Instigator / Con
14
1641
rating
63
debates
65.08%
won
Topic
#707
Is Calvinism True?
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
6
3
Better sources
4
4
Better legibility
2
2
Better conduct
2
2
After 2 votes and with 3 points ahead, the winner is...
Speedrace
Tags
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Pro
11
1504
rating
6
debates
66.67%
won
Description
No information
Round 1
Con
#1
1 Timothy 2:4 says: "[God] will have all men to be saved, And to come unto the knowledge of the truth. "
How could this be true if God selects only certain people to go to heaven? In fact, Why would he create certain people in the first place if he wasn't going to allow them to enter heaven? It makes no sense. In fact, It would entail controlling their free will:
John 14:6: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. "
So one has to choose Jesus in order to enter heaven. However, In the Calvinist view, We've already been selected to go to heaven. Why do we have to choose if God's chosen us already?
Besides this, You're basically saying that God has condemned people to sin beyond their free will, But God hates sin more than anything else. So you're essentially saying that he created people to do something he hates and they can't control it.
2 Peter 3:9: "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, As some understand slowness.
Instead
he is patient with you, Not wanting anyone to perish, But everyone to come to repentance. "
Why would he have to be patient and wait if he had already chosen who goes to heaven and who doesn't? It simply wouldn't matter. In the Calvinist worldview, God has created people to go to hell simply because he can, But that completely goes against the God that the Bible preaches.
John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, That whosoever believeth on him should not perish, But have eternal life. "
This says that God loves the entire world, And whoever believes in Jesus shall go to heaven and have eternal life, Not only those he supposedly hand-picked.
Besides this, If we were pre-destined, There would be no point in missionaries or spreading the word, Because those who go to heaven will go regardless of whether they hear of Jesus or not and those who will go to hell will go whether they hear of Jesus or not.
1 Peter 3:15: "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, Always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, Yet with gentleness and reverence;"
Why would we be called to minister to people who can't actually make a choice themselves?
Another point is that sin wouldn't matter at all, But look at Hebrews 10:16: "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, There no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, "
This shows how we can lose salvation, But that is not true in this Calvinist view.
A common Calvinist scripture is Ephesians 1:4-5. However, that view of it is not true. In 1:13 it specifically says: "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, The gospel of your salvation. When you believed, You were marked in him with a seal, The promised Holy Spirit, "
They were included in Christ when they believed, Also known as choosing. For more context, 1:1 says "Paul, An apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus"
He is talking to Christians here: "The Calvinist contends that certain individuals were chosen before the world began and predestined to become believers, But that is simply not what the text says. Paul teaches that those “in Him” have been predestined to become “holy and blameless” and “to be adopted as sons, ” but he never says that certain individuals were predestined to believe in Christ. Paul is speaking of what “the faithful in Christ” (vs. 1) have been predestined to become, Not about God preselecting certain individuals before the foundation of the world to be irresistibly transformed into believers. "'
Acts 13:48 is usually used out of context to explain the Calvinistic point. If you look at the context of that scripture, It is a setting where there are Jewish people, and then there are Gentiles. God is giving his favor to the Gentiles and giving them a revelation because they have been humble and received his word. God simply chooses to spread his blessings through Israel.
Acts 13:8:
"Therefore, My friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, A justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. "
This says that can get forgiveness if we believe, and it says everyone.
Another scripture used is 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. However, Context tells us how Gentiles were continually condemned by Jews, And God was saying that Gentiles were included in his plan. Also, He says that he chose them through sanctification and belief of the truth, So if your view was correct, God would be controlling their wills and making them believe in him. However, We know this not to be true.
Over to you! :)
Pro
#2
Thank you speedrace for this debate, hopefully we will be able to shed some light on the doctrine of predestination according to the scriptures. If there is a particular translation of the bible you wish to use please let me know in the comments.
Before i answer your questions i wish to lay a foundation of what predestination entails so we have equal footing for our debate.
What is predestination?
Predestination
Predestination,
in theology, is the doctrine that all events have been willed by God,
usually with reference to the eventual fate of the individual soul.
Explanations of predestination often seek to address the "paradox of
free will", whereby God's omniscience seems incompatible with human free
will. In this usage, predestination can be regarded as a form of
religious determinism; and usually predeterminism. According to wikipedia.
Why debate predestination?
The scriptures show heavy evidence of God who predetermines all things, purposes all things, fore ordains all things and it can be quite daunting and even absurd to people who are new to the bible or have a hard time understanding this mysterium that was revealed to the christians. To accept predestination will give more glory to God and a proper fear of their own humanity in order to properly serve God with reverence and understanding of their sinful nature. Also, with proper understanding and obedience to scripture, it will help the growing saint to understand the dependence on God for salvation through faith by grace and the cross, not by works, or by will, but by the will of God unto salvation.
When did the idea of predestination begin?
The idea of predestination is not found in the old testament as it was "hidden" from them by God. romans 8:28-30 shows where God predestined those he fore knew to be conformed to the image of Jesus. Ephesians 3:3-9 explains how the Holy spirit, the spirit of truth which Jesus told them would reveal all things. John 14:16-18 and John 16:13-15. 1 corinthians 2:7-14
Who is predestined to salvation then?
Those who are drawn by God to the doctrine, belief and salvation message through Jesus Christ John 6:39-45 However a person may not be able to tell you if you will be saved, that being said, there are certain attributes of the "Elect" as they are called. (not to be confused with Christ in the Old testament, specifically in isaiah, or the election of grace given to israel among the nations)
keep in mind that these attributes are not in order nor are they necessarily believed all at once, also bear in mind there are converts at old age so they are not accountable to time as long as they are alive.
They are sinners who were drawn by God ephesians 2:1-5
They believe the salvation message acts 2:38 and believe that their salvation is through Jesus Christ by his grace they are saved ephesians 2:8-10 (Also romans 10:8-11)
They fear God and workout their salvation Philippians 2: 12-13
They obey the word of God, even unto death james 1:22-26 acts 5:27-32 acts 7:59-60 1 john 2:5
They believe all scripture is profitable 2 timothy 3:15-17 romans 15:4
They believe the scripture has no error and is God inspired 2 peter 1:20-21
They believe God cannot lie hebrews 6:18 romans 3:4
They acknowledge their sin before God 1 john 1:7-9
They judge all things in a spiritual attitude 1 corinthians 2:15
They hold fast to the doctrine Ephesians 4:14-15
They have a humble attitude Philippians 2:3-13
They obey Romans 12
They "KNOW" God 1 John 2:3 1 john 4:7-21 (Emphasis on Know to understand that its a personal relationship, like a person knows their brother or wife or best friend, see matthew 7:21-23 for example of NOT knowing)
They love their "Brother" 1 John 2:10 (Brother has more than 1 application, We are brothers of christ as we enjoin in his works see hebrews 2:10-13 and matthew 12:50)
They hate the world 1 john 2:15-17 (In this context it shows hatred towards sin, however Satan is the prince of the power of the air and the God of this world ephesians 2:1-3 and 2 corinthians 4:1-5)
They leave the "Church" 1 John 2:19 (Church is not a religious system or a building as we know it today, it is the body of christ, the fellowship of believers In Jesus. hebrews 12:22-24. matthew 16:15-19 1 corinthians 3:16 2 corinthians 5:1-7)
They preach the gospel so others might hear and believe. mark 16:14-18 1 corinthians 9:16 romans 10:14-16
They purify themselves in hope 1 john 3:1-3
They WILL suffer persecution and are hated by the world 2 timothy 3:12-14 1 john 3:13
They are not hypocrites romans 2:21-24
They believe in one doctrine Galatians 1:8
What about those predestined to torment? What do they look like?
