Instigator / Pro
15
1500
rating
16
debates
40.63%
won
Topic
#740
Trump is NOT Racist: Change my Mind
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
3
9
Better sources
6
6
Better legibility
3
3
Better conduct
3
3
After 3 votes and with 6 points ahead, the winner is...
Speedrace
Tags
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- Two months
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
21
1641
rating
63
debates
65.08%
won
Description
I will pretty much waive the first round and con will start the arguments off. BoP will be on con to prove that Trump IS racist, in present day.
Round 1
Pro
#1
This debate is concerned over whether President Donald Trump is racist or not. Con will have to present evidence in broadly recent years of racism, in which case if it is within recent years it would prove more likely than not Trump is a racist. Looking forward to the debate, con may start the arguments off.
Racism-- The idea that one is superior to another race, discrimination or prejudice against another race that would imply superiority to that race.
Con
#2
Trump referred to a Miss Universe who was Hispanic as "Miss Housekeeping."
Trump was talking to a Korean-American intelligence analyst, and he asked why she wasn't working on North Korea Policy.
Trump called Elizabeth Warren "Pocahontas."
Once, Trump pointed to an attendee at a rally and said “Oh, look at my African-American over here. Look at him.”
Trump has called Mexicans "rapists," "drug lords," and "criminals."
Trump tried to implement a ban on all Muslims entering the United States.
Trump has retweeted many white nationalist tweets.
When he was trying to get black voters on his side, Trump said “You’re living in poverty, your schools are no good, you have no jobs, 58 percent of your youth is unemployed. What the hell do you have to lose?”
Trump attacked NFL players who took a knee.
Trump implied that white supremacists were morally equivalent to the people resisting racism.
Trump said there are "some very fine people" among white supremacists.
Sources:
Round 2
Pro
#3
Thanks to con for responding, I have actually debunked claims in a previous debate on DDO with the same NY Times article. So here goes my rebuttals.
Trump referred to a Miss Universe who was Hispanic as "Miss Housekeeping."
I have looked at your cited article and have found no source they put to that claim. If you could cite your sources that would be great.
Trump was talking to a Korean-American intelligence analyst, and he asked why she wasn't working on North Korea Policy.
Again there is no source listed so I have no idea where this was derived on. If you could give separate sources for the ones where sources are not listed, that could give me a sense of context.
Trump called Elizabeth Warren "Pocahontas."
He did this as a joke because he thought she was lying about her heritage and refused to do a DNA test. He turned out to be right. Warren is 1/1024 native american. So, this is in invalid example of racism.
Once, Trump pointed to an attendee at a rally and said “Oh, look at my African-American over here. Look at him.”
This is completely great. You should look at the context and the actual video the NYT provided. Trump was applauding him saying "are you the greatest!" and tells a story about how great this black guy was because he slugged people who were wearing KKK hats. Watch the video. This actually is a perfect example of Trump not being racist.
Trump has called Mexicans "rapists," "drug lords," and "criminals."
Again, you need to look at context. His statement was "They're sending people that have a lot of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
This is true. There are many illegals smuggling drugs. They indisputably bring crime. Some are rapists. But this last part is key "Some are good people." He was not referring to all Mexicans as these things, he was referring to some ILLEGALS as these things.
Trump tried to implement a ban on all Muslims entering the United States.
Specifically, 5 countries in the middle east that had large Muslim and Islam populations. He didn't want radical Islamic terrorist attacks happening, which Islam is known for, and he was trying to fix the border problem as there were too many people coming through.
Trump has retweeted many white nationalist tweets.
Can you cite some of these tweets? Even if he did, it depends what the tweet was about. Could be completely unrelated to race.
When he was trying to get black voters on his side, Trump said “You’re living in poverty, your schools are no good, you have no jobs, 58 percent of your youth is unemployed. What the hell do you have to lose?”
He even cited a statistic. "What do you have to lose?" He is saying this because Obama, a black, hadn't fixed the problem, so Trump was saying to vote for him and you might just fix the problems. What is racist about this?
Trump attacked NFL players who took a knee.
Yes and what is your point? How is this racist? He attacked them because he believed they were disrespecting the flag, country, and all of the military people. Taking a knee had never had before, so it was quite a shock to Mr. President, as it was to many people.
Trump implied that white supremacists were morally equivalent to the people resisting racism.Trump said there are "some very fine people" among white supremacists.
Trump said “I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me." You had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists,” Trump said. “The press has treated them absolutely unfairly.” There were different sides of that protest, and Trump clarified by saying these comments. And the "implied" is very subjective and came from a left-wing source in Vox.
Some Proof Against the Racism of Trump
Lynne Parton, a former party planner for the Trump org. said "as a daughter of a man born in Birmingham, Alabama, that there is no way she would work for an individual who was racist." He has also hired black people throughout his life, he chose a black person, Omarosa, who also worked in the White House, to win the apprentice.
I ask voters...Why would a racist do that?
Sources
Con used left wing biased sources in an opinion article from the NY Times, as well as a very left-wing source in Vox. These biased sources can often de-contextualize the topic and make somewhat bias conclusions, or "implications" in their writing, some of which I have debunked in my arguments. I challenge pro to provide more unbiased sourcing in the future, as cite sources that the NYT or Vox does not.
Conclusion
I have proved that Trump is not racist, and have debunked many claims made by my opponent in reference to Trump's "racism."
Thanks for everybody's time. Back to you con.
Con
#4
I have looked at your cited article and have found no source they put to that claim. If you could cite your sources that would be great.
[1]
Again there is no source listed so I have no idea where this was derived on. If you could give separate sources for the ones where sources are not listed, that could give me a sense of context.
[2]
He did this as a joke because he thought she was lying about her heritage and refused to do a DNA test. He turned out to be right. Warren is 1/1024 native american. So, this is in invalid example of racism.
Actually, it is not. He made that statement before she took the DNA test. Even so, calling someone Pocahontas is a clear sign of racism.
Racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
This is completely great. You should look at the context and the actual video the NYT provided. Trump was applauding him saying "are you the greatest!" and tells a story about how great this black guy was because he slugged people who were wearing KKK hats. Watch the video. This actually is a perfect example of Trump not being racist.
That's incorrect. The person who he was talking about was not the person in the audience. Calling someone "my" African-American is clearly racist because it refers to slavery and the owning of black people.
Again, you need to look at context. His statement was "They're sending people that have a lot of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."This is true. There are many illegals smuggling drugs. They indisputably bring crime. Some are rapists. But this last part is key "Some are good people." He was not referring to all Mexicans as these things, he was referring to some ILLEGALS as these things.
There are 10.7 million unauthorized immigrants in the US. 105,140 of those are convicted criminals. [1] That's literally less than 1% of the unauthorized immigrants. In fact, some of those charges include very minor things like traffic violations, so the number of actually dangerous criminals is much less. So, because of that, this is clearly a racist and prejudiced statement.
Specifically, 5 countries in the middle east that had large Muslim and Islam populations. He didn't want radical Islamic terrorist attacks happening, which Islam is known for, and he was trying to fix the border problem as there were too many people coming through.
That is not a reason to ban all Muslims. In fact, white and right-wing supporters did almost twice as many terrorist attacks as Muslims between 2008 and 2016. [4] So we should ban white people now too? This is a clear racist and prejudiced action.
Can you cite some of these tweets? Even if he did, it depends what the tweet was about. Could be completely unrelated to race.
It doesn't matter if it is related to race or not. Retweeting anybody shows that you support what they stand for. They stand for white nationalism, and Trump retweeting them shows that he supports that as well.
Tweets:
- @whitegenocidetm – Trump retweeted a joke this user made about Jeb Bush
- @neilturner_ – This user also referenced white genocide in his profile. Trump retweeted this user 6 times.
- @keksec_org – This user was retweeted by the president 5 times. A list of their archived offensive tweets can be seen here
- Jayda Fransen – Fransen is a British user who is well known for making hoax videos of Muslims attacking whites.
[5]
He even cited a statistic. "What do you have to lose?" He is saying this because Obama, a black, hadn't fixed the problem, so Trump was saying to vote for him and you might just fix the problems. What is racist about this?
That statistic isn't even correct. Trump never said that he was going to fix that problem, you're interpolating that into the statement to save it. This is another prejudiced statement against black people.
