Instigator / Pro
0
1494
rating
10
debates
50.0%
won
Topic
#6400

God exists

Status
Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics
Better arguments
0
0
Better sources
0
0
Better legibility
0
0
Better conduct
0
0

After not so many votes...

It's a tie!
Parameters
Publication date
Last updated date
Type
Standard
Number of rounds
2
Time for argument
Two days
Max argument characters
30,000
Voting period
One week
Point system
Multiple criterions
Voting system
Open
Contender / Con
0
1439
rating
14
debates
42.86%
won
Description

No information

Round 1
Pro
#1
Thanks to my opponent for accepting this debate.

Contention 1: The Second Law of Thermodynamics

The Second Law of Thermodynamics essentially states: The state of entropy of the entire universe, as an isolated system, will always increase over time. The second law also states that the changes in the entropy in the universe can never be negative.

Simplification: In a closed system, usable energy decreases over time (entropy increases).

  • The Second Law states that in a closed system (like the whole universe), entropy always increases over time.
  • This means the universe is gradually running out of usable energy and moving toward more chaos.
  • Due to this increase in disorder, scientists and philosophers state that the universe must have had a starting point when entropy was very low — meaning the universe began in an ordered state.
  • Since something cannot create itself, there must have been an external cause or creator that brought the universe into existence.
  • That creator is God

Contention 2: The Law of The Conservation of Mass:

The Law of The Conservation of Mass essentially states: mass cannot be created or destroyed

  • According to the law, if matter cannot be created nor destroyed, where did it come from?
  • There's always an artist behind a painting - God is described as an eternal and divine being, leaving reasonable justification that God is the artist behind the construction of matter.
Contention 3: The Fine -Tuning of The Universe:

  • The physical constants of the universe (like gravity, the cosmological constant, the strong nuclear force, etc.) are balanced with extreme precision. The smallest change in these constants would make life physically impossible.
  • For instance, if gravity were slightly stronger, stars would burn too quickly; if slightly weaker, stars wouldn’t form at all.
  • The cosmological constant (which controls the expansion rate of the universe) is fine-tuned to 1 part in 10^120 — a level of precision so extreme it's like throwing a dart across the entire universe and hitting a coin-sized target.
Contention 4: Information theory and DNA:

  • DNA contains complex, coded information; like a biological language.
  • Scientific laws show information doesn’t arise from random chance, especially highly ordered and functional information.
  • This leads to DNA pointing to an intelligent source — God.
Contention 5: The Uniformity of Nature:

  • Science concludes that the laws of nature are constant. (Eg. - gravity).
  • Precisely optimized and fixed order implies a law enforcer; not chaotic or random chances.
  • Nature follows mathematical patterns (e.g., Fibonacci sequences, fractals, laws of physics).
  • this mathematical elegance reflects a rational Mind. (a divine intelligence.).
Contention 6: Consciousness:

  • Science cannot fully explain consciousness. (Eg. -Our inner awareness, thoughts, and experience.)
  • Consciousness points towards a non-physical origin.
  • That non-physical origin is God.
Contention 7:The Uniformity of The Universe:

  • Physical laws apply across the entirety of the universe.
  • uniformity is not required by any physical principal.
  • It is logical to conclude that there is a creator governing it all.
Common Counter Argument: Who Made God?

Nobody Made God.

Here's why:

  • General Relativity + Big Bang: Time itself began at the Big Bang.
  • Whatever caused the universe must be timelessspaceless, and immaterial - attributes often associated with God; who is described as eternal.

Conclusion:

the Big Bang, law of physics, the flawless organization of the universe despite it's immense complexities, biological coding and mathematics all point towards an infinitely intellectual and eternal creator.
Con
#2
Contention 1: The Second Law of Thermodynamics
Contention 2: The Law of The Conservation of Mass:
"Since something cannot create itself, there must have been an external cause or creator that brought the universe into existence.
That creator is God" - Pro

. . . But then what created God?
While the idea of existence always 'just existing is 'weird, it seems more contained than pushing the cause back.
I don't see how pushing the cause back 'solves anything, the problem is still there,
How can that external cause or creator be?

Additionally I'd argue even if there 'was an external cause,
It would not necessarily be 'God as many religions commonly recognize God.
. . . Course it might with some, but a lot of what people 'identify as God, seems caught up in actions God took.