They are not able to please God and are "Of the flesh" romans 8:5-8
They willingly disobey God once they come to understand the scripture/gospel romans 1:18-32 romans 13:2 hebrews 10:26-27
They are enemies of God romans 5:10
They pervert the scriptures 2 peter 3:15-17 Jude 1:10-19
They are willfully ignorant of scripture 2 peter 3:3-7
They will say there is no God psalms 14:1 Psalms 53:1
They bring in false doctrines and dissention galatian 2:4 1 corinthians 11:18-20 jude 1:4 revelations 2:20-22
They act like christians but are not 2 corinthians 11:13-15
They turn from the truth 2 timothy 4:2-4
They exhibit works of the flesh Galatians 5:19-21
They defile the flesh Jude 1:8
They cannot "KNOW" the things of God 1 corinthians 2:14
They will reap death romans 6:20-21,23
So how DOES God predetermine?
God creates Good and Evil Isaiah 45:7
God judges all Gods Psalms 82:1-8
God over rides freewill jeremiah 25:27-31 Daniel 4:32-37
God uses evil to accomplish his will Genesis 18-20
God purposes all things for his glory colossians 1:13-19
Heaven cannot contain God 2 chronicles 2:5-6 isaiah 66:1
God's thoughts are not our thoughts isaiah 55:8-9
God is eternal Isaiah 51:6 psalms 102:26-27 isaiah 46:9-11
God remembers his people Isaiah 49:15-16
God declares the former things Isaiah 48:3-7,13 45:18-19,23 Isaiah 43:7-13 isaiah 42:8-9
God does things for his pleasure and for his own sake isaiah 48:10-11 isaiah 43:21
Jesus is the creator?
Yes colossians 1:16-20 John 1:1-4
As to your questions
Ill answer them next round.
Round 2
Con
#3
Thank you for your comprehensive response!
The problem with this view is that it means that God is creating sin. The people whom he creates that cannot control this. Yes, they choose to do this sinning, but there is no alternative for them to take.
Imagine if you were a teacher. You had two students, both of whom had been taught that 2+2=5. However, you only give a math textbook to one of those students and say that they need to study it to get a better understanding of math (there's no other source to learn math in this situation). When it comes to the pop quiz, does the other child deserve to fail because you gave him/her no option but to remain in ignorance while you gave the other the option to learn?
This is the position that you are saying that God is taking. It completely goes against the God that is described in the Bible. Not only is God loving (John 3:16) and just (Psalms 99:4), but he treats everyone equally (Romans 2:11).
How can he suddenly refuse access to heaven for some and still fit into this paradigm? I am not trying to claim to know the mind of God, nor am I saying that God is not justified in doing whatsoever he wills. However, what I am saying is that, between the verses that I just gave about God's qualities and the ones you say teach Calvinism, which are in direct contradiction, which would be more flexible? The ones you gave fall down much more easily than trying to warp a verse about God's love.
As to Romans 8, that is God predestining his offer of grace to the whole world, not a select group. God knew from the beginnings of the earth that he would give grace to everyone, and that is what this is saying. All of the other verses you gave are valid, but their meaning shifts when you aren't looking through a Calvinistic lense.
I'll now give you the chance to respond to my arguments. :)
Pro
#4
Very well, First your questions then ill show through scripture how God treats everyone more than fairly and is not an "Open theistic" God as you suppose romans 8 shows him as.
First, a few definitions to help understand will and grace.
Prevenient grace is a Christian
theological concept rooted in Arminian theology, though it appeared
earlier in Catholic theology. It is divine grace that precedes human
decision. In other words, God will start showing love to that individual
at a certain point in his lifetime.Wikipedia
Irresistible grace is a doctrine in
Christian theology particularly associated with Calvinism, which teaches
that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he
has determined to save and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance
to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to faith in Christ.Wikipedia
God’s sovereign or decretive will is also called His “hidden” will. It is “sovereign” in that it shows God
to be the Sovereign ruler of the universe who ordains all that happens.
It is “decretive” because it involves God’s decrees. It is “hidden”
because we are usually unaware of this aspect of God’s will until what
He has decreed takes place. There is nothing that happens that is
outside of God’s sovereign will. (I'll use term Decreed will in its place)
God’s revealed or preceptive will is not hidden from us. This facet of God’s will includes that which God
has chosen to reveal to us in the Bible—His precepts are plainly stated.
“He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD
require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with
your God” (Micah 6:8).
The preceptive will of God is what God wants us to do (or not do). For
example, we know that it is God’s will that we speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15), repent, and turn to God (Acts 3:19). It is God’s revealed will that we not commit adultery (1 Corinthians 6:18) or get drunk (Ephesians 5:18). God’s revealed will is constantly “making wise the simple” (Psalm 19:7). (I will also use prescribed will in its place)
justification (jŭsˌtə-fĭ-kāˈshən)
►
- n.The act of justifying.
- n.The condition or fact of being justified.
- n.Something, such as a fact or circumstance, that justifies: considered misgovernment to be a justification for revolution. See Synonyms at apology.
Arminianism Theology
1. Free Will: Sin does not control man’s will. He is sick and near-sighted, but
still able to obey, believe, and repent. He does not continually sin,
for his nature is not completely evil.
2. Conditional Election: God chose the elect based on their foreseen faith. He loves all men equally. God passed over no one; He gives everyone an equal chance to be saved. This is gleaned from I Timothy 2:4; II Peter 3:9; Matthew 18:14.
3. Universal Atonement: Christ died equally for all men, and paid a provisional price that made salvation possible for all, but guaranteed it for none.
4. Resistible Grace: Saving grace is resistible, for God does not overrule man’s free will. Man is born again after he believes, for faith and repentance are not gifts of God.
5. Falling from Grace: Believers may turn from grace and lose their salvation.
2. Conditional Election: God chose the elect based on their foreseen faith. He loves all men equally. God passed over no one; He gives everyone an equal chance to be saved. This is gleaned from I Timothy 2:4; II Peter 3:9; Matthew 18:14.
3. Universal Atonement: Christ died equally for all men, and paid a provisional price that made salvation possible for all, but guaranteed it for none.
4. Resistible Grace: Saving grace is resistible, for God does not overrule man’s free will. Man is born again after he believes, for faith and repentance are not gifts of God.
5. Falling from Grace: Believers may turn from grace and lose their salvation.
1 Timothy 2:4 says: "[God] will have all men to be saved, And to come unto the knowledge of the truth. "How could this be true if God selects only certain people to go to heaven? In fact, Why would he create certain people in the first place if he wasn't going to allow them to enter heaven? It makes no sense. In fact, It would entail controlling their free will:
I need to go over prescriptive will of God and his decreed will as i see it evident in your questions. prescriptive will of God is related to the law and follows after its principals, however is not enforced in commandment, an example of this is matthew 23:37 now a decreed will is authorative, having force. An example of this is jeremiah 25:27-31. Those who are predestined will follow after a perscribed will because they reflect the desire and nature of God, though still sinners and will fall short of it. As to why he creates certain people? For his pleasure and glory.
John 14:6: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. "So one has to choose Jesus in order to enter heaven. However, In the Calvinist view, We've already been selected to go to heaven. Why do we have to choose if God's chosen us already?Besides this, You're basically saying that God has condemned people to sin beyond their free will, But God hates sin more than anything else. So you're essentially saying that he created people to do something he hates and they can't control it.
The issue with the understanding here is the concept of time. See, God already fore ordained they will be there, but we are walking it out and we don't know if we are the "Elect" or the rejected. Again, this goes to the prescribed will of God, it is necessary for the elect to have a similar nature to God in order to obey and seek him. God hating sin is a part of his nature that both creates the decreed will of predestination and the prescribed will to show to us his likeness and desires that we might have them. Man is born a fallen being from adam, we cannot control our nature, however, God gives irresistable grace that will start leading that soul toward his decreed and perscribed will.