Yes and what is your point? How is this racist? He attacked them because he believed they were disrespecting the flag, country, and all of the military people. Taking a knee had never had before, so it was quite a shock to Mr. President, as it was to many people.
So instead of making unfounded claims, he should have researched it more to see why they took a knee. But he chose to make a statement about them without knowing anything about the situation or why they were doing that. That's racist and prejudiced.
Trump said “I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me." You had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists,” Trump said. “The press has treated them absolutely unfairly.” There were different sides of that protest, and Trump clarified by saying these comments.
Where is his proof that there were many other people in that group besides neo-Nazis and white nationalists? And where has he condemned neo-Nazis? And even if he has, that has nothing to do with
And the "implied" is very subjective and came from a left-wing source in Vox.
It isn't even close to subjective. It is quite clear. He said that both sides - white nationalists and black protesters - were equally responsible for the violence that happened in Charlottesville. That's racist and a supporting comment for white nationalists.
Lynne Parton, a former party planner for the Trump org. said "as a daughter of a man born in Birmingham, Alabama, that there is no way she would work for an individual who was racist." He has also hired black people throughout his life, he chose a black person, Omarosa, who also worked in the White House, to win the apprentice.I ask voters...Why would a racist do that?
So if a murderer goes around and kills 100 people in cold blood, but he helps an old lady across the street, suddenly he's acquitted? Racists can hire black people, it's not difficult. NASA did it, just watch Hidden Figures.
Con used left wing biased sources in an opinion article from the NY Times, as well as a very left-wing source in Vox. These biased sources can often de-contextualize the topic and make somewhat bias conclusions, or "implications" in their writing, some of which I have debunked in my arguments.
I was not taking the opinion from those articles, and I was not appealing to authority. All I was doing was providing a source for the actions Trump committed. This has nothing to do with the bias of either of those sources.
I challenge pro to provide more unbiased sourcing in the future, as cite sources that the NYT or Vox does not.
Left-wing sources are the only sources that will report on Trump's racism. Right-wing sources will not.
Sources
Round 3
Pro
#5
Trump referred to a Miss Universe who was Hispanic as "Miss Housekeeping."
First off, this was an allegation, the title of your article said it. Could be true, could be not true. I generally stay away from allegations. Second, in your article it says Trump said "She's the worst we've ever had...She gained a massive amount of weight, and it was a real problem." How does this have to do with race? Just because she happens to be Hispanic that's what motivated the comments? His reasons were completely unrelated to race, he said it looked bad for them because she gained a lot of weight.
Trump was talking to a Korean-American intelligence analyst, and he asked why she wasn't working on North Korea Policy.
"Trump turned to an adviser in the room and seemed to suggest her ethnicity should determine her career path, asking why the "pretty Korean lady" isn't negotiating with North Korea on his administration's behalf, the officials said." So an allegation. These officials didn't want to reveal their identity and decided to remain anonymous, which in my opinion is a little suspicious. And does Trump mean that the pretty Korean lady should be working for Kim Jong Un, supporting his regime, or does he mean he thinks she should be working on North Korea policy, fixing the problem of North Korea?
Actually, it is not. He made that statement before she took the DNA test. Even so, calling someone Pocahontas is a clear sign of racism.
Trump said "Her mother says she has high cheekbones, that's her only evidence." This suggests that Trump obviously didn't believe Pocahontas about her "heritage" because she had no evidence to show for it. “Let's say I'm debating Pocahontas, right? I promise you I'll do this. I will take – you know those little kits they sell on television for $2. Learn your heritage,” Trump said. “And we will say, I will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test so that it shows you're an Indian.” Clearly this isn't racist because Trump offered her $1M. All of this has to do with the validity of her claims, not because he is racist.
That's incorrect. The person who he was talking about was not the person in the audience. Calling someone "my" African-American is clearly racist because it refers to slavery and the owning of black people.
Again, out of context. You just implied and jumped to the conclusion he was referring to owning black people and slavery, which is absurd. Trump said "Oh look at my African-American over here, look at him! Are you the greatest? Do you know what I'm talking about? (In reference to the story he was telling about)"
This is the exact opposite of racist. He is praising these black guys for punching people with KKK hats and saying how great they are. I think you know that this example is complete bogus.
There are 10.7 million unauthorized immigrants in the US. 105,140 of those are convicted criminals. [1] That's literally less than 1% of the unauthorized immigrants. In fact, some of those charges include very minor things like traffic violations, so the number of actually dangerous criminals is much less. So, because of that, this is clearly a racist and prejudiced statement.
In Texas in 2015, the rate of convictions per 100,000 illegal immigrants was 16 percent lower below that of native-born Americans. (https://www.cato.org/blog/murder-mollie-tibbetts-illegal-immigrant-crime-facts) It doesn't matter what percentage of illegals commit crimes, it matters they quantity and if they do it at all. When in comparison to natives, illegals are less likely to commit crime, but crime is crime regardless. 105,000 criminals is a lot, and just adds to the crime problem in our country. Like I said in my first argument, Trump is right to say some are criminals. You also left out the drug smuggling part, and it is inevitable that a big part of illegal immigration is cartels smuggling drugs into America. Trump is right to say some are smuggling drugs. There is nothing racist about saying illegal immigration adds unneeded crime into our country. Trump also said after that "But I speak to border guards and they tell us what we’re getting." He also said "It’s coming from all over South and Latin America." So this is not just remarked towards Mexicans.
The travel ban said "these countries remain deficient at this time with respect to their identity-management and information-sharing capabilities, protocols, and practices. In some cases, these countries also have a significant terrorist presence within their territory." Keep in mind this was only a temporary ban and the Supreme Court even upheld it. I don't think 5 people on the supreme court are racist.
@whitegenocidetm – Trump retweeted a joke this user made about Jeb Bush
- @neilturner_ – This user also referenced white genocide in his profile. Trump retweeted this user 6 times.
- @keksec_org – This user was retweeted by the president 5 times. A list of their archived offensive tweets can be seen here
- Jayda Fransen – Fransen is a British user who is well known for making hoax videos of Muslims attacking whites
First one- I saw that one it was actually hilarious because low-energy Jeb is doo-doo haha
Haven't heard about the other ones, so can you please cite the actual links to the tweets?
It doesn't matter if it is related to race or not. Retweeting anybody shows that you support what they stand for. They stand for white nationalism, and Trump retweeting them shows that he supports that as well.
If I retweet Planned Parenthood saying "remember to wash your hand before you eat!" it doesn't mean I support abortion and the killing of babies. If I retweet a socialist about something completely unrelated to socialism,that does not mean I support socialism.
That statistic isn't even correct. Trump never said that he was going to fix that problem, you're interpolating that into the statement to save it. This is another prejudiced statement against black people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-jasg-_E5M This is the context surrounding the statement. He was actually supporting Blacks and asking for their vote "if they want to see a better future." Also, "look at how much Black communities have suffered under democratic control." He was showing how he woukd be the guy for Blacks, and whether He was right about it or not, he wanted to give blacks a good life. So no, I'm not interpolating the statement, you are the one who didn't do enough research to find the right context.
So instead of making unfounded claims, he should have researched it more to see why they took a knee. But he chose to make a statement about them without knowing anything about the situation or why they were doing that. That's racist and prejudiced.
He knew they were doing it to protest perceived "racial injustice". He did not agree with this though, and like I said, he thought, and most Americans think, that it was disrespectful to the National Anthem, our whole country, the flag, pride for our country, and to all the military people fighting for our freedom. Many people believe that racial injustice is made up, and whether that is true or not, it is an opinion, and was Trump's opinion. To attack a different opinion and call it racist is troubling.
Where is his proof that there were many other people in that group besides neo-Nazis and white nationalists? And where has he condemned neo-Nazis? And even if he has, that has nothing to do with
There were people on both sides of the argument surrounding the Rob. E Lee statue, here is an article that explain it https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/03/21/trump_didnt_call_neo-nazis_fine_people_heres_proof_139815.html
In response to my argument in which I stated "Lynne Parton, a former party planner for the Trump org. said "as a daughter of a man born in Birmingham, Alabama, that there is no way she would work for an individual who was racist." He has also hired black people throughout his life, he chose a black person, Omarosa, who also worked in the White House, to win the apprentice," My opponent responded by saying
So if a murderer goes around and kills 100 people in cold blood, but he helps an old lady across the street, suddenly he's acquitted? Racists can hire black people, it's not difficult. NASA did it, just watch Hidden Figures.
