Another point I’d like to make is that skill does not = performance.
Therefore, a stronger and more skilled fighter is still the superior fighter against an opponent that fights dirty and wins.
No amount of tries on Kiritsugu’s part makes him the better fighter, even with avalon constantly reviving him. I would argue that every death he experiences instead reinforces Kirei’s abilities as the superior fighter. But I do believe Kirei would still win against Emiya Kiritsugu, even with Emiya possessing avalon. My point is that Kiritsugu's avalon is irrelevant to what defines the superior fighter.
Con insisting that whoever makes the better use of opportunities is the superior fighter, but if we are considering this from a points-based perspective. Kiritsugu didn’t really get have a chance to exploit many opportunities and the ones he did weren’t enough to reverse the odds, as Kirei adapted accordingly and was still controlling the fight.
Kirei’s Combat Style - Bajiquan
At 3:27, we learn that Kirei’s style is designed for efficiency. A one-shot kill. One strike is usually all it takes to kill an opponent, which is what Kirei used against Emiya Kiritsugu. Which the latter was unable to dodge or counter, despite his double time-acceleration being in effect.
Con says my metrics-based framework provides no specifics or details for comparison. But they do, and I’ll clarify here. In another fight of Fate Zero, Kirei’s skills are too top-tier that he’s able to fight Maiya directly and incapacitate her. 9:37
Granted, Kirei could have easily killed her if he wanted to by ripping out her heart. Iri decides to restrain Kirei to a tree with her magic, but Kirei’s body is so muscle-bound that he is literally described as being like steel. He is able to break through the celestial strengths by breaking apart the tree with his bare hands alone. 11:19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA07zKZ6FbM
Because of his strength, power, and skills. It would be impossible for Kiritsugu to engage Kirei physically. If either of them were to exchange blows, it would be too one-sided. Kirei’s durability means he could absorb all of Emiya Kiritsugu’s strikes, but one strike from Kirei would kill Emiya Kiritsugu. Emiya Kiritsugu is not durable enough to absorb the impact of the strikes, or strong enough to block the punches. Even when Emiya Kiritsugu uses 2/3rds of his time-acceleration ability, Kirei is still able to land his one-shot punch. So it’s completely understandable that Kirei would absolutely curbstomp Emiya Kiritsugu in a close-ranged fight, despite using only one arm.
By the end of the fight, Kirei still had a variety of ways he could permanently kill Kiritsugu.
Landing a kick which would have splattered Kiritsugu’s brains. Kiritsugu’s back was to the wall and Kirei was closing the distance, so Emiya Kiritsugu wouldn’t have been able to stay far away for very long.
Striking him again in the chest and then stomping his head in while he was down. Or ripping his heart out.
Impaling him with his Black Keys.
Meanwhile, there was only one way for Emiya Kiritsugu to kill Kirei which was to get a direct shot, but this was unlikely for several reasons.:
Kirei had already thrown a few of his Black Keys at 3:17 while Kiritsugu was reloading.
Fate Zero__ emiya kiritsugu VS kotomine kirei 1080p - YouTube https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FDsOYtRwR5I&pp=ygUMI2tpcmVpa2VlbmFu
-continue-
My bad. I’m going to publish my argument in the comments. I thought I posted it already.
I heard you’re strong…
Thank you!
I assumed it would be more fun if I approached this debate competitively.
The Anakin Skywalker & Source Code debates were also fun, but my approaches to those 2 were casual.
Solid first round. I'll have to think about how I want to approach this.
Ohh hell yeah!
This will be lots of fun. I’m counting on this to be my strongest debate.
Let the battle commence!
Sounds good! I’m gonna need that headstart.
Looking forward to an entertaining, high-quality debate
Also, I should be good to start this over the next couple of days. Appreciate the leniency of a week to post, since I'll be on vacation in the middle of it (not going to affect my access to the internet, visiting my family).
Yes, I'd put Kiritsugu among my favorites. Love him for a lot of reasons, but being the subject of a Greek tragedy that plays out in grand fashion definitely helps.
Well, I could try.
Would you be interested in voting on this debate after it's done?
You don't have to worry about voting if it's too long of a read because 5 rounds can get a little lengthy
What are your thoughts on Kiritsugu as a character? Is he one of your favorites?
I didnt watch that anime, but after watching the video, I see there is space for both to argue. Not the type of anime I usually watch, but looks fun. However, Kirei lost an arm there, obviously. Thats gonna be a very tough one to argue.
well thx for the consideration, but uh not now i mean well even if it were available i wouldnt hv been able to cz i hv my exams which means i'll be blacking out for some time now meowww 😑 but uh u watch anime as well?
You're welcome to participate!
I can always recreate this one, if anyone is interested in the subject matter
nehhhhhhhhh nnnoooooo fairrr whyyyy can't i participate (⋟﹏⋞) , thou even when i want to i can';t [sighhhhhh] (╥﹏╥)
Cool, I should be able to respond to this in a couple of days.
I extended the response time to a week.