2 Peter 3:9: "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, As some understand slowness.Insteadhe is patient with you, Not wanting anyone to perish, But everyone to come to repentance. "Why would he have to be patient and wait if he had already chosen who goes to heaven and who doesn't? It simply wouldn't matter. In the Calvinist worldview, God has created people to go to hell simply because he can, But that completely goes against the God that the Bible preaches.
This again goes to irresistable grace and God showing his nature. God is showing in this passage how God is faithful and his perscribed will is not wanting any to perish. His decreed will is acts 17:30. where he commands all men everywhere to repent, however the ones who are not elect will disobey this command. Has the bible said anywhere that God created man to not die and to not suffer? again you are looking at his perscribed will and assuming the authority of the decreed will.
John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, That whosoever believeth on him should not perish, But have eternal life. "This says that God loves the entire world, And whoever believes in Jesus shall go to heaven and have eternal life, Not only those he supposedly hand-picked.Besides this, If we were pre-destined, There would be no point in missionaries or spreading the word, Because those who go to heaven will go regardless of whether they hear of Jesus or not and those who will go to hell will go whether they hear of Jesus or not.
The elect are the only ones who can believe on him, the rejected cannot do those things which please God, Things that please God are repentance and Faith. hebrews 11 goes into detail about faith and its necessity in order to please God. Hebrews 11:6
It is necessary for people to hear the word, because how can faith enter into their heart of what they have not known? You cannot worship something that you don't understand the nature of, you can praise it, but not worship. God chose the foolishness of preaching to reveal both his decreed will and perscribed will for the elect to hear unto repentance and salvation. 1 corinthians 1:18,21
1 Peter 3:15: "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, Always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, Yet with gentleness and reverence;"Why would we be called to minister to people who can't actually make a choice themselves?
So that in the revealing of truth that doubt might be assaulted, God may decide for a person to go through a hard time, death of a friend, depression etc to show himself on behalf of those who do not yet believe in God. Again, the elect don't always know they are the elect.
Another point is that sin wouldn't matter at all, But look at Hebrews 10:16: "For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, There no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, "This shows how we can lose salvation, But that is not true in this Calvinist view.
This shows the perscribed attitude of the rejected, The rejected come in all forms just as the elect do. Some of the rejected will recieve the knowledge of the truth, but it may not mix with their faith and so they turn back to the world. Backsliders as the church calls them. This scripture is stressing the power of rejecting and accepting the truth, the jews were turning people back to sacrificing unto God because they didn't believe in Jesus as the messiah. So its important for believers to know and understand that Jesus is the Final and Ultimate sacrifice that can't be improved upon or added to.
A common Calvinist scripture is Ephesians 1:4-5. However, that view of it is not true. In 1:13 it specifically says: "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, The gospel of your salvation. When you believed, You were marked in him with a seal, The promised Holy Spirit, "They were included in Christ when they believed, Also known as choosing. For more context, 1:1 says "Paul, An apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus"
This emphasis is the showing of their predestination which ephesians 1:4-5 doesn't show. Belief and recieving the holy spirit marks the elect. Yes, the holy people are believers, holiness is an attribute of God which he decreed back in the old testament "Be ye holy as i am holy" leviticus 11:44
He is talking to Christians here: "The Calvinist contends that certain individuals were chosen before the world began and predestined to become believers, But that is simply not what the text says. Paul teaches that those “in Him” have been predestined to become “holy and blameless” and “to be adopted as sons, ” but he never says that certain individuals were predestined to believe in Christ. Paul is speaking of what “the faithful in Christ” (vs. 1) have been predestined to become, Not about God preselecting certain individuals before the foundation of the world to be irresistibly transformed into believers. "'
Ive looked at the greek and their interpretation of ephesians isn't adding up. https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/1-5.htm
Acts 13:48 is usually used out of context to explain the Calvinistic point. If you look at the context of that scripture, It is a setting where there are Jewish people, and then there are Gentiles. God is giving his favor to the Gentiles and giving them a revelation because they have been humble and received his word. God simply chooses to spread his blessings through Israel.Acts 13:8:"Therefore, My friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, A justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. "This says that can get forgiveness if we believe, and it says everyone.
this is kinda butchered reading if you pardon my observation. 38-39 is clearly talking about how Jesus justifies those that believe on him that the law couldn't do for the jews, and this is true, paul talks about it later on about how the law fell short in justifying. romans 8. this is not about salvation specifically but justification.
Another scripture used is 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. However, Context tells us how Gentiles were continually condemned by Jews, And God was saying that Gentiles were included in his plan. Also, He says that he chose them through sanctification and belief of the truth, So if your view was correct, God would be controlling their wills and making them believe in him. However, We know this not to be true.
You want me to explain how God predestines us? by his spirit, he doesn't need control the will, he gives us the will to do what we do and he also holds us back from sin. psalms 19:13
Alright, now to deal with your open theism which if i may assert is a primary doctrine of arminianism which you either knowingly or unknowingly assert in your misunderstanding of "All" in romans 8. open theism asserts that everyone has the ability to be elect through choosing, This however undermines not only the perscriptive will of God but also the decree of Jesus Christ that only those who can come to Jesus are those whom the father Drawls. Also God has concluded all as sinners and unbelievers. Romans 3:23 romans 11:32
Again, im not a defender of calvinism, only the doctrine of predestination which they hold to in this debate, Im not about to start arguing arminianism.
(Don't bother checking, there are multiple spelling errors in my posts.)
Round 3
Con
#5
Before I start, I would like to clarify that I am not Arminiast and I am strictly arguing against predestination.
"Prevenient grace is a Christian theological concept rooted in Arminian theology, though it appeared earlier in Catholic theology. It is divine grace that precedes human decision. In other words, God will start showing love to that individual at a certain point in his lifetime"
Are you arguing for prevenient grace? I am not, I do not believe that God starts loving an individual at "some point," but rather that he has always loved everyone.
"God’s sovereign or decretive will
is also called His “hidden” will. It is “sovereign” in that it shows God to be the Sovereign ruler of the universe who ordains all that happens. It is “
decretive” because it involves God’s decrees. It is “hidden” because we are usually unaware of this aspect of God’s will until what He has decreed takes place. There is nothing that happens that is outside of God’s sovereign will."
So are you saying that someone getting shot, or a bomb killing children, or a man committing suicide are all God's will? And wouldn't this necessarily take away all free will of our own, rendering life meaningless?
"1. Free Will: Sin does not control man’s will. He is sick and near-sighted, but still able to obey, believe, and repent. He does not continually sin, for his nature is not completely evil.
2. Conditional Election: God chose the elect based on their foreseen faith. He loves all men equally. God passed over no one; He gives everyone an equal chance to be saved. This is gleaned from I Timothy 2:4; II Peter 3:9; Matthew 18:14.
3. Universal Atonement: Christ died equally for all men, and paid a provisional price that made salvation possible for all, but guaranteed it for none.
4. Resistible Grace: Saving grace is resistible, for God does not overrule man’s free will. Man is born again after he believes, for faith and repentance are not gifts of God.
5. Falling from Grace: Believers may turn from grace and lose their salvation."
I agree on 1, 2, and 4. For 3, I'm not sure what you mean when you say that Christ has not guaranteed salvation. If you mean he hasn't given it to everyone, then no, but if you mean that he only gives it to those that want and accept it, then yes. As for 5, I am still trying to figure out my opinion on that one.
"
Those who are predestined will follow after a
perscribed will because they reflect the desire and nature of God, though still sinners and will fall short of it. As to why he creates certain people? For his pleasure and glory."
Again, this does not fit the description of the loving, just God who treats everyone equally.
" Again, this goes to the prescribed will of God, it is necessary for the elect to have a similar nature to God in order to obey and seek him."
I disagree. Our nature must change in order for us to resist sin, but not to seek and follow God:
Galatians 2:20:
Galatians 2:20:
"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."