The difference from a murderer is that they are convicted and it is proven. These "racist" claims are up for debate and I have debunked pretty much all of them. I state again "Lynne Parton, a former party planner for the Trump org. said "as a daughter of a man born in Birmingham, Alabama, that there is no way she would work for an individual who was racist." He also CHOSE a black person to win a million dollars out of all the contestants.
I was not taking the opinion from those articles, and I was not appealing to authority. All I was doing was providing a source for the actions Trump committed. This has nothing to do with the bias of either of those sources.
In some cases you took those words, assumptions, and perceived conclusions from the articles and cited it as evidence for racism.
Left-wing sources are the only sources that will report on Trump's racism. Right-wing sources will not.
Maybe find a central source than, like I suggested saying "unbiased."
Conclusion
I have again debunked my opponent's counter evidence and debunked con's claims that Trump is a racist.
Back over to you, con.
Con
#6
First off, this was an allegation, the title of your article said it. Could be true, could be not true. I generally stay away from allegations.
Unless you can provide reasonable evidence to cast away the testimony, it counts.
Second, in your article it says Trump said "She's the worst we've ever had...She gained a massive amount of weight, and it was a real problem." How does this have to do with race? Just because she happens to be Hispanic that's what motivated the comments? His reasons were completely unrelated to race, he said it looked bad for them because she gained a lot of weight.
I never mentioned the weight comment even once. I was specifically referring to when he called her "Miss Housekeeping."
"Trump turned to an adviser in the room and seemed to suggest her ethnicity should determine her career path, asking why the "pretty Korean lady" isn't negotiating with North Korea on his administration's behalf, the officials said." So an allegation.
Can you give reasonable evidence to doubt the testimony?
These officials didn't want to reveal their identity and decided to remain anonymous, which in my opinion is a little suspicious.
That's because they didn't want to be targeted. This happens a lot and it is not surprising when it does.
And does Trump mean that the pretty Korean lady should be working for Kim Jong Un, supporting his regime, or does he mean he thinks she should be working on North Korea policy, fixing the problem of North Korea?
Policy.
Trump said "Her mother says she has high cheekbones, that's her only evidence." This suggests that Trump obviously didn't believe Pocahontas about her "heritage" because she had no evidence to show for it.
His unbelief in her heritage is no reason to start calling her "Pocahontas."
“Let's say I'm debating Pocahontas, right? I promise you I'll do this. I will take – you know those little kits they sell on television for $2. Learn your heritage,” Trump said. “And we will say, I will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test so that it shows you're an Indian.” Clearly this isn't racist because Trump offered her $1M. All of this has to do with the validity of her claims, not because he is racist.
First of all, Trump lied and never donated the $1 million dollars. However, that's irrelevant. Secondly, it is racist because identifying someone of a certain group as "one person" from that group is racist. That's like calling every black woman "Harriet Tubman."
Again, out of context. You just implied and jumped to the conclusion he was referring to owning black people and slavery, which is absurd. Trump said "Oh look at my African-American over here, look at him! Are you the greatest? Do you know what I'm talking about? (In reference to the story he was telling about)"This is the exact opposite of racist. He is praising these black guys for punching people with KKK hats and saying how great they are. I think you know that this example is complete bogus.
As I said, the man in the audience was not the man in the story he told. And again, saying "my" to black people has always had that connotation, and what's more, he's again lumping the man into the group of "African-Americans" instead of referring to him as an individual.
In Texas in 2015, the rate of convictions per 100,000 illegal immigrants was 16 percent lower below that of native-born Americans.
This proves my point! Thanks!
It doesn't matter what percentage of illegals commit crimes, it matters they quantity and if they do it at all.
The percentage matters a lot. If you're giving money out to homeless people and there's a 1% chance that they'll spend it on drugs instead of food or something, does that mean you shouldn't give out money altogether? No! That's absurd. However, if it was a 99% chance, then that would be a good decision.
When in comparison to natives, illegals are less likely to commit crime, but crime is crime regardless. 105,000 criminals is a lot, and just adds to the crime problem in our country. Like I said in my first argument, Trump is right to say some are criminals.
If crime is crime regardless, why isn't Trump trying to stop babies from being born? As you showed just now, natives commit more crimes than immigrants. Why then is it ok for Trump to ignore the bigger source of crime and focus on the smaller one? The answer is it isn't.
My point is that he's treating the immigrants differently. That's racism.
You also left out the drug smuggling part, and it is inevitable that a big part of illegal immigration is cartels smuggling drugs into America. Trump is right to say some are smuggling drugs. There is nothing racist about saying illegal immigration adds unneeded crime into our country.
80% of drug smugglers are American citizens. [1] That's the first strike. Most drugs enter through legal ports of entry, so stopping immigration won't stop drugs. [2] That's the second strike. Again, Trump doesn't try to stop birth, which is where MORE crime comes from, as you said. That's discrimination, which is racist. Strike three, he's out!
Trump also said after that "But I speak to border guards and they tell us what we’re getting." He also said "It’s coming from all over South and Latin America." So this is not just remarked towards Mexicans.
That doesn't matter. They're non-white.
The travel ban said "these countries remain deficient at this time with respect to their identity-management and information-sharing capabilities, protocols, and practices. In some cases, these countries also have a significant terrorist presence within their territory." Keep in mind this was only a temporary ban and the Supreme Court even upheld it. I don't think 5 people on the supreme court are racist.
First of all, that has nothing to do with Trump. Second of all, where's your source for that?
Haven't heard about the other ones, so can you please cite the actual links to the tweets?
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]
Respectively.
If I retweet Planned Parenthood saying "remember to wash your hand before you eat!" it doesn't mean I support abortion and the killing of babies. If I retweet a socialist about something completely unrelated to socialism,that does not mean I support socialism.
It does, actually. That's why you must watch who you follow. However, even if what you say is true, Trump has done it more than 10 times. If it was once or twice, sure, we might be able to let that slide, but more than 10 times shows a clear alliance between the values of the two parties. You don't affiliate with those who directly contrast you.
This is the context surrounding the statement. He was actually supporting Blacks and asking for their vote "if they want to see a better future." Also, "look at how much Black communities have suffered under democratic control." He was showing how he woukd be the guy for Blacks, and whether He was right about it or not, he wanted to give blacks a good life.
He was being prejudiced by saying how the effects he described affected all black people. That's racist to assume someone's economic or social position based on their race.
So no, I'm not interpolating the statement, you are the one who didn't do enough research to find the right context.
If you have to "find the right context," you're doing something wrong. There is no "right context," there is the context, just one.
He knew they were doing it to protest perceived "racial injustice". He did not agree with this though, and like I said, he thought, and most Americans think, that it was disrespectful to the National Anthem, our whole country, the flag, pride for our country, and to all the military people fighting for our freedom. Many people believe that racial injustice is made up, and whether that is true or not, it is an opinion, and was Trump's opinion. To attack a different opinion and call it racist is troubling.
Now you're using argumentum ad populum. Just because a view is popular doesn't mean it isn't racist. It could be my opinion that your face is ugly because you were born X race. That's my opinion, so does that mean I'm not being racist? No, I'm still being racist even though it's my opinion. Likewise, Trump's opinion can just as easily be racist.
There were people on both sides of the argument surrounding the Rob. E Lee statue, here is an article that explain
He said among the white supremacists, not among the people surrounding the statue. That's two completely different groups.
In response to my argument in which I stated "Lynne Parton, a former party planner for the Trump org. said "as a daughter of a man born in Birmingham, Alabama, that there is no way she would work for an individual who was racist." He has also hired black people throughout his life, he chose a black person, Omarosa, who also worked in the White House, to win the apprentice,"
So she could either be getting paid off or she's just ignorant. Also, being racist doesn't mean that you can never treat the object of your racism nice.
The difference from a murderer is that they are convicted and it is proven. These "racist" claims are up for debate and I have debunked pretty much all of them.
You completely missed the point of that analogy. My point is that doing one good deed towards black people doesn't automatically excuse someone from being racist.
He also CHOSE a black person to win a million dollars out of all the contestants.
