How Christians shot themselves in the foot by rejecting Polytheists

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Basically, original Christians came to polytheists and said that they should accept Jesus, which polytheists did because polytheists are allowed to worship as many Gods as possible and Jesus seemed like a fine God to worship.

However, then Christians, after gaining power, changed the whole story.

Christians from the start tried to turn polytheists into monotheists, but it was mostly just talk.

But after gaining power, Christians used force to wipe out polytheism from the face of the Earth.

Christians basically shot themselves in the foot, because Polytheists will never accept them again and no Polytheist will ever trust a Christian again.

In fact, all Christian actions did was prove that no one should trust Christians.

#2

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11.20.2023 10:14PM

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Consider Mithraism.

For maybe a hundred year stretch, the devotees of this god met in caves and worshiped the slayer of the cosmic bull. Unlike the worshipers of a certain Jewish figure, however, the Mithraists didn't consider their religion exclusive. They worshiped the emperor and the Greco-Roman pantheon as well.

What happened to them? They went extinct by the end of antiquity. Their extinction, in fact, was so complete that today we know almost nothing about their faith. Very few records or artifacts pertaining to it survive.

In contrast, the religion of slaves, illiterate women, and martyrs being turned into live tiki torches for Nero's dinner parties now has adherents on every continent. Sounds to me like Christians chose the winning strategy.

Topic's author

#3

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@Swagnarok

Yes, it sounds so, but you might not wanna call it "winning strategy". After all, Christianity is in decline and you really dont want to admit how your religion eradicated entire cultures and installed religious totalitarianism. It doesnt sound okay, which kinda adds to the already big pile of things that dont sound okay in Christianity. But Christianity was doomed to decline anyway.

Winning strategy? Heh good one.

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11.21.2023 03:18AM

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@Best.Korea

After all, Christianity is in decline

Where? In the Western world? Is Christianity losing overall if it declines in one part of the world while steadily picking up more adherents elsewhere? Because newsflash: There were an estimated 2.38 billion Christians in 2020. There have never been so many alive in the world at one time.

If the number of Christians in the world literally halved every 20 years, then 200 years from now there'd still be more Christians globally than the number of self-identified pagans currently alive in the United States.

and you really dont want to admit how your religion eradicated entire cultures

I care about people, not cultures. Human beings aren't museum-pieces who belong to X set of behavioral and ideological norms just because they were born in a certain place at a certain time. If a culture practices human sacrifice, widow burning, infant exposure, coercive prostitution, pederasty, or treats some people like cattle because they were born into a certain socioeconomic caste, then good riddance. I would be glad to see Christians put said culture to death.

and installed religious totalitarianism

The Western world that Christians built is decisively not totalitarian. In fact, the only totalitarian states left in the world today are communist (atheistic) regimes like China and North Korea, or Islamic theocracies like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

This is because normative Christian values are informed by the New Testament, not the Old Testament. Of course, at certain points in history this happened to not be the case, but the inherent structure of our faith means these were deviations that, eventually would be corrected.

It doesnt sound okay, which kinda adds to the already big pile of things that dont sound okay in Christianity

I understand if one might view the concept of eternal hell as monstrous. However, believing in an otherwise non-existent hell doesn't make it real, nor does refusing to believe in an existent hell make it fake.

For the sake of this discussion, what matters is the consequences of Christianity on earth. And the world created by Christians is profoundly liberal. Slavery is outlawed everywhere, women have an inalienable right to withhold sexual consent even to their husbands, poor children around the world are able to receive an education, Third Worlders are beneficiaries of food and other aid, global lifespans now average about 70 years, etc. Furthermore it's a modern world with electricity and the internet.

But Christianity was doomed to decline anyway.

From Constantine to this moment, about 1700 years have passed. How can a religion be doomed to fail if its corresponding civilizational bloc survived 1700 years? That's probably longer than the period of time during which Latins believed in Roman polytheism, or the Greeks in Greek polytheism.

#5

Sidewalker

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Sidewalker

11.21.2023 07:57AM

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@Swagnarok

Consider Mithraism.

For maybe a hundred year stretch, the devotees of this god met in caves and worshiped the slayer of the cosmic bull. Unlike the worshipers of a certain Jewish figure, however, the Mithraists didn't consider their religion exclusive. They worshiped the emperor and the Greco-Roman pantheon as well.

What happened to them? They went extinct by the end of antiquity. Their extinction, in fact, was so complete that today we know almost nothing about their faith. Very few records or artifacts pertaining to it survive.

In contrast, the religion of slaves, illiterate women, and martyrs being turned into live tiki torches for Nero's dinner parties now has adherents on every continent. Sounds to me like Christians chose the winning strategy.

Mithraism predated Christianity but the two religions did coexist for a long time, and it was during an era when different religions were not as polarizing as they are today, for the most part they peacefully coexisted. Instead of crude and boastful contrasts, there were borrowings and exchanges, mutual help, cross-fertilization that led sometimes to good strong hybrids, but for the most part simply enriched both spiritual cultures.

It’s about religion alive, about spirituality developing in time, Mithraism may be gone but it’s not forgotten, its contribution lives on in the spiritual heritage of Christianity and the other faiths it influenced.

Topic's author

#6

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@Swagnarok

Where? In the Western world? Is Christianity losing overall if it declines

Oh, you didnt hear. Poor you. Now you must be educated:

"51% of U.S. teens, ages 13 to 19, identify as Christians, but only 8% display beliefs and behaviors that are consistent with being committed to their faith"

Only 8%? Oh poor guys.

8%...

Well, the Bible predicted decline too, so good job predicting that, Bible.

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11.21.2023 02:21PM

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11.21.2023 02:21PM

Angel; God, it looks like there is a natural disaster brewing on Earth that will destroy all life.

God; So what? You know I lost my God license for my poor design of life on earth. That is why I can't talk to anyone down there through a burning bush. I thought I was just going to create a worm, but it evolved into an Ape. .......So, get me some nude pictures of Melania off Trump's cell phone.

Angel; Hello! The natural disaster is Trump.

#8

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11.21.2023 09:21PM

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@Best.Korea

Basically, original Christians came to polytheists and said that they should accept Jesus, which polytheists did because polytheists are allowed to worship as many Gods as possible and Jesus seemed like a fine God to worship.

However, then Christians, after gaining power, changed the whole story.

Christians from the start tried to turn polytheists into monotheists, but it was mostly just talk.

But after gaining power, Christians used force to wipe out polytheism from the face of the Earth.

Christians basically shot themselves in the foot, because Polytheists will never accept them again and no Polytheist will ever trust a Christian again.

In fact, all Christian actions did was prove that no one should trust Christians.

Monotheism existed prior to the notion of polytheism.

It was the first religion. Many