In your view, his nature must have inherently been different in order for him to accept Jesus, but this shows that it changed after.
"God hating sin is a part of his nature that both creates the decreed will of predestination and the prescribed will to show to us his likeness and desires that we might have them. Man is born a fallen being from adam, we cannot control our nature, however, God gives irresistable grace that will start leading that soul toward his decreed and perscribed will."
How does God hating sin create his will for some people to come to him and others not to?
"This again goes to irresistable grace and God showing his nature. God is showing in this passage how God is faithful and hisperscribed will is not wanting any to perish. His decreed will is acts 17:30. where he commands all men everywhere to repent, however the ones who are not elect will disobey this command. Has the bible said anywhere that God created man to not die and to not suffer? again you are looking at his perscribed will and assuming the authority of the decreed will."
Where is your proof that some people are not able to obey this command? Second, can you explain more about what you mean by the last sentence in this quote.
"The elect are the only ones who can believe on him, the rejected cannot do those things which please God, Things that please God are repentance and Faith."
So how does it make sense for God to stop some people from doing the things that please him and then to get mad at those people when they do what he made them to do, which is to not please him (in your view). The answer is that it doesn't make sense.
How does God hating sin create his will for some people to come to him and others not to?
"This again goes to irresistable grace and God showing his nature. God is showing in this passage how God is faithful and hisperscribed will is not wanting any to perish. His decreed will is acts 17:30. where he commands all men everywhere to repent, however the ones who are not elect will disobey this command. Has the bible said anywhere that God created man to not die and to not suffer? again you are looking at his perscribed will and assuming the authority of the decreed will."
Where is your proof that some people are not able to obey this command? Second, can you explain more about what you mean by the last sentence in this quote.
"The elect are the only ones who can believe on him, the rejected cannot do those things which please God, Things that please God are repentance and Faith."
So how does it make sense for God to stop some people from doing the things that please him and then to get mad at those people when they do what he made them to do, which is to not please him (in your view). The answer is that it doesn't make sense.
"So that in the revealing of truth that doubt might be assaulted, God may decide for a person to go through a hard time, death of a friend, depression etc to show himself on behalf of those who do not yet believe in God. Again, the elect don't always know they are the elect."
God has shown that he doesn't need word-by-mouth to communicate the gospel.
God has shown that he doesn't need word-by-mouth to communicate the gospel.
"For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse" (Romans 1:20)
Why would he have us waste our time with those that have no chance of going to heaven if the people he has irresistibly drawn to him will come by one way or another?
"This emphasis is the showing of their predestination which ephesians 1:4-5 doesn't show."
"This emphasis is the showing of their predestination which ephesians 1:4-5 doesn't show."
This is you reading into the scripture. The lack of predestination here shows that it is not valid.
"Ive looked at the greek and their interpretation of ephesians isn't adding up."
Could you explain what you mean?
"You want me to explain how God predestines us? by his spirit, he doesn't need control the will, he gives us the will to do what we do and he also holds us back from sin. psalms 19:13 "
Could you explain what you mean?
"You want me to explain how God predestines us? by his spirit, he doesn't need control the will, he gives us the will to do what we do and he also holds us back from sin. psalms 19:13 "
Any method that involves irresistibly drawing us toward the faith is controlling our free will. It is called "free" will because it is ours, and therefore our choice. If we are irresistibly drawn, that means it was God's choice, not our own.
"Alright, now to deal with your open theism which if i may assert is a primary doctrine of arminianism which you either knowingly or unknowingly assert in your misunderstanding of "All" in romans 8. open theism asserts that everyone has the ability to be elect through choosing, This however undermines not only the perscriptive will of God but also the decree of Jesus Christ that only those who can come to Jesus are those whom the father Drawls. Also God has concluded all as sinners and unbelievers. "
As I described, God wants everyone to come to him, so why then would he stop some from making the choice to come to him? Yes, all are sinners and unbelievers, which is why they must choose to come to him so he may make us new and whole.
Pro
#6
You have made some intriguing questions, Ill try to answer them as best i'm able.
Before I start, I would like to clarify that I am not Arminiast and I am strictly arguing against predestination.
Noted, i was simply comparing your beliefs with them as they hold similar beliefs as you agree with 3/5 of their 5 assertions of scripture here
I agree on 1, 2, and 4. For 3, I'm not sure what you mean when you say that Christ has not guaranteed salvation. If you mean he hasn't given it to everyone, then no, but if you mean that he only gives it to those that want and accept it, then yes. As for 5, I am still trying to figure out my opinion on that one.
Are you arguing for prevenient grace? I am not, I do not believe that God starts loving an individual at "some point," but rather that he has always loved everyone.
I am not, i recognize the concept of prevenient grace but i don't believe in it.
Now on to the questions!
So are you saying that someone getting shot, or a bomb killing children, or a man committing suicide are all God's will? And wouldn't this necessarily take away all free will of our own, rendering life meaningless?
yes and yes! but it wouldn't render life meaningless. Its not his prescribed will but it is decreed otherwise it wouldn't happen. What needs to be weighed in this observation is the fact we have satan also trying to destroy us, He cannot do anything God doesn't allow him however.
Again, this does not fit the description of the loving, just God who treats everyone equally.
He does treat everyone equally, but he has foreordained us all to a unique destiny. Ezekiel 18 explains the just and fairness of God (not considering predestination as they didn't know of it at that time) God is no respecter of persons acts 10:34-43. However, what we need to consider before accusing God of not loving is the idea of the sin he holds us back from and his expressed nature in prescribed will. 1 John 4:8
I disagree. Our nature must change in order for us to resist sin, but not to seek and follow God:
Galatians 2:20:"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."In your view, his nature must have inherently been different in order for him to accept Jesus, but this shows that it changed after.
Galatians is showing a change in nature "I am crucified with christ. it is no long I who live" This is showing a death of sin nature, which is necessary to understand in the requirements of repentance. Romans 6:1-11 talks more about this. colossians 2:6-15. and in my arguement i said "it is necessary for the elect to have a similar nature to God in order to obey and seek him"
so i agree with you, i believe you misunderstood my quote however.
How does God hating sin create his will for some people to come to him and others not to?
I was stressing his nature creates the will, not the hatred of sin. All are children of wrath however until they repent and come to the obedience of christ.
Where is your proof that some people are not able to obey this command? Second, can you explain more about what you mean by the last sentence in this quote.
2 corinthians 4:4 romans 8:7 in my question i was challenging the assertion of free will and if God said or revealed at anytime that mankind would NOT suffer or die? according to his decreed will.
So how does it make sense for God to stop some people from doing the things that please him and then to get mad at those people when they do what he made them to do, which is to not please him (in your view). The answer is that it doesn't make sense.
He never stopped them, he simply never gave them that will to such a degree that they would do it, but they hardened their hearts when challenged with it like pharaoh hardened his heart when commanded by moses to let God's people Go. If you read on, it shows God hardening his heart first and then pharaoh hardened his heart Afterwords. exodus 7:4,13. exodus 8:15 showing how God both affects the will of man and how man can agree with the willful disobedience as they are given over to a reprobate mind romans 1:28. as to why God gets mad at them, isaiah 10 is a good example! God had the assyrians to attack israel then God punished them for their heart and thoughts because of it. God weighs the spirits. proverbs 16:2 proverbs 21:2
God has shown that he doesn't need word-by-mouth to communicate the gospel."For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse" (Romans 1:20)Why would he have us waste our time with those that have no chance of going to heaven if the people he has irresistibly drawn to him will come by one way or another?
I agree, God never needed to do anything, but he chooses to do this so that those who didn't see his power might still have a chance to hear and believe. Again, sinners are blinded by the devil (who God uses) so that they can't see it. Again, because we don't know who the elect are, but if we are to be like God, we must seek after them like he does. His prescribed will shows his lovingkindness and love even toward sinners.