That's not proof of anything. Racists don't necessarily have to be racist every single second of their lives.
In some cases you took those words, assumptions, and perceived conclusions from the articles and cited it as evidence for racism.
That is incorrect. All that I was doing was citing sources that proved that the actions I said actually happened.
Maybe find a central source than, like I suggested saying "unbiased."
That's completely unnecessary. I'm not taking an opinion from them, I'm taking the proof of the claims that I'm making.
Sources:
Round 4
Pro
#7
Miss Housekeeping
This particular one was an allegation and can not be proven. She also won in 1996, which is over 23 years ago. I did say fairly recent evidence and that I would be pretty lenient, but this would not measure up to that. If the allegations are true, it seemed like Trump disliked her a lot, and all together this would not be a fair and clear example of how Trump overall thinks Whites are better than Venezuelan's, because it was directed at one person.
Pretty Korean Lady
Allegations are not provable. If you yourself say that he was directing it at the girl to fix north Korea's policy, what is racist to suggest the radical regime of N.K. should be fixed? How does this prove Trump thinks whites are superior to Korean's?
His unbelief in her heritage is no reason to start calling her "Pocahontas."First of all, Trump lied and never donated the $1 million dollars. However, that's irrelevant. Secondly, it is racist because identifying someone of a certain group as "one person" from that group is racist. That's like calling every black woman "Harriet Tubman."
Trump never lied because the tests proved she wasn't a Native American, and Trump made the condition it would be in debate. The difference here is Trump could make fun of Pocahontas because she's not Indian, so therefore Pocahontas is not in that "group" because she is a fake Indian.
As I said, the man in the audience was not the man in the story he told. And again, saying "my" to black people has always had that connotation, and what's more, he's again lumping the man into the group of "African-Americans" instead of referring to him as an individual.
I understand he wasn't the person in the story. Trump asked him if he knew what he was talking about. The context just does not back you up, I'm sorry. Again, he called him "great" and was referencing a story in which he praised some black guys for slugging KKK members. Everything about that context is anti-racist and has no weight to back up your claim that a pronoun my" could be racist. He described the man as black because he didn't know his name or anything, and also because he was making a point he was black in reference to the story he was telling. It would be the same as saying "look at my supporter" but instead he made it a point to announce he was black. Whether it has that connotation or not, Trump was not using it in such a manner, and no context of the situation backs your claim up.
If crime is crime regardless, why isn't Trump trying to stop babies from being born? As you showed just now, natives commit more crimes than immigrants. Why then is it ok for Trump to ignore the bigger source of crime and focus on the smaller one? The answer is it isn't.My point is that he's treating the immigrants differently. That's racism.
Are you referencing abortion? I'm so confused when you brought that up. While the bigger source of crime is in the U.S., Trump does not have control over some states and cities laws. He did pass a bi-partisan Criminal Justice Reform. However, Trump has a lot of control over building a wall and stopping illegal immigrants from coming. Trump is trying to stop crime, no matter what the percentage. Treating illegal immigrants differently is not racist because they are illegal. He is not treating them differently from the criminal aspect, however, as he didn't compare or say illegal crime more than crime in our country. Solutions to smaller problems are still good if it reduces crime.
80% of drug smugglers are American citizens. [1] That's the first strike. Most drugs enter through legal ports of entry, so stopping immigration won't stop drugs. [2] That's the second strike. Again, Trump doesn't try to stop birth, which is where MORE crime comes from, as you said. That's discrimination, which is racist.
First, we are not talking about American citizens. Second, he just wants the wall in addition to all the technology and securing ports of entry and fixing the problem there as well. It will stop the other percentage of drugs, just because something is a minority percentage does not mean it can be stopped. Those stats also do not cover the many smugglers that have not been caught due to the open borders. Third, I have no idea what birth or babies has to do with any of this. That's three strikes, you're out!
Strike three, he's out!
I don't know why you thought this would be clever 😂
[In reference to travel ban] First of all, that has nothing to do with Trump. Second of all, where's your source for that?
What do you mean. Trump did the travel ban. If 5 people on the supreme court upheld the ban, are they also racist? It's a serious question because they are backing up Trump's order, so please don't avoid it. Here is my source- https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39044403
**Retweets**
Some of those accounts have been banned so I do not know what they have said. For the retweet of the Muslim guy, he could have been tweeting it to expose or fight back against Islamophobia. Plus, most of these you would have no idea they are White Supremacists by their names. I assume Trump does not look at all their tweets before retweeting it, but instead retweeting stuff that appeals to him, like the Jeb Bush one. It is not provable he is racist by these, especially because you use your opinion in this quote
[He quoted me saying "If I retweet Planned Parenthood saying "remember to wash your hand before you eat!" it doesn't mean I support abortion and the killing of babies. If I retweet a socialist about something completely unrelated to socialism,that does not mean I support socialism."]Speedrace then says in response "It does, actually. That's why you must watch who you follow. However, even if what you say is true, Trump has done it more than 10 times. If it was once or twice, sure, we might be able to let that slide, but more than 10 times shows a clear alliance between the values of the two parties. You don't affiliate with those who directly contrast you."
So my opponent is very bias in this statement, saying that if you repeat something said by someone that has nothing to do with their beliefs, it actually does mean you align with their beliefs. This is confirmation bias used by my opponent on Trump. So by my opponent's logic, since he believes Trump is racist, and I repeat something Trump says or in this case retweet it(which I have done) then I am a racist?! That does not add up though, because I am strictly not racist by a man of morality and Christianity. This argument by my opponent is flawed, and this opinion based matter on my opponent's side does not prove Trump is racist because he is implementing his own opinion into the matter(confirmation bias). You also have not shown 10 tweets.
He was being prejudiced by saying how the effects he described affected all black people. That's racist to assume someone's economic or social position based on their race.
He never said all black people. He was referring to some black communities in general which have statistically suffered under Democratic control. Whether what he said about the economic status of some black communities is true or not, it is an opinion that many people share, and does not mean you think you are superior to blacks as people. Once again by the nature of the context behind this statement, it does not prove Trump is racist. Why would he offer a better future for blacks if he is racist, and why is the economy at record highs, unemployment rates, etc. for blacks?
[In reference to the kneeling in NFL] Now you're using argumentum ad populum. Just because a view is popular doesn't mean it isn't racist. It could be my opinion that your face is ugly because you were born X race. That's my opinion, so does that mean I'm not being racist? No, I'm still being racist even though it's my opinion. Likewise, Trump's opinion can just as easily be racist.
You did not respond to the substance of what I said, and your opinion on this is very subjective. Like I said, people didn't like they protested during the anthem, when they could have done it any other time where people didn't think it was disrespectful. It has to do with the anthem and disrespecting multiple things. I think it is disrespectful, so therefore you are calling me racist, when I am not. It is a political issue that has both sides to it, not just an opinion that resorts to the race card.
[Char., VA statue protest incident] He said among the white supremacists, not among the people surrounding the statue. That's two completely different groups.
You didn't read my source I cited (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/03/21/trump_didnt_call_neo-nazis_fine_people_heres_proof_139815.html). Specifically in the same press conference and answer, Trump said "Excuse me, they didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me, I saw the same pictures you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.” In a follow up question he said “I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.” In a response directly after the protests happened, Trump said “Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans.” Further more proof he is not racist. Again, my opponent fails to have context of the situation.
So she could either be getting paid off or she's just ignorant. Also, being racist doesn't mean that you can never treat the object of your racism nice.
Engaging with conspiracies that she is paid off is ridiculous and completely unprovable, as well as the throw-away attack of "she's just ignorant." Both are anti-intellectual.
You completely missed the point of that analogy. My point is that doing one good deed towards black people doesn't automatically excuse someone from being racist.
You are actually missing my point, which is, you are assuming Trump is racist in this quote, but all of these racist claims you have made against Trump are debatable and not clear and cut racism.
That's not proof of anything. Racists don't necessarily have to be racist every single second of their lives.
If you are genuinely a White Supremacist and racist against a bunch of races, it wouldn't make sense to hand an extremely large sum of one million dollars to a race you discriminate against.
Conclusion
I have proven that Trump is not a racist, and proven that the opponent often does not have context or objective facts on his side.
My opponent has also indirectly called me racist on multiple occasions(Go to NFL kneeling, Tweeting), which is poor conduct.