I don't think my argument that things just 'exist is very satisfying,
Humans, always looking for the cause, before, why, meaning.
But, 1+1=2 and energy, 'exist.
We see and know 'them, not so many of us see and know 'God.

For all we know existence reaches some critical mass of chaos,
Becomes a single massive black hole, only to explode outward in a Big Bang ad nauseam.

Some people say,  "If you could see far enough, you would see the back of your head"

Perhaps that is what this existence is, an eternal repetition of monkeys at typewriters,
Every possibility eventually being, as time loops around to the start again.
Eternal return, as some people say.

"eternal and divine being"
"must have been an external cause or creator"
"That creator is God"
- Pro

To me, these three seem assertions, and 'jumps in logic.
'Why must there be?
What does eternal and divine 'mean?
What is God?

Contention 3: The Fine -Tuning of The Universe:
If existence has infinity to gamble, our current state of existence was 'bound to happen at 'some point.
We're just 'lucky perhaps.

Fish may rain from the sky, Does it have to mean a deity?

I argue, Life exists because certain conditions happened to be met,
Even if unlikely it would happen.
Intelligent design of some type would be more believable to me if the conditions for life did not appear to be met.
An oasis in the desert? Reasonable. A city with Hanging Gardens? 'That, Looks artificial.

Contention 4: Information theory and DNA:
Contention 5: The Uniformity of Nature:
"This leads to DNA pointing to an intelligent source — God."
- Pro

Seems a jump to me, wouldn't a simpler more likely explanation be it just 'exists.

"highly ordered and functional information."
- Pro

Just seems to me the way of things.
Existence 'is as it 'is, when something is, it does what it 'is.
Patterns emerge from that.

"like a biological language."
- Pro
Does not mean language.

Plants may exude chemicals when being eaten that other plants react to, doesn't mean they're speaking a 'language.
Just 'reaction, same as if a rock falls and sparks a fire, just get more complicated as organisms happen to get more complicated acording to the nature of existence.

A glade in a forest can 'seem a garden, an unnatural clearing of trees, but it is just nature doing as nature does. And happening by causations chance, an 'eventual roll of laws.

Humans 'look for patterns, for order, and assign 'meaning.
Even in places where there 'is no greater meaning than something being what it is.

"this mathematical elegance reflects a rational Mind. (a divine intelligence.)."
- Pro

Or perhaps our minds reflect the uniformity and elegance of existence.

Contention 6: Consciousness:

The lack of full explanation, points to a lack of full explanation.
It's a 'jump I say, to claim anything more.

Additionally many argue for consciousness 'being physical or emergent 'of physical.
If I bash myself in the head with a rail spike, I've a change in consciousness.

Contention 7:The Uniformity of The Universe:
"It is logical to conclude that there is a creator governing it all."
- Pro

Again I argue it seems to me a jump, it's just existence doing as existence does.

Common Counter Argument: Who Made God?
"Whatever caused the universe must be timeless, spaceless, and immaterial - attributes often associated with God; who is described as eternal."
- Pro

Why can the material world not be timeless, spaceless, and immaterial?
If it has existed forever,
Expands into nothingness back onto itself,
Contains immaterial concepts?

God is frequently something 'specifically defined by humans in their cultures.
Attributations of a 'being and their actions,
Yet if proof never comes, if old ideas are discounted, then much of the God is discounted.

Conclusion:
I don't see the 'need for a creator.
The forest glades simply 'are.
Many outcomes fail, many animals flawed and die.
But they are not flawed, because there are no true ends.
It's just dice.
. . . .

But out of source point paranoia, an addon.

The sun, some say,
"formed approximately 4.6 billion[a] years ago from the gravitational collapse of matter within a region of a large molecular cloud. Most of this matter gathered in the centre; the rest flattened into an orbiting disk that became the Solar System. The central mass became so hot and dense that it eventually initiated nuclear fusion in its core."

Fuel,
"The origin of fossil fuels is the anaerobic decomposition of buried dead organisms. The conversion from these organic materials to high-carbon fossil fuels is typically the result of a geological process of millions of years.[4] Due to the length of time it takes for them to form, fossil fuels are considered non-renewable resources."

Bunch of useless energy, 'eventually becomes useful again.

Round 2
Pro
#3
From Con's response, directly referring to a creator as God seems abrupt, overwhelming or "a jump in logic".
Let's refer to God as a higher power (HP).