This is you reading into the scripture. The lack of predestination here shows that it is not valid.
Ephesians 1:4-5 shows evidence of predestination, however it doesn't give specific example of it like verses 7-13 do. Im not saying its invalid im saying it doesn't give clear examples here like it does later on.
Could you explain what you mean?
The original greek shows no word that could interpret to be "Become" as the website you show translated it.
Any method that involves irresistibly drawing us toward the faith is controlling our free will. It is called "free" will because it is ours, and therefore our choice. If we are irresistibly drawn, that means it was God's choice, not our own.
Exactly, we are born by God's choice, Paul puts it very well here. Acts 17:28. We cannot do anything without God. There is no evidence of free will in the decreed sense
As I described, God wants everyone to come to him, so why then would he stop some from making the choice to come to him? Yes, all are sinners and unbelievers, which is why they must choose to come to him so he may make us new and whole.
No one willingly chooses to come to God. psalms 53:1-5 and paul stresses it again in romans 3:9-20 to explain the grace of God drawls us to him.
Round 4
Con
#7
yes and yes! but it wouldn't render life meaningless. Its not his prescribed will but it is decreed otherwise it wouldn't happen. What needs to be weighed in this observation is the fact we have satan also trying to destroy us, He cannot do anything God doesn't allow him however.
Why wouldn't life become meaningless? Our meaning is derived out of the purpose we gain from our actions, so if we are just puppets then that means life is an illusion.
He does treat everyone equally, but he has foreordained us all to a unique destiny. Ezekiel 18 explains the just and fairness of God (not considering predestination as they didn't know of it at that time) God is no respecter of persons acts 10:34-43. However, what we need to consider before accusing God of not loving is the idea of the sin he holds us back from and his expressed nature in prescribed will. 1 John 4:8
If God treats all equally, then he gives everyone the opportunity to become a Christian. However, in the Calvinist view, this is not true. That is a direct contradiction. God not being a respecter of persons simply means that he doesn't look at your outside, he looks at your heart and your true beliefs. Also, how does God hold us back from sin?
Galatians is showing a change in nature "I am crucified with christ. it is no long I who live" This is showing a death of sin nature, which is necessary to understand in the requirements of repentance. Romans 6:1-11 talks more about this. colossians 2:6-15. and in my arguement i said "it is necessary for the elect to have a similar nature to God in order to obey and seek him"
I was saying that the change occurred after he believed. In the Calvinistic view, there must have been some change beforehand that allowed him to become a Christian in the first place.
I was stressing his nature creates the will, not the hatred of sin. All are children of wrath however until they repent and come to the obedience of christ.
What distinguishes the so-called elect from the non-elect? Why do they deserve to go to hell because of the way they were created?
2 corinthians 4:4 romans 8:7 in my question i was challenging the assertion of free will and if God said or revealed at anytime that mankind would NOT suffer or die? according to his decreed will.
No, however, God said he is working for our good. How is wanting someone to get brutally murdered working for that person's good? Or getting maimed in an earthquake or a tornado? Or burned in a natural fire?
He never stopped them, he simply never gave them that will to such a degree that they would do it, but they hardened their hearts when challenged with it like pharaoh hardened his heart when commanded by moses to let God's people Go.
If they cannot make the decision at all, that means he did stop them. Even if he let them do "the rest of the work for him" by continuing the denial process, that is still stopping them because he took away the will to do it to such a degree that they couldn't stop themselves from not doing it.
as to why God gets mad at them, isaiah 10 is a good example! God had the assyrians to attack israel then God punished them for their heart and thoughts because of it.
That's not true. God didn't punish them because of their hearts during it, he punished them because the Assyrian king took credit for the victory instead of giving it to the Lord. So my question remains, why does God get mad at these people for doing something he made them do?
Isaiah 10:12, 13, 15: "...I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks. For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom;...Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood."
I agree, God never needed to do anything, but he chooses to do this so that those who didn't see his power might still have a chance to hear and believe. Again, sinners are blinded by the devil (who God uses) so that they can't see it. Again, because we don't know who the elect are, but if we are to be like God, we must seek after them like he does. His prescribed will shows his lovingkindness and love even toward sinners.
Why does someone need to hear the word if they can't accept it?
Ephesians 1:4-5 shows evidence of predestination, however it doesn't give specific example of it like verses 7-13 do. Im not saying its invalid im saying it doesn't give clear examples here like it does later on.
It says "us." Where is your evidence that "us" excludes everyone else? Why wouldn't Paul simply be discussing God's omniscience and how he knew that that group of people would become Christians?
The scripture says that God chose those people "in love." He chose them because he loves them. As has been demonstrated multiple times in scripture, God loves everyone; it is simply his nature to do so. Therefore, if he chooses for salvation whom he loves, and he loves everyone, then he must logically therefore choose everyone. Anything else is contradictory.
The original greek shows no word that could interpret to be "Become" as the website you show translated it.
The word "become" is in your view of the scripture as well as mine. I don't see how this changes anything.
Exactly, we are born by God's choice, Paul puts it very well here. Acts 17:28. We cannot do anything without God. There is no evidence of free will in the decreed sense
Yes, we are born of God, but he gives us the free will to operate. That is our choice. Just because he gives us the platform to make our choice (our very lives, the Earth, the Bible, etc.) doesn't mean that he forces our choice.
No one willingly chooses to come to God. psalms 53:1-5 and paul stresses it again in romans 3:9-20 to explain the grace of God drawls us to him.
Yes, the grace of God does draw us to him. However, it does not force us to choose him. There is a stark difference between the two. Seeking God does not equate to choosing God.
Pro
#8
sigh, more rehash of scripture, i don't think you are going to understand what the bible says. But, i could be wrong! God has fore ordained understanding before we receive it, how? we have the will to seek it.
Why wouldn't life become meaningless? Our meaning is derived out of the purpose we gain from our actions, so if we are just puppets then that means life is an illusion.
The meaning of life is to serve God and in serving God we experience the Joys and pleasures of God, or, the temporary pleasures and deceitfulness of Sin, According to whom God has chosen for which.
If God treats all equally, then he gives everyone the opportunity to become a Christian. However, in the Calvinist view, this is not true. That is a direct contradiction. God not being a respecter of persons simply means that he doesn't look at your outside, he looks at your heart and your true beliefs. Also, how does God hold us back from sin?
I am not arguing calvinism, only predestination. Idk what calvinist views are. According to the word of God he does give people the opportunity to know him, However they will not know him because they have no will or desire from God to choose God. God being a respecter of persons means he doesn't respect any one person. God weighing the spirits is him looking at your heart and beliefs. How? Simple, he makes sure that such desire doesn't enter us. He is responsible for the will, or, the spirit that is in man.
I was saying that the change occurred after he believed. In the Calvinistic view, there must have been some change beforehand that allowed him to become a Christian in the first place.
God moved him to belief as he fore ordained that he would. Paul's testimony is that the Lord changed him on the road of Damascus when he was surrounded by light and Jesus spoke to him. It wasn't something he put in himself.
What distinguishes the so-called elect from the non-elect? Why do they deserve to go to hell because of the way they were created?
Why don't the elect go to hell? They were born in sin right? so they deserve the same punishment. The answer is God having mercy on whom he will and hardening whom he will in Romans 9.
No, however, God said he is working for our good. How is wanting someone to get brutally murdered working for that person's good? Or getting maimed in an earthquake or a tornado? Or burned in a natural fire?