Back to con for his final arguments and rebuttals.
Con
#8
This particular one was an allegation and can not be proven.
As I said, my opponent must provide reasonable evidence to dismiss the claims. He has not, so there is no reason to dismiss the claims.
She also won in 1996, which is over 23 years ago. I did say fairly recent evidence and that I would be pretty lenient, but this would not measure up to that.
That's incorrect. My opponent specifically said "broadly recent years." This fits perfectly fine into that.
If the allegations are true, it seemed like Trump disliked her a lot, and all together this would not be a fair and clear example of how Trump overall thinks Whites are better than Venezuelan's, because it was directed at one person.
Yes, it is. Trump made comments against her that are associated with the social stigma of Hispanics being servants and housekeepers, and this is clearly a slur against her.
Allegations are not provable.
Again, you've given no reason not to believe the testimonies.
If you yourself say that he was directing it at the girl to fix north Korea's policy, what is racist to suggest the radical regime of N.K. should be fixed? How does this prove Trump thinks whites are superior to Korean's?
He was saying that North Koreans can only be useful for North Korean related things, unlike white's who can be useful for a range of things. That's racist.
Trump never lied because the tests proved she wasn't a Native American, and Trump made the condition it would be in debate.
As I said, him giving the million dollars or not is irrelevant.
The difference here is Trump could make fun of Pocahontas because she's not Indian, so therefore Pocahontas is not in that "group" because she is a fake Indian.
First of all, you just admitted that calling a Native American "Pocahontas" is racist. Secondly, he made that joke BEFORE she took the DNA test, so as you just admitted, he was being racist.
I understand he wasn't the person in the story. Trump asked him if he knew what he was talking about. The context just does not back you up, I'm sorry. Again, he called him "great" and was referencing a story in which he praised some black guys for slugging KKK members. Everything about that context is anti-racist and has no weight to back up your claim that a pronoun my" could be racist. He described the man as black because he didn't know his name or anything, and also because he was making a point he was black in reference to the story he was telling. It would be the same as saying "look at my supporter" but instead he made it a point to announce he was black. Whether it has that connotation or not, Trump was not using it in such a manner, and no context of the situation backs your claim up.
First of all, "my" has and has always had that connotation. Secondly, the man he spoke to received loads of hate and negative comments because of this. [1] Again, that's racist.
Are you referencing abortion? I'm so confused when you brought that up.
No, I'm referencing the native populations. Why is it ok for Trump to ignore the criminals being born in our own country but to stop an even SMALLER amount of criminals from elsewhere? That's racist.
While the bigger source of crime is in the U.S., Trump does not have control over some states and cities laws.
He doesn't have control over the border wall, yet he still chooses to fight for that instead of more pressing issues.
He did pass a bi-partisan Criminal Justice Reform.
So why didn't he do a similar thing for immigrants instead of deporting them? That's racism right there.
However, Trump has a lot of control over building a wall and stopping illegal immigrants from coming. Trump is trying to stop crime, no matter what the percentage. Treating illegal immigrants differently is not racist because they are illegal. He is not treating them differently from the criminal aspect, however, as he didn't compare or say illegal crime more than crime in our country. Solutions to smaller problems are still good if it reduces crime.
So spending $7 billion on a very small amount of crime is better than investing that money to stop the bigger source of crime? Again, that's racist. He's using different policies for immigrants and their SMALLER amount of crime than he is for natives and their BIGGER amount of crime.
First, we are not talking about American citizens.
He focuses on immigrants and accusing them of their SMALLER amount of crimes and treats the Americans who commit MORE of the SAME crime differently. That's racist.
Second, he just wants the wall in addition to all the technology and securing ports of entry and fixing the problem there as well. It will stop the other percentage of drugs, just because something is a minority percentage does not mean it can be stopped. Those stats also do not cover the many smugglers that have not been caught due to the open borders.
Again, he's ignoring the bigger problem of American criminals, which is bigger than this one, and focusing on these people even though he has a BIGGER problem at hand. That's racist.
Third, I have no idea what birth or babies has to do with any of this. That's three strikes, you're out!
He's ignoring the source of crime from natives to focus on the one from immigrants, which is smaller. That's racist.
I don't know why you thought this would be clever 😂
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
What do you mean. Trump did the travel ban. If 5 people on the supreme court upheld the ban, are they also racist? It's a serious question because they are backing up Trump's order, so please don't avoid it.
Oh, I was confused because you didn't quote me, so I had no idea why you were randomly bringing up the travel ban.
You're making an appeal to authority here. Just because it was upheld by the Supreme Court doesn't mean it was racist. The countries that were targeted are all 90%-99% Muslim. That's clearly racist, given that MORE terrorist attacks are carried out by Americans.
Some of those accounts have been banned so I do not know what they have said. For the retweet of the Muslim guy, he could have been tweeting it to expose or fight back against Islamophobia.
"Could have" is not an argument. Now you're just making random excuses.
Plus, most of these you would have no idea they are White Supremacists by their names.
Firstly, they were well-known to be white supremacists. Secondly, their bios on Twitter clearly showed how they were white supremacists. Even if Trump didn't know the FIRST time, he would've been told. However, he retweeted many of them MULTIPLE times in a row.
I assume Trump does not look at all their tweets before retweeting it, but instead retweeting stuff that appeals to him, like the Jeb Bush one.
An assumption is a horrible argument. What are you basing this assumption off of? Why should we believe that this assumption is valid?
It is not provable he is racist by these, especially because you use your opinion in this quote
Yes, it most certainly is. He clearly aligns with their values.
So my opponent is very bias in this statement, saying that if you repeat something said by someone that has nothing to do with their beliefs, it actually does mean you align with their beliefs. This is confirmation bias used by my opponent on Trump. So by my opponent's logic, since he believes Trump is racist, and I repeat something Trump says or in this case retweet it(which I have done) then I am a racist?!
I never said that. What I said was that retweeting someone MULTIPLE times who has clear defined beliefs is aligning with those beliefs. You retweeting Trump shows that you align with his political and Republican beliefs.
That does not add up though, because I am strictly not racist by a man of morality and Christianity.
First of all, there are plenty of moral and Christian men who are racist (I'm not saying you are).
This argument by my opponent is flawed, and this opinion based matter on my opponent's side does not prove Trump is racist because he is implementing his own opinion into the matter(confirmation bias). You also have not shown 10 tweets.
I did show 10 tweets. The links I have contained them. In fact, I believe they contained even more than just 10 tweets.
He never said all black people.
He said "you." In the vernacular language, this means either one person or everyone in a particular group. He obviously wasn't talking to just one person, so this must mean ALL black people. Had he said "some" black people, it would have been fine, but he did not.
He was referring to some black communities in general which have statistically suffered under Democratic control.
Where's your proof of these statistics?
Whether what he said about the economic status of some black communities is true or not, it is an opinion that many people share, and does not mean you think you are superior to blacks as people. Once again by the nature of the context behind this statement, it does not prove Trump is racist. Why would he offer a better future for blacks if he is racist, and why is the economy at record highs, unemployment rates, etc. for blacks?
It is racist, because assuming someone's social status is low because of their skin color is racist. He would offer a better future for them because he wanted their vote. Where's your proof fo these record highs and unemployment rates that you claim for black people?
You did not respond to the substance of what I said, and your opinion on this is very subjective. Like I said, people didn't like they protested during the anthem, when they could have done it any other time where people didn't think it was disrespectful. It has to do with the anthem and disrespecting multiple things. I think it is disrespectful, so therefore you are calling me racist, when I am not. It is a political issue that has both sides to it, not just an opinion that resorts to the race card.
It's not about whether it's disrespectful or not; it's the fact that Trump attacked them. That's racist.
You didn't read my source I cited (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/03/21/trump_didnt_call_neo-nazis_fine_people_heres_proof_139815.html). Specifically in the same press conference and answer, Trump said "Excuse me, they didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me, I saw the same pictures you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.” In a follow up question he said “I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.” In a response directly after the protests happened, Trump said “Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans.” Further more proof he is not racist. Again, my opponent fails to have context of the situation.
The quote literally says "But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides." On BOTH sides. That's calling white supremacists "fine people."
Engaging with conspiracies that she is paid off is ridiculous and completely unprovable, as well as the throw-away attack of "she's just ignorant." Both are anti-intellectual.4
I was not engaging in conspiracies. I was simply offering a possible solution.