My position:

I accept that HP cannot be scientifically proven. However, I argue that the concept of a Higher Power — a necessary, eternal, non-contingent source of all existence — offers the most coherent explanation for the fact that anything exists at all. While naturalistic explanations deal well with ‘how’ things work, they do not answer why there is something rather than nothing. For that, a metaphysical foundation is not only useful — it may be required.


"But then what created God"

  • HP is described as a being who has always been, and always will be.
  • We as humans are fixated upon the idea that there is a cause/initiator for everything.
  • The problem is that if you keep going back in time and asking the question - what created this? - You will eventually find that there is a starting point, who has not been created, but is the beginning of creation itself. Hence the organisms of our realm being called CREATURES - originating from the Latin word "creatura," which means "something created" or "a created being".
A step further:

  • HP is described to live outside of time itself, outside of the human realm.
  • Furthermore, the concept extends - a being outside of time itself, where there is 0 human knowledge - lives within conditions, realms, concepts, etc where the concept of creation may not be necessary for life to exist.
"But, 1+1=2 and energy, 'exist."
"We see and know 'them, not so many of us see and know 'God."
The intrinsic issue within this perception is - it implies that something essentially has to be seen for it to exist.

  • Not everything is as simple as 1+1 = 2. As much as we wish they were.
  • We do see and know these simple concepts, but there are still many things which remain unseen - this does not essentially mean that they do not exist.
"If existence has infinity to gamble, our current state of existence was 'bound to happen at 'some point."
"Life exists because certain conditions happened to be met"
"Just seems to me the way of things."
"Existence 'is as it 'is, when something is, it does what it 'is."
"Patterns emerge from that."
"It's just dice."
Not necessarily:

  • We cannot use the lazy argument that our existence is merely a "lucky" throw of a "dice" - there are none, or at least not enough signs that existence has "infinity" to gamble.
  • Looking at the world through the lens of - 'it is what it is, must have just been luck' - is dismissing the evidence of the beginning of the universe, along with  a lazy dismissal to the question of a HP.
Intelligent design of some type would be more believable to me if the conditions for life did not appear to be met.
An oasis in the desert? Reasonable. A city with Hanging Gardens? 'That, Looks artificial.
  • A city with hanging gardens would seem reasonable to you if you'd grow up in its reality.
  • Let's face it - we find the norms of our current reality to be the only thing reasonable. Anything outside of our reality - like cities sitting on oceans, or a city with hanging gardens may seem artificial.
  • Even the laws of physics are based upon our reality, had we lived in an opposite version of this reality, the laws and forms of this reality would seem artificial.
  • Therefore, the definition of an intelligent design can be anything.; it's easy to overlook intellect when you constantly see and live in it all you life.

"Why can the material world not be timeless, spaceless, and immaterial?"
"If it has existed forever,"
"Expands into nothingness back onto itself,"
"Contains immaterial concepts?"
  • The material world cannot be timeless, spaceless and immaterial.
  • We know from cosmic background radiation that there was a beginning of this universe, often referred to as the Big Bang.
  • Furthermore, this beginning of the universe is the beginning of time itself.
  • Ultimately, this world cannot be timeless because the concept of time itself was created from its beginning.
"But out of source point paranoia, an addon."

The sun, some say,
"formed approximately 4.6 billion[a] years ago from the gravitational collapse of matter within a region of a large molecular cloud. Most of this matter gathered in the centre; the rest flattened into an orbiting disk that became the Solar System. The central mass became so hot and dense that it eventually initiated nuclear fusion in its core."

Fuel,
"The origin of fossil fuels is the anaerobic decomposition of buried dead organisms. The conversion from these organic materials to high-carbon fossil fuels is typically the result of a geological process of millions of years.[4] Due to the length of time it takes for them to form, fossil fuels are considered non-renewable resources."