The fact the person lived and breathed at all is a blessing. We don't deserve life. it might be the person murdered could have been a murderer himself, I don't know why God does things specifically, but the bible says that He has a purpose in Isaiah 41:21-23. I thinks its awfully great and Kind of God to establish a purpose for everything he does instead of just doing it because it pleases him. For christians we have this promise "All things work together for the good for them who are the called according to his purpose" Romans 8:28
If they cannot make the decision at all, that means he did stop them. Even if he let them do "the rest of the work for him" by continuing the denial process, that is still stopping them because he took away the will to do it to such a degree that they couldn't stop themselves from not doing it.
Never doing something is not the same as stopping yourself from doing it, even simple logic teaches us that. We don't have the will to serve God, psalms 53. Our inherent will is to do EVIL. We are SINNERS. i hope i'm getting this across to ya.
That's not true. God didn't punish them because of their hearts during it, he punished them because the Assyrian king took credit for the victory instead of giving it to the Lord. So my question remains, why does God get mad at these people for doing something he made them do?Isaiah 10:12, 13, 15: "...I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks. For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom;...Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood."
I just said that God punished them because of their heart, The bible says the thoughts proceed from the heart. matthew 15:18-9 Mark 7:21. As to why God Got mad at them? They didn't reflect his nature because he didn't allow his nature to be revealed that they might humble themselves.
Why does someone need to hear the word if they can't accept it?
I just told you, didn't you read? Some will accept it, others will not. Just like you aren't accepting the word of God regarding predestination, you just refuse to see it.
it says "us." Where is your evidence that "us" excludes everyone else? Why wouldn't Paul simply be discussing God's omniscience and how he knew that that group of people would become Christians?
You have to go to the greek to see it, but just from context and the fact that paul is writing to a CHURCH, that he is talking to christ believers. Read from verse 1 to verse 5. Infact, the whole chapter of ephesians 1 is talking to saints at ephesus and in the broadest context refers to other saints. Because verse 5 use active verb in reference to predestine. I advise looking at the Greek.
The scripture says that God chose those people "in love." He chose them because he loves them. As has been demonstrated multiple times in scripture, God loves everyone; it is simply his nature to do so. Therefore, if he chooses for salvation whom he loves, and he loves everyone, then he must logically therefore choose everyone. Anything else is contradictory.
Thats a misreading of verse 4, its like you just skipped the choosing part of the verse, KJV According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the
world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: NASB Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love. ESV even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Again you are advocating open theism of the scriptures which says that God has to save everyone, That limits the mercy of God to justice, Justice however demands that every sin be thrown in the lake of fire. Mercy is not Justice. God indeed loves every person, but he doesn't choose who will be saved by love, but by grace. Mercy is free to chose what he wishes to express it on and is a higher law than justice.
Not to mention you would completely misunderstand the context of verse 5 which says "To the Good will and pleasure of him" Not Through love
https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/1-4.htm the greek word ev can also mean "With" "To be with" or "Shall be with"
The word "become" is in your view of the scripture as well as mine. I don't see how this changes anything.
it is not. To become would mean that God made us divine sons, not that we were predestined to become divine sons. Seriously you need to read these links i post and the scriptures.https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/1-5.htm
Yes, we are born of God, but he gives us the free will to operate. That is our choice. Just because he gives us the platform to make our choice (our very lives, the Earth, the Bible, etc.) doesn't mean that he forces our choice.
There is no scripture or recognition of God concerning free will, in fact i gave verses earlier that dismissed the concept of free will. and don't think to use the "Free will offering" mentioned in the old testament, that has reference to a person moved by God to offer. Such as we are moved by God to have mercy on those we meet that are not doing well.
Yes, the grace of God does draw us to him. However, it does not force us to choose him. There is a stark difference between the two. Seeking God does not equate to choosing God.
Actually it does, The bible those that seek shall find. So to those who do seek God, they will find God. It does force us to him, otherwise we wouldn't chose him, The scriptures are plain when it says "there is none that choose God" how do you think we end up choosing him if we don't choose him? Something made us choose him.
Alrighty! i've gone over all your statements. I will leave Round 5 blank unless you have questions you really want me to answer.
Also i encourage everyone to read their bible! and not just 1 translation, but multiple, learn greek and hebrew and aramaic if you are inclined to! if not at least look at 2 or 3 versions and cross reference information in the scriptures! If you have the desire to seek God then i urge you this day to seek him while you are able! if you heart is stirred at the scriptures presented and you wish to know god, seek him! Those that seek will find, this is a promise from Jesus Christ. No man can come to God unless he is drawn by him, so do not repress the desire if you feel it leading you! Lord bless you all and peace and grace be on you!
God loves all of us and wants us to know him. He will help you to know him, depend on him for your salvation and mercy. Repent and seek him!
Round 5
Con
#9
The meaning of life is to serve God and in serving God we experience the Joys and pleasures of God, or, the temporary pleasures and deceitfulness of Sin, According to whom God has chosen for which.
If God is controlling us and everything we do, that's not serving.
I am not arguing calvinism, only predestination. Idk what calvinist views are. According to the word of God he does give people the opportunity to know him, However they will not know him because they have no will or desire from God to choose God. God being a respecter of persons means he doesn't respect any one person. God weighing the spirits is him looking at your heart and beliefs. How? Simple, he makes sure that such desire doesn't enter us. He is responsible for the will, or, the spirit that is in man.
Then replace "Calvinistic views" with "predestination views." Exactly, God doesn't respect any ONE person. He respects everyone EQUALLY. So how is stopping some people from believing and allowing others to believe respecting everyone equally?
God moved him to belief as he fore ordained that he would. Paul's testimony is that the Lord changed him on the road of Damascus when he was surrounded by light and Jesus spoke to him. It wasn't something he put in himself.
In the predestination view, the "elect" have had some spiritual difference in them since the beginning of time. However, here it says that the change occurred on the road.
Why don't the elect go to hell? They were born in sin right? so they deserve the same punishment. The answer is God having mercy on whom he will and hardening whom he will in Romans 9.
There is no "elect."
The fact the person lived and breathed at all is a blessing. We don't deserve life. it might be the person murdered could have been a murderer himself, I don't know why God does things specifically, but the bible says that He has a purpose in Isaiah 41:21-23.
I never said that we deserve
life. God says he works for our good, which goes beyond just giving us life.
And lots of people who aren’t murderers and are innocent are killed everyday.
I thinks its awfully great and Kind of God to establish a purpose for everything he does instead of just doing it because it pleases him. For christians we have this promise "All things work together for the good for them who are the called according to his purpose" Romans 8:28
I agree! So what’s God’s purpose for choosing some people
and not others?
Never doing something is not the same as stopping yourself from doing it, even simple logic teaches us that. We don't have the will to serve God, psalms 53. Our inherent will is to do EVIL. We are SINNERS. i hope i'm getting this across to ya.
I’m aware of our nature.
However, that doesn’t mean that we can ONLY do evil. Non-believers do good all
the time. This is why Jesus died to give us grace, so that we can CHOOSE salvation.
I just said that God punished them because of their heart, The bible says the thoughts proceed from the heart. matthew 15:18-9 Mark 7:21.
You originally offered
this as an example of God getting mad at people who did what he told them to
do. The showed that that was not true. So again, why does God get mad at sinners
for doing the only thing that they CAN do?
As to why God Got mad at them? They didn't reflect his nature because he didn't allow his nature to be revealed that they might humble themselves.
God: “I’m gonna make it
so these people can’t be humble”
Assyrians: “We got the victory by ourselves!”
God: Now I will destroy them for doing the thing that I just made them do.
How is that a loving God?
Assyrians: “We got the victory by ourselves!”
God: Now I will destroy them for doing the thing that I just made them do.
How is that a loving God?
I just told you, didn't you read? Some will accept it, others will not.
You’ve said that believers will go to God irresistibly, regardless
of if they hear the Word or not. So again, why are we told to preach to people who
will go to God regardless and to people who CAN’T go to God?
Just like you aren't accepting the word of God regarding predestination, you just refuse to see it.