You are actually missing my point, which is, you are assuming Trump is racist in this quote, but all of these racist claims you have made against Trump are debatable and not clear and cut racism.
What I said here has nothing to do with a quote. I was saying that Trump can be nice to black people sometimes and still be racist.
If you are genuinely a White Supremacist and racist against a bunch of races, it wouldn't make sense to hand an extremely large sum of one million dollars to a race you discriminate against.
Racism doesn't make sense, yet it happens. Being racist doesn't mean that you have to do racist things 24/7.
Sources:
Round 5
Pro
#9
As I said, my opponent must provide reasonable evidence to dismiss the claims. He has not, so there is no reason to dismiss the claims.[Mrs. Housekeeping]That's incorrect. My opponent specifically said "broadly recent years." This fits perfectly fine into that.
Trump never addressed this allegation, only the "Mrs. piggy" one. I'm sorry, but the BoP isn't to prove the allegation is not true, the BoP is to prove the allegation is true. Since it can't be proved, this is not clear and cut evidence Trump is racist.
23 years ago is not broadly recent. I even said in the comments "Lets say 10 years ago, but I won't be too picky." Speedrace commented to me after I posted that comment. This is 2x that amount of years. Since this is extremely borderline, and is an allegation directed towards one person, more evidence is required to prove Trump is racist. All of my opponent's other claims of Trump being racist are perfectly fine and in broadly recent years, so let's examine those.
Again, you've given no reason not to believe the testimonies.
Again, you have to prove allegations, not me proving they are not true. If an allegation of a crime is made by someone towards me, it is there job to prove that it is true, not mine to prove it didn't happen.
He was saying that North Koreans can only be useful for North Korean related things, unlike white's who can be useful for a range of things. That's racist.
He never said that, you are paraphrasing. This was an allegation and not provable. There is nothing racist about saying she should try and fix N.K.'s radical regime. Substantial evidence that can be proven should be taken into account, not allegations that Trump hasn't responded to.
First of all, you just admitted that calling a Native American "Pocahontas" is racist. Secondly, he made that joke BEFORE she took the DNA test, so as you just admitted, he was being racist.
First, depends on what tone and context you use it in. Second, as I said before, Trump called her Pocahontas because he was making fun of her not being able to prove she was, and that her only evidence is she has "high cheekbones." Look at the source I quoted before. She refused to take a DNA test originally, so Trump, like many others, thought she was obviously lying when she looks no where near Indian.
Trump had a white house event honoring native American veterans (http://time.com/5038410/donald-trump-elizabeth-warren-pocahontas-2/), which is anti-racist, and made the same Pocahontas claim in reference to her lying about her heritage. It was the lack of evidence and alleged lying that Trump mocked here. I never admitted Trump was racist. Nice spin.
First of all, "my" has and has always had that connotation. Secondly, the man he spoke to received loads of hate and negative comments because of this. [1] Again, that's racist.
Once again, my opponent did not respond to the context around that in which I said " Trump asked him if he knew what he was talking about. The context just does not back you up, I'm sorry. Again, he called him "great" and was referencing a story in which he praised some black guys for slugging KKK members. Everything about that context is anti-racist and has no weight to back up your claim that a pronoun my" could be racist. He described the man as black because he didn't know his name or anything, and also because he was making a point he was black in reference to the story he was telling. It would be the same as saying "look at my supporter" but instead he made it a point to announce he was black. Whether it has that connotation or not, Trump was not using it in such a manner, and no context of the situation backs your claim up." along with other context the previous rounds. Secondly, that has little to do with the matter. He received hate because people thought he was a Trump supporter, which has nothing to do with the comments. The context is the complete opposite of my opponent's claims. He provides also no proof that "my" has that connotation, especially when he is called the "greatest," and tells a story about how great blacks are.
I'm referencing the native populations. Why is it ok for Trump to ignore the criminals being born in our own country but to stop an even SMALLER amount of criminals from elsewhere? That's racist.
How do we know that they are criminals when they are born? This comment does not make any sense and my opponent does not elaborate on it.
He doesn't have control over the border wall, yet he still chooses to fight for that instead of more pressing issues.
He had control to try and persuade congress, and he has control to conduct a National Emergency, which he already has done.
So why didn't he do a similar thing for immigrants instead of deporting them? That's racism right there.
Either they were criminals or he deported some because they were ILLEGAL. They broke the law and did not come in the right way. It has to do with our laws in place that you have to come legally and not cut the line, not some bogus racism claim.
So spending $7 billion on a very small amount of crime is better than investing that money to stop the bigger source of crime? Again, that's racist. He's using different policies for immigrants and their SMALLER amount of crime than he is for natives and their BIGGER amount of crime.
You can't fully stop crime from natives, as it is unpredictable. However, you can stop crime over the immigration issue by knowing who is coming in that they are no criminals, and also by building a wall you can stop drug smuggling and human trafficking, a huge crisis. You can reduce a huge amount of crime by building a wall so criminals aren't able to walk through undetected, but it is hard to reduce crime in the U.S. because it is unpredictable, and when people do commit crimes, they are punished.
He focuses on immigrants and accusing them of their SMALLER amount of crimes and treats the Americans who commit MORE of the SAME crime differently. That's racist.
Every immigrant who comes illegally is by default committing a crime without the approval of an immigration officer. He focuses on illegal immigration because it is against federal law to enter illegally, and he is simply trying to enforce those laws.
You're making an appeal to authority here. Just because it was upheld by the Supreme Court doesn't mean it was racist. The countries that were targeted are all 90%-99% Muslim. That's clearly racist, given that MORE terrorist attacks are carried out by Americans.
So my opponent is saying 5 supreme court judges are racist. Glad to know. Second, like I quoted before, which my opponent didn't respond to, the travel ban statement said "these countries remain deficient at this time with respect to their identity-management and information-sharing capabilities, protocols, and practices. In some cases, these countries also have a significant terrorist presence within their territory." It was to prevent Islamic terrorism, and while more terrorist attacks are by whites, you can't stop those as effectively as you can at the border, by screening them BEFORE they become U.S. citizens. Trump has said it is because of the radical Islamic attacks, not just because he feels like banning ordinary Muslims, whether he was aware of the statistics or not.
Tweets
"Could have" is not an argument. Now you're just making random excuses.
It is not an excuse, but a probable explanation of it.
Firstly, they were well-known to be white supremacists. Secondly, their bios on Twitter clearly showed how they were white supremacists. Even if Trump didn't know the FIRST time, he would've been told. However, he retweeted many of them MULTIPLE times in a row.
I didn't know white supremacists were well known. I'm pretty sure they are no where near celebrities. Second, you can't even see their bios because most of the accounts are suspended. Even so, you are assuming people look at everyone's bios before they retweet them.
"Would have" is not an argument. Now your just making random excuses.
An assumption is a horrible argument. What are you basing this assumption off of? Why should we believe that this assumption is valid?
Why should we believe he does look at all their tweets before he posts? Why should I believe that assumption is valid, on top of the many allegations you assume are valid that you noted previously in the debate about "Mrs. Housekeeping and pretty Korean lady?"
I never said that. What I said was that retweeting someone MULTIPLE times who has clear defined beliefs is aligning with those beliefs. You retweeting Trump shows that you align with his political and Republican beliefs.
You did say that. Since you believe Trump is clearly racist, and I have retweeted Trump multiple times, is you saying I'm a racist because because I have retweeted someone multiple times who is "clearly racist." Your logic, not mine.
He said "you." In the vernacular language, this means either one person or everyone in a particular group. He obviously wasn't talking to just one person, so this must mean ALL black people. Had he said "some" black people, it would have been fine, but he did not.
You are arguing over what pronouns mean. He said "Look how much african-american communities have suffered under democratic control. To THOSE I say, what do you have to lose?" Directly before the "you" he said "those", which is referring to some of the communities that have suffered. Again, Speedrace fails to look at the context.
It is racist, because assuming someone's social status is low because of their skin color is racist. He would offer a better future for them because he wanted their vote. Where's your proof for these record highs and unemployment rates that you claim for black people?