"Bunch of useless energy, 'eventually becomes useful again."
  • This is completely irrelevant to our argument.
  • Furthermore, I'd advise stepping away from using wiki, as it's not exactly reliable.
"For all we know existence reaches some critical mass of chaos,"
"Becomes a single massive black hole, only to explode outward in a Big Bang ad nauseam."
"Perhaps that is what this existence is, an eternal repetition of monkeys at typewriters,"
"Every possibility eventually being, as time loops around to the start again."
"Eternal return, as some people say."
All of the above is conceptual ramble, here's why:

  • Our existence, ever since the beginning of the universe; has been stable and flawless. Hence there being life on earth.
  • To form the hypothesis that "for all we know", "existence reaches some critical mass of chaos". OR. "for all we know", the universe "becomes a single massive black hole, only to explode outward in a Big Bang ad nausem" - is all so realistically ridiculous that it barely deserves a rebuttal.
  • The same goes for Con's concept that reality is simply just a time loop - which as said before, is not possible due to the concept of time itself being born upon the creation of the universe.
Conclusion:

Con generally bases his entire argument upon the following concepts:

  • It is was it is.
  • It was just a lucky occurrence out of infinity.
  • Since it's unseen can't exist.
  • It just happened to be.
Con's arguments are unrealistic hypotheticals, or a hypothesis that lacks reasoning.
The conclusion of a HP remains plausible due to the universe having a period of creation (proven through cosmic background radiation), and the HP's description of being outside of human realms.
Con
#4
Higher Power
"God as a higher power" - Pro
Is 'a definition, but as such is not in description, I am not locked into it.
Some people view money as a higher power, base their life around it.
But many other people 'don't view money as their 'God.
More 'common is the view of God as some 'person.
Nor is it the most common for religious individuals to see higher 'powers/non persons as God.

"a necessary, eternal, non-contingent source of all existence — offers the most coherent explanation for the fact that anything exists at all. While naturalistic explanations deal well with ‘how’ things work, they do not answer why there is something rather than nothing."
- Pro
If God is not a 'person, and just some 'higher 'power, some 'law, then it is a naturalistic explanation.
How can the supernatural 'be anything other than naturalistic?
If it has some nature, can be experienced, it would be just another part of existence.

Time
"You will eventually find that there is a starting point, who has not been created, but is the beginning of creation itself." - Pro
Seems to me an assumption, when have we 'ever gone back and 'seen this starting point?

When 'ever have we had an example of a being living outside of time and existence,
If something lives in concepts, then it does not 'live,
It only 'lives in concepts metaphorically.

Seeing is believing,
Even the Earth going around the sun, ought be observed in 'some fashion.
Even to believe the Sun revolves the Earth, some seeing is foundation to reasonable belief.
The 'less we see something or proofs, the less reason to believe it.

Design
There is not yet reason to assume 'more than a roll of the dice.
As a glade is chance, a planet with life is chance.

"A city with hanging gardens would seem reasonable to you if you'd grow up in its reality.
Let's face it - we find the norms of our current reality to be the only thing reasonable. Anything outside of our reality - like cities sitting on oceans, or a city with hanging gardens may seem artificial." - Pro
Pros argument is that we cannot tell intelligent design from unintelligent design,
'If that were the case,
Then there is not reason to think we have any evidence of intelligent design.
We only 'have reality.

We can tell 'human designs, humans are intelligent.

Bangs
Why can there not be multiple big bangs?

Wiki is useful for basic or commonly held as true facts.
In this case it is useful to show how even 'sun die and are born.
How some processes take a long time, to suggest entropy is not forever.

Eternal Reoccurrences is a better theory, as it only requires what we have now.
'God, suggests some outside force of which we have no knowledge.
Further, God doesn't solve the problem of what caused God.

Ridiculous?
I don't think so.
"In mathematics and physics, the Poincaré recurrence theorem states that certain dynamical systems will, after a sufficiently long but finite time, return to a state arbitrarily close to (for continuous state systems), or exactly the same as (for discrete state systems), their initial state."

Final Thoughts
Con generally bases his entire argument upon the following concepts:
It is what it is.
It was just a lucky occurrence out of infinity.
Since it's unseen can't exist.
It just happened to be.

Without more evidence, there is no 'reason to assume more.
Yes lightning is more than 'just lightning,
But there is no reason to conclude Zeus out of it.
Conclude additional laws and science, sure, but why assume a person.
Assume a higher power if one wishes,
But a higher 'power isn't the current 'standard belief of what God is.

Lucky events happen, and we have no idea of when it all started.
The big bang many people say,
But if God is eternal and can supposedly create new starts to existence, why 'not existence?
What modern examples or 'proofs do we have of any God acting outside of reality?
Thus what 'need of God, if we can suppose they'd restart the universe the same way it'd restart itself?