Instigator / Pro
1577
rating
100
debates
60.0%
won
Topic
#6149

Catholic doctrine has an excessive focus on limiting pleasure

Status
Debating

Waiting for the next argument from the contender.

Round will be automatically forfeited in:

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DD
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HH
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MM
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Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Rated
Number of rounds
3
Time for argument
Three days
Max argument characters
10,000
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Minimal rating
None
Contender / Con
1587
rating
185
debates
55.95%
won
Description

No semantic arguments allowed. Semantic arguments count as forfeit/concession. BOP is equal, you have to justify catholic doctrine just as much as I have to point out it's flaws.

Round 1
Pro
#1
Catholic doctrine forbids any form of intoxication or sexual activity beyond that in which the aim is reproduction in the context of marriage. The exact interpretation can be a bit iffy but the church generally treats it as "all recreational drug use and sex merely for pleasure is a grave sin". Despite rationalizations, what this really boils down to is the idea that pleasure is evil in itself. I believe that this element of Catholicism is very harmful because you aren't an inherently bad person for masturbating or drinking alcohol any more than you are a good person for not doing those things. If Catholics spent less time being crippled by guilt because they masturbated last week they might be able to actually focus on improving themselves and being good people in meaningful ways.

Once you realize that smoking tobacco is allowed but smoking marijuana is considered a mortal sin, you should be able to realize how nonsensical it is if you have a lick of sense. Tobacco smoking poses a much greater risk of causing lung cancer, a much greater increase in stroke risk, tobacco products contain far more toxic chemicals on average, and because of the tar it leaves in lungs it reduces oxygen intake more. The literal only reason then for banning marijuana is that it generates too much dopamine and pleasure is evil for some reason. Catholics will use the dishonest excuse that mind altering substances leave you more open to demonic attack, but the reduced oxygen from smoking cigarettes can also damage the brain and thus impair reasoning and leave you more open to demonic attack. Do you really think the supreme creator of the universe would be retarded like Catholics seem to be?

It gets even worse though, because since being high/drunk is a mortal sin it's actually better to murder someone then repent afterwards than it is to consistently get a little drunk and high on the weekends even if you don't hurt anyone doing the latter and otherwise live a good Christian life. Every time you commit a mortal sin you lose salvation, but after repenting sufficiently you can regain it. This means that you are less likely to go to hell if you brutally torture someone and murder someone once and then sufficiently repent, because if you smoke weed and drink regularly you will lose your salvation every single time you do it. This proves beyond any doubt that Catholic doctrines limiting drug use or sexual activity have NOTHING to do with being a better person, Catholics literally just hate pleasure. This applies to masturbation too, Catholics believe that God prefers you to murder someone once over masturbating multiple times.


Con
#2
Counter-Resolution: Catholicism is consistent with biblical standards about fighting pleasure.

The biblical take on pleasure necessitates a strict worldview on seeing pleasure as an inherently bad thing. Diverting from this course of action has divine consequences beyond your imagination. According to The Bible, a husband need not even be guilty of sleeping with another woman who isn't his wife to be guilty of infidelity, as even a celebrity crush or the desire itself is a sin. In Matthew 5:28-29, God urges his followers to deliberately blind themselves as a means of avoiding the sin of lust. Matthew 5:28-29

Criteria of Excess

  • We are ultimately attempting to determine whether the catholic doctrine on fighting pleasure is acceptable or not. If it is declared unacceptable, then that means that the strictness of the doctrine is unnecessary. To determine this, I will apply a biblical framework. If the catholic doctrine is adhering to the bible's statements on pleasure, then this means that Con's problem is not with catholic doctrine, but biblical doctrine.
From God's point of view in terms of morality, there is no distinction between partaking in pleasure either casually or recreationally or overindulging in it because pleasure itself is inherently evil.
While pragmatically, most might disagree with this and not actually see pleasure in moderation as a bad thing. The fact remains is that this is a more liberal viewpoint, while the catholics are abiding by a rule framework that is an ancient code of ethics. There is nothing wrong with abstaining from pleasure. As the greatest pleasure of all is to follow the Word of Christ.

Whoever loves pleasure will be a poor man; he who loves wine and oil will not be rich. Proverbs 21:17

Round 2
Pro
#3
If Catholic doctrine aligns with biblical values it is not accurate to say: 

Con's problem is not with catholic doctrine, but biblical doctrine.
You are saying they are one in the same in this instance, yet I have a problem with one and not the other? That is pretty nonsensical.

You are merely arguing based on an appeal to authority, only it is not solely the authority of the catholic church but primarily of the bible. Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy and can be dismissed if there isn't evidence accompanying it. 

I will now follow up with a syllogism that proves Catholic doctrine has an excessive focus on limiting pleasure

Major premise: Pleasure is desirable by definition unless it causes more harm than good, because it feels good and isn't assumed to be inherently harmful by default

minor premise: Neither Catholicism or the bible provide evidence that it typically causes more harm than good

conclusion: pleasure in itself is good and catholic doctrine is false

We know for a fact that pleasure feels good, we know for a fact that pleasure isn't universally harmful within temporal and observable reality. The burden of proof is entirely on the side of Catholic doctrine to demonstrate that pleasure is bad and that it causes you to go to hell. Seeking pleasure is more enjoyable than avoiding it by definition, so the default course of action is to seek pleasure unless it is solidly proven to be a bad idea.

Catholics believe in a God that would rather you die of lung cancer than feel good.

Catholics believe in a God that prefers you to murder someone than to live a peaceful but hedonistic life.

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Round 3
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