He never assumed that, he was arguing against democratic policies which made some black communities worse. He actually said "Hillary thinks of blacks only as votes, not as human beings worthy of a better future." In May and November of 2018, the unemployment rate hit 5.9%, the lowest ever among blacks.(https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/07/black-unemployment-rate-falls-to-5point9percent-ties-record-low-hit-this-year.html)
It's not about whether it's disrespectful or not; it's the fact that Trump attacked them. That's racist.[NFL kneeling]
So if you attack someone just because they are black it is suddenly racist?? Trump has attacks people of all different kinds, it is because of the substance which they are doing, not because of their race and identity politics which Liberals like to play. Trump recently attacked Rob Mueller because of how he wrote the report, is he also racist against whites just because Mueller is white? This is a poor argument.
The quote literally says "But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides." On BOTH sides. That's calling white supremacists "fine people."This was in response to my previous rebuttal, "You didn't read my source I cited (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/03/21/trump_didnt_call_neo-nazis_fine_people_heres_proof_139815.html). Specifically in the same press conference and answer, Trump said "Excuse me, they didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me, I saw the same pictures you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.” In a follow up question he said “I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.” In a response directly after the protests happened, Trump said “Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans.” Further more proof he is not racist. Again, my opponent fails to have context of the situation."
Can my opponent read the quotes he said? In the same exact comment, he says "You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.” He specifically says this as one of the "sides" in the group. He was clearly referring to the confederate monument debate. Directly after in a clarification he said specifically “I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.” My opponent is having a hard time comprehending this, along with the other comment from Trump after the incident “Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans.” My opponent does not have any context whatsoever to support his side. There is no way to spin this.
I was not engaging in conspiracies. I was simply offering a possible solution.This was in response to Lynne Parton, a former party planner for the Trump org. saying "as a daughter of a man born in Birmingham, Alabama, that there is no way she would work for an individual who was racist."
My opponent previously said "So she could either be getting paid off or she's just ignorant." Is this how one should debate, and then double down on it. Hold on, I'm going to revise my statements about the allegations made towards Trump.
As I said, my opponent must provide reasonable evidence to dismiss the claims. He has not, so there is no reason to dismiss the claims.
Alicia Machado is getting paid off to say Trump calling her "Mrs. Housekeeping".
"Trump turned to an adviser in the room and seemed to suggest her ethnicity should determine her career path, asking why the "pretty Korean lady" isn't negotiating with North Korea on his administration's behalf, the officials said."
The officials got paid off to say that.
Conclusion
I have debunked the claims that Trump is racist by providing reasonable to evidence to rebut the claims and providing context around some of the situations.
Per the rules my opponent will waive the final round. Speedrace agreed to in the comments when I commented "you will waive the last round, are you accepting of this rule?"
He replied "I agree." (I forgot to put it in the debate description)
Therefore, Speedrace may only respond to my new argument I put.
"Trump had a white house event honoring native American veterans (http://time.com/5038410/donald-trump-elizabeth-warren-pocahontas-2/), which is anti-racist"
He may strictly only reply to this one thing, not the Pocahontas, not anything else. No conclusions or any other messages shall be written other than this. Violation will result in a loss of conduct point.
I have enjoyed this debate and I thank my con for participating in it, it was a fun one. Vote Pro!
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
https://www.debateart.com/debates/740?open_tab=comments&comments_page=1&comment_number=155
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Kiss my goddamn ass.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Spelling and Grammar:
- Both had good spelling and grammar so it is a tie.
Reliable Sources:
- Both provided good and reasonable sources to back up their claims.
Conduct:
- Both had good conduct overall
Convincing Arguments:
- Pro was very dishonest in this point when he stated,
" Like I said in my first argument, Trump is right to say some are criminals."
- The problem is that Trump actually stated that SOME are good people and that MOST are criminals and Con pointed this out in statements such as,
" The percentage matters a lot. If you're giving money out to homeless people and there's a 1% chance that they'll spend it on drugs instead of food or something, does that mean you shouldn't give out money altogether? No! That's absurd. However, if it was a 99% chance, then that would be a good decision."
and my personal favorite...
" Why then is it ok for Trump to ignore the bigger source of crime and focus on the smaller one? The answer is it isn't."
Nextly Pro stated,
" So this is not just remarked towards Mexicans."
Con than argued,
" That doesn't matter. They're non-white."
- This is a very valid point since the debate is not on whether or not Trump is racist again Mexicans, this is on racism in general.
One of my favorite arguments Con made against pro was regarding the Black voters claim to which they responded with,
" That's racist to assume someone's economic or social position based on their race."
- This completely destroys Pro's argument regarding this point since Pro's argument against the claim was that Trump was simply trying to appeal to them. Making prejudicial assumptions regardless of intent is still racist as Con pointed out.
Pro also misrepresented Con's point regarding his analogy on giving black people jobs by stating,
" The difference from a murderer is that they are convicted and it is proven. These "racist" claims are up for debate and I have debunked pretty much all of them."
To which Con responded with,
" You completely missed the point of that analogy. My point is that doing one good deed towards black people doesn't automatically excuse someone from being racist."
- This is obviously true since Con wasn't exactly making a claim, he was simply making an analogy and debunking the giving jobs to a minoritys argument. Very plainly Pro completely missed the point of Con's argument.
All of that aside, arguably the biggest reason I feel Pro completely lost the debate was on the " biased" sources argument. Pro stated,
" Maybe find a central source than, like I suggested saying "unbiased."
To which Con replied expertly by stating,
" That's completely unnecessary. I'm not taking an opinion from them, I'm taking the proof of the claims that I'm making."
- Pro very obviously doesn't understand that even if the sources Con used were " bias", Con wasn't using them for their opinion but rather for the statistics and data.
- This point completely makes Pro's argument regarding the sources fall apart.
Another point in the debate which absoulutely destroyed pro's credibility was with their response to Con's point being,
" As I said, my opponent must provide reasonable evidence to dismiss the claims. He has not, so there is no reason to dismiss the claims.
Alicia Machado is getting paid off to say Trump calling her "Mrs. Housekeeping"."
- To which Pro made a very baseless and downright absurd accusation with little to no evidence nor analysis by stating,
"Alicia Machado is getting paid off to say Trump calling her "Mrs. Housekeeping"."
- What's really ironic about this is that Pro seems to always talk about how Con is just making assumptions while Pro is doing the EXACT same thing.
- Pro, however, did this NOT once but TWICE in the debate with another accusation similar to this regarding the " pretty Korean lady" claim. To which Pro stated,
" The officials got paid off to say that."
- This is yet another absurd and baseless accusation made by Pro.
To conclude, it is obvious to anyone who reads this debate that Con has provided substantial evidence to believe that Trump is a racist as Pro throughout this entire debate relied on making baseless accusations and overall had little understanding of con's arguments.
All of this said I award Convincing arguments to pro.
You do realize that hombre is a Spanish word for man right? There's no way around this. If he wanted to target DRUG DEALERS then he would have ONLY said DRUG DEALERS, but he didn't.
"The point is that his argument specifically targets Hispanics. That's why he says Hombres. That's a form of racial slur. It's lock calling a French person jock."
Are you kidding me? The bad hombres are drug dealers and smugglers. Bad hombres insults someone based on the content of their character, not skin color. This is definitely not clear and cut. You can't claim this is an example of racism when you are just hypothesizing it has to do with Mexicans and not drug smugglers and violent criminals.
First of all. I'm not a leftist.
Second, I'm not necessarily against strong borders.
I don't agree that ALL of the deported immigrants were illegals, but let's place that aside.
I was only pointing at his racism.
The point is that his argument specifically targets Hispanics. That's why he says Hombres. That's a form of racial slur. It's lock calling a French person jock.
Ironic that you call me stupid and dishonest when you resort to insults. Isn't that the pot calling the silver coin black.
I glad you passed on the debate because that saves me the trouble of doing so. I found your response underwhelming anyway.
How is this racist lmao this is an iconic meme
So we have drug dealers that we wan't to stop. He said we need strong borders. We need borders to stop the drugs. Wanting a border to protect our nation isn't racist. It's borders from drugs and illegals. Not just Mexicans. The bad hombres are the violent criminals and drug dealers. He is deporting some illegal families because they are illegal. It has to do with illegal immigration, not race. The left always makes it about race. He is putting some drug dealers in jail. But some come across the border unmarked because we don't have border security so we can't put them in jail, which is why we need to build a wall. Majority of republicans are not racist to wan't border security. I wan't a wall, but I'm not racist. Given how stupid and intellectually dishonest you are being on this, I'm gonna pass on the debate myself.