You aren’t accepting the Word of God regarding choosing
salvation, you just refuse to see it.
You have to go to the greek to see it, but just from context and the fact that paul is writing to a CHURCH, that he is talking to christ believers. Read from verse 1 to verse 5. Infact, the whole chapter of ephesians 1 is talking to saints at ephesus and in the broadest context refers to other saints. Because verse 5 use active verb in reference to predestine. I advise looking at the Greek.
I’m aware that he was speaking to believers. You haven’t
explained why the “us” excludes everyone else.
Leader: We are strong, and we are brave. Let’s take the victory.
Follwors: Yeah, let’s do it!
Does the “we” here mean that ONLY these people are strong and brave? Obviously not.
Leader: We are strong, and we are brave. Let’s take the victory.
Follwors: Yeah, let’s do it!
Does the “we” here mean that ONLY these people are strong and brave? Obviously not.
Thats a misreading of verse 4, its like you just skipped the choosing part of the verse, KJV According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: NASB Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love. ESV even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
How is that a misreading? It literally says “in love.”
Again you are advocating open theism of the scriptures which says that God has to save everyone,
I’m not saying
that, I’m saying that God offers salvation to everyone and he saves those who
accept it.
That limits the mercy of God to justice, Justice however demands that every sin be thrown in the lake of fire. Mercy is not Justice. God indeed loves every person, but he doesn't choose who will be saved by love, but by grace. Mercy is free to chose what he wishes to express it on and is a higher law than justice.
So why does
he express his mercy on some people but not others?
Not to mention you would completely misunderstand the context of verse 5 which says "To the Good will and pleasure of him" Not Through love
You just said
that God has a purpose for everything and he doesn’t do stuff just for his
pleasure.
it is not. To become would mean that God made us divine sons, not that we were predestined to become divine sons. Seriously you need to read these links i post and the scriptures.https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/1-5.htm
Your view: God predestined a
select group of people to become Christians.
My view: God allows anyone who chooses to become a Christian.
Both have the word “become.”
My view: God allows anyone who chooses to become a Christian.
Both have the word “become.”
There is no scripture or recognition of God concerning free will, in fact i gave verses earlier that dismissed the concept of free will. and don't think to use the "Free will offering" mentioned in the old testament, that has reference to a person moved by God to offer. Such as we are moved by God to have mercy on those we meet that are not doing well.
John 7:17
Joshua 24:15
Romans 10:9-10
Mark 8:34
That’s only a few.
Joshua 24:15
Romans 10:9-10
Mark 8:34
That’s only a few.
Actually it does, The bible those that seek shall find. So to those who do seek God, they will find God. It does force us to him, otherwise we wouldn't chose him, The scriptures are plain when it says "there is none that choose God" how do you think we end up choosing him if we don't choose him? Something made us choose him.
You’re
referring to Romans 3:11. The same chapter in verses 21-24 says “But
now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which
the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is
no difference between Jew and Gentile,for all have sinned and fall short of the
glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace
through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
So it’s saying that before the law, no one can choose God, but after and apart from it, righteousness is for everyone who believes, and that there is NO DIFFERENCE between anyone.
So it’s saying that before the law, no one can choose God, but after and apart from it, righteousness is for everyone who believes, and that there is NO DIFFERENCE between anyone.
Alrighty! i've gone over all your statements. I will leave Round 5 blank unless you have questions you really want me to answer.
I would appreciate it if you could respond.
Pro
#10
I would appreciate it if you could respond.
very well! but to keep my word i"m only going to respond to questions.
Alrighty! i've gone over all your statements. I will leave Round 5 blank unless you have questions you really want me to answer.
Then replace "Calvinistic views" with "predestination views." Exactly, God doesn't respect any ONE person. He respects everyone EQUALLY. So how is stopping some people from believing and allowing others to believe respecting everyone equally?
He respects no one, the scripture says God is no respecter of persons.
I agree! So what’s God’s purpose for choosing some people and not others?
To glorify himself. To show himself lord even over evil that no one can glory.
You originally offered this as an example of God getting mad at people who did what he told them to do. The showed that that was not true. So again, why does God get mad at sinners for doing the only thing that they CAN do?
Our God is a jealous God, I hate to input new information at last round. His wrath is at sin, not sinners.
God: “I’m gonna make it so these people can’t be humble”Assyrians: “We got the victory by ourselves!”God: Now I will destroy them for doing the thing that I just made them do.How is that a loving God?
The question don't show lack of love, it shows God's justice, i think you would have done better to rephrase the question. "How can God do that if he is loving?"
Id say its a loving God that even allows them to live and didn't show the fullness of his wrath on them until later. Remember, we are enemies of God. and he still has mercy on us.
How is that a misreading? It literally says “in love.”
you didn't notice the Punctuation? In kjv it doesn't have a period, and that affects the context of the verse. ill give an example. I follow the Lord. In truth. vs I follow the lord in truth. Also you left out the choosing part of the verse and skipped to "In love" However the issue in reality is how you assert the logic of God must save everyone through love as verse 5 stresses salvation through his good will and pleasure, not love.
Alright, i've answered all questions. Thank you for the debate. if you wish to go over the other statements, let me know in the comments and i can go over them with you there.
Criterion
Con
Tie
Pro
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Why does neither side define Calvinism? Ugh! So my understanding after googling it, is that the events of the world are predestined - and those who are saved do not get to chose, its down to Gods implicit choice.
Con starts out by pointing out the major theological issues with Calvinism: specifically he points out that scriptures make repeated reference to everyone being redeemable.
Pros opening round primarily just explains what Calvinism is. It does not appear to lay out a specific justification for why this is the correct interpretation of the bible.
Cons rebuttal of the premise continues - pointing out it means that God would be directly involves in the creation of sin, and points out some additional scriptural quotes where the idea of free choice appears to refute the concept of predestination. Con drops a very intuitive example of children in a test that clearly explains why this logic is incorrect.
Reading through pros entire round 2, this appears to be, primarily an attempt to explain how a Calvinistic interpretation could be correct despite appearing to have a number of flaws. There are a lot of points to individually list here - but reading this round twice, there is no justification: any argument to explain why Pros position is correct, it appears mostly an assertion that he is correct, then using examples to explain contradictions.
This pattern is repeated into round 3, where the most relevant portions involve con pointing out the scriptural weakness of pros position, and why it seems to not make sense in terms of generalized understanding of the bible and what God wants for everyone.
Pros round 3 again, constitutes more of an attempt to explain how he can reconcile Calvinism with the Bible - but does not justify the claim itself.
This really continues as the pattern between round 4 and finally 5. There is a lot of back and forth on whether a Calvinistic explanation is contradicted by the bible, but still there doesn’t appear much in the way of outright justification from pro.
If the resolution was Calvinism is compatible with the Bible, I may have had a different vote - but as it is whether Calvinism is True - and pro did not provide a justification to this effect - arguments must be awarded to con.
All other points tied.
Criterion
Con
Tie
Pro
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
This voter is bewildered by the popularity of debating questions of faith in any forum of reason. Faith is defined by the absence of reason: if one could prove it logically it would not be faith. Logic is defined by the absence of faith, if it can't be proved it is not true.
Here, we are so far from reasoned discourse that neither participant bothers to state thesis or definition, precept or assumption. Neither side, for example, bothers to identify the Bible as their exclusive source, neither bothers to define Calvinism for readers. By R3, both sides essentially admit that they aren't interested in debating Calvinism but rather the notion of predestination as evidenced by the Bible.
Con's arguments are
Calvinism states that a pre-selected few achieve salvation
The Bible states that all men can be saved
Calvinism contradicts the Bible
Preselection refutes the value of conversion.
The Bible endorses evangelism.
Calvinism contradicts the Bible.
Predestination implies the incorruptibility of salvation.