Yes, that is one of the many times he said something to that effect.
The whole thing is a giant implications that we have "drug dealers" and "bad hombres" "bad dudes" (he always uses this general language to keep the curtain down.). But wait, how do we get rid of all these bad people? Borders? Borders from whom? Mexicans? They're the drug dealers? They're the bad hombres?
It's a racist statement.
If his problem was drug dealers and bad hombres, then he should be putting drug dealers and bad hombres in jail. why is he deporting Mexican families who never sold a drug in their life? Are those kids that got locked up the "Bad hombres?"
You referring to this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AneeacsvNwU
Oh dear. You just told me you had a rebuttal for anything. surely something as popular as the bad hombre speech should be nothing for you.
can you cite the bad hombres speech? Gimme a link or sumthing so it gives me a sense of context?
Lemme see how your rebuttal of this one point is and I'll decide. It's normally not a topic I would debate, so You're gonna have to convince me it's worth my time.
You wanna do it here or actual debate?
Sure, rebut the "Bad Hombres" speech that he's repeatedly made. I'm waiting.
There actually isn't. I could rebut evryone of your claims of Trump's racism. Wanna debate it?
He's on record making comments that would fit the definition of racism if I was holding a dictionary when he said them. That's a much higher level of evidence than you saying "there's no proof" which is not even a claim, but rather a shallow neigh say.
In real life Trump isn't racist. That is your opinion too btw that comment u wrote
It's your opinion that you used facts and commons sense. That doesn't necessarily make it true.
Challenging me to a debating wouldn't change real life, I might just miss an argument as well.
Yes, I believe I debunked his arguments, but most of those are also based on facts and common sense.
"but fell short in real life where it actually counts." I will create a debate on Trump's racism if you want, and we can debate.
well you believe you've debunked all of your opponent's claims. However.
A) You may only THINK you've debunked them subjectively, or
B) Even if you did, that doesn't make them true, maybe your opponent missed a point. That would mean that you debunked him in the debate, but fell short in real life where it actually counts.
Thanks for the vague feedback. I have debunked all of my opponent's claims.
The evidence is quite obvious. He has been on record specifically attributing qualities to a race. Whether or not he hates people of other races, the fact is that he is racist by definition.
It seems as although you think Trump is racist.
Directly quoting material and taking care to incorporate significant context is a best practice IMO. Your most recent paraphrasing isn't accurate, either. I said "unlikely", not "very unlikely". That's a meaningful difference.
"The impact that time has on the probability that Trump is racist isn't as significant as you're making it out to be. People don't change often. It's unlikely that Trump has genuinely reformed." You cited that allegation in 1991. That is 28 years.
Should I revise it to "It's very unlikely that Trump can't change in 30 years?" Is that better?
"You are the one who said people can't change in 30 years." I didn't say that. You made that up.
Hey stop moving the goalposts. I used RM's definition and proved fake news and you have not contested it, which tells me you know I'm right. You won't convince me otherwise, because you have dodged it 2 times now. Bye!
Whose fault was it that the definitions weren't clearly laid out and what both parties burdens were?
that was a rebuttal and you are not even contesting it lol
plus i couldn't post in round 3 so if there were any new arguments it's because I couldn't do it in round 3.
Radical?
You really need help if you actually think I am.
In the final Round when you are supposed to be rebutting instead of bringing in new arguments? Okay.
ye i already knew you were a radical leftist u dont have to tell me lul
lol read my final round i use his own definition and article he quoted and proved fake news not my prob u cant read lmao
Lol who supports the Republican party and is a theist?
Not me.
lol and why u always tryna start crap and argue in the comments lmao dm me if u wanna argue
"Funny you said that, because I actually used RM's definition and article he cited and brought clear evidence of fake news USING HIS DEFINITION."
I don't know what debate you were reading but he used the actual definition of Fake News whereas you used your own. Even then when you have 2 definitions to work with you still couldn't prove that CNN is Fake News.
Funny you said that, because I actually used RM's definition and article he cited and brought clear evidence of fake news USING HIS DEFINITION.
"my arguments were so good."
I call that delusion if you actually read my breakdown you would realise even by your own definition what you stated was not Fake News.
I made claims before that round too. RM didn't respond although he had the full power too, probably because he knew my arguments were so good.
"I actually made really good arguments"
But you still think I voted based on biases even though you admitted making "good" arguments as in new arguments which were not given in Round 1. You gave RM 1 Round to respond to your claims.
bop
So who knows if Trump read the book? He probably didn't. He just said "the things he wrote about me are probably true." Even if he did, he can't possibly direct it at that one quote from O'Donnell that you cherry-picked. It seems like Trump really hate him, so we don't know what Trump was referencing. You are the one who said people can't change in 30 years. Not me. Trump changed from a Liberal to a Republican, but I thought people can't change. The only being not being intellectually honest are the ones who take things out of context and try to spin it in a way that makes Trump look bad. In the CNN debate, I actually made really good arguments in the final round that RM couldn't respond to, because he had misinformation.
The full interview is behind a paywall. Trump appears to have been referring to what O'Donnel wrote about him in the book in general. The evidence that Trump has changed is weak. "So now your saying people can't change in 30 years." is a straw man argument. You're not being intellectually honest on this subject, and you weren't in the CNN debate, either.
"Even if the evidence brought up is old, if there is enough of it throughout the years it would show sustained racially charged behaviours that is more likely than not to have carried forward into present days."
I agree. But whether the evidence throughout the years is credible or accurate is what the this whole debate surrounds.
To be fair, I'm not interested in allegations. "The stuff O’Donnell wrote about me is probably true." This was a snipet from an interview. What is he referencing? Give me the full interview link and then I'll decide. Trump also allegedly said he wants short Jewish people counting his money in that same statement. He doesn't sound very serious.
So now your saying people can't change in 30 years. OK BUD
The impact that time has on the probability that Trump is racist isn't as significant as you're making it out to be. People don't change often. It's unlikely that Trump has genuinely reformed.
But Trump has been called out several times for racial insensitivity by former co-workers and civil rights activists. In 1991, Trump was accused of making racial slurs against black people in a book written by John R. O’Donnell, former president of Trump Plaza Hotel & Casino, called “Trumped!” O’Donnell wrote that Trump once said, in reference to a black accountant at Trump Plaza, “laziness is a trait in blacks.” He also told O’Donnell: “Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day.”
Trump called O’Donnell a disgruntled employee but he didn’t deny allegations made in the book during an interview with Playboy magazine in 1999:
“Nobody has had worse things written about them than me,” Trump says. “And here I am. The stuff O’Donnell wrote about me is probably true. The guy’s a fucking loser. A fucking loser. I brought the guy in to work for me; it turns out he didn’t know that much about what he was doing. I think I met the guy two or three times total. And this guy goes off and writes a book about me, like he knows me!”
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/donald-trump-blacks-lawsuit_n_855553
I did not speak of specifics. Just that your request for "recent" evidence is unnecessary when considering "more likely than not" in terms of racism.
For example, if my neighbour consistently shouted racist slurs throughout a period of 20 years moved away, and returned after 10 years, I would consider it more likely than not that he is still racist.
First of all, I said I could debunk that argument. Second, there is little to no evidence throughout the years, which I have debunked in this debate.
Even if the evidence brought up is old, if there is enough of it throughout the years it would show sustained racially charged behaviours that is more likely than not to have carried forward into present days.
Vox probably brought the interview out of context anyway. Never trust Vox.
I could probably debunk that too, however I did say it had to be fairly recent years, and that is over 20 years ago, probably more. He was still a liberal at that time before he changed to a republican in the early 2000's.
This from the Vox article:
A book by John O’Donnell, former president of Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino in Atlantic City, quoted Trump’s criticism of a black accountant: “Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day. … I think that the guy is lazy. And it’s probably not his fault, because laziness is a trait in blacks. It really is, I believe that. It’s not anything they can control.” Trump at first denied the remarks, but later said in a 1997 Playboy interview that “the stuff O’Donnell wrote about me is probably true.”
Might be the most compelling because of Trump's admission that it was probably true.
bop