The Bible says salvation can be forsaken
Calvinism contradicts the Bible.
Pro's R1 asserts that predestination is manifestly true.
"The scriptures show heavy evidence of God who predetermines...'
To accept predestination gives glory to God and makes humans afraid of their own humanity.
One can tell the people who are predestined to be saved by their claims of salvation, everyone else is unpredestined & therefore unsaved.
In R2, Con continues to support "all men can be saved" with biblical passages. Pro refutes by saying "some men can't be saved but its all up to God and essentially unknowable, even to the saved." Pro end R2 by stating that Pro is not a defender of Calvinism only predestination.
R3-R5 continues in much the same way.
Con has faith that a loving God includes any who choose him as the path to salvation. Pro has faith that God determines how men choose salvation and worship and deprives some of salvation for doing as forced. Pro denies any injustice to this: In the puppet box, we are all puppets alike, it's just that Geppetto has foreordained the fire for some puppets.
Both sides toss in many citations. The Bible both states and contradicts that all men can be saved. The Bible endorses and contradicts evangelism. The Bible both implies and contradicts the incorruptibility of salvation.
The problem with this increases as rounds progress: it is clear that this work's strange discontinuities, anachronistic morals and ambiguous language make the Bible pretty weak as a rational source of evidence. That this single source is continually shown to offer contradictory evidence regarding predestination gradually increases the proof that this source is at least sometimes, perhaps oftentimes, unreliable, certainly never published with the intention of representing a single point of view. So neither side is awarded sources because both sides relied exclusively on the same single and unreliable source. Likewise, because both sides' arguments relied exclusively on the same single and unreliable source I don't think it can be fairly said one side achieved any persuasive advantage over the other. If asked which cosmology sounds more appealing, this voter would fall into Con's camp. But my job is to assess who made a more convincing case regarding Calvinism, or really predestination as it turns out, and neither side achieved any warranted claim.
Tied all around.
The basis is calvinism true was an incorrect title for the debate. we actually tried to change it. Basically we tried to argue if predestination is supported by scripture or not.
*cry*
Some of those questions you asked me did put me through the ringer, There is a lot i don't know about God or how he does things. But i do know that sometimes God would speak to those who believe in him (elect/fore ordained) and tell them to do something and they would either do it or not do it, regardless of the will. I don't have an answer for that, other than the will is more subtle in some cases than in others.
"You’re referring to Romans 3:11. The same chapter in verses 21-24 says “But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
So it’s saying that before the law, no one can choose God, but after and apart from it, righteousness is for everyone who believes, and that there is NO DIFFERENCE between any."
you are misunderstanding the context of the verses. God is saying that righteousness is revealed in them that believe and that through belief all of them are justified freely by his grace through redemption that came by Christ Jesus. The difference that is significant here is hebrew and greek. Paul is emphasing that all have sinned and none have sought him through their own will, but those who were called and ordained, they have faith in Jesus christ regardless of nationality or sin. The law will no longer condemn those who didn't seek God as they find redemption through Jesus christ, because No one could follow the law in all points and be sinless. Therefore he took our sin and became sin for us that through him we have redemption.
"Your view: God predestined a select group of people to become Christians.
My view: God allows anyone who chooses to become a Christian.
Both have the word “become.” Where i put the become is the issue. Do we become sons before or after we are born? We are predestined to son ship.
John 7:17
Joshua 24:15
Romans 10:9-10
Mark 8:34
Joshua 24:15 makes no seperation of God's will imputed in the choices, therefore they were already predetermined. and again, they had no knowledge of predestination at that time.
Mark 8:34 "Whosoever will come after me," jesus is addressing those who have the will to take up the cross, this crucial to understanding that God imputes the will. Jesus is recognizing those who would come after him and he instructs them to deny himself, take up their cross and follow him, which they will do as they the will.
John 7:17 falls in same category, "If any man will do his will, He SHALL know of the doctrine," Recognition of the will of God on those he is speaking to and again informing them as they will do it.
romans 10:9-10 This is demonstrating how the will works, not showing choice of man. and again shows instruction. "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness:" thats where the will is imputed in man The bible says "Blessed is the man whom the lord imputes no sin" Or, has no will to sin.
I have missed one of your questions. "You’ve said that believers will go to God irresistibly, regardless of if they hear the Word or not. So again, why are we told to preach to people who will go to God regardless and to people who CAN’T go to God?"
I invite voters to withdraw a point for conduct because i missed this one.
I never said believers will go to God irresistibly, I said Gods grace is irresistible in that it draws them, preaching is one of the ways grace drawls people. We are told to preach that they might hear, even though they may have already denied creation's proof of God. Just because people may not come to God through recognition of creation, they may come to God through the revealing of his word.
"I’m aware that he was speaking to believers. You haven’t explained why the “us” excludes everyone else.
Leader: We are strong, and we are brave. Let’s take the victory.
Follwors: Yeah, let’s do it!
Does the “we” here mean that ONLY these people are strong and brave? Obviously not."
You provided an example that doesn't specify the context of what Us is. where as ephesians does.
"I’m not saying that, I’m saying that God offers salvation to everyone and he saves those who accept it."
And who can accept it unless God drawls them?
"You just said that God has a purpose for everything and he doesn’t do stuff just for his pleasure."
isaiah 41:21-23. The purpose and pleasure are together, God does nothing without a purpose or his pleasure. therefore i didn't see fit to emphasis the need for purpose as i established that God does everything with a purpose. Thats like saying i offered you a suit but i didn't talk about the tie, the tie is included in the suit.
"If God is controlling us and everything we do, that's not serving."
Sure it is, God accomplishes what he wants through us. Again, he isn't controlling us, he is inserting and refraining will through the spirit.
"In the predestination view, the "elect" have had some spiritual difference in them since the beginning of time. However, here it says that the change occurred on the road."
No, the predestination view never establishes a difference in any person, only the fore ordaining of God before they were born. A person who is fore ordained is no better and has no more advantages than a person who is not. God revealed himself to Paul on the road and there was a recognition from him that he is Lord, the one he persecuted even against his own pricks of the conscience. Which God does to everyone, he reveals or manifests or sends a will that people will consider and obey and follow him.
"There is no "elect"."
1 peter 1:1-2 matthew 24:22-24
"I never said that we deserve life. God says he works for our good, which goes beyond just giving us life. And lots of people who aren’t murderers and are innocent are killed everyday."
he does work for our Good, he keeps us from many things including sin. Im saying we never deserve life and im justified in saying that because of scripture. As to why some die and some don't God has a purpose through it and for it.
"I’m aware of our nature. However, that doesn’t mean that we can ONLY do evil. Non-believers do good all the time. This is why Jesus died to give us grace, so that we can CHOOSE salvation."
"There is none that do Good." We can only do evil unless God changes and introduces us to his nature and his goodness. Grace is to help us become more like him as we live our life and it keeps us from sin. Grace is unmerited favor, God has unmerited favor on everyone.
I'm unable to do that
Is it possible to change the title to better suit the context of this debate?
If you are able, would you change the title to something like "Is predestination false?" that way your position as instigator and my postition as contender makes more sense in the debate.
Ohhh ok, thank you so much
When you " " hit the quote button of the selected sentence. I copy and paste the sentence then hit quotes button.
How do you do that grey background thing?
Ill leave round 5 blank on my side, unless there are questions you want me to address.
a very good scripture is isaiah 41:21-23 God challenges Gods to consider the former things and declare their outcome.
genesis 50:18-20 i forgot the 50 on that one. - spelling grammar point.
Oh you meant three separate beings, yeah I don't support that either.
Really? I do support the Holy Trinity, just not predestination.
Ill go ahead and say i do not support a trinitarian view, as far as i know, the concept of predestination is what i agree with regarding calvinism. If we are going to debate their doctrines, then i will concede, i follow the bible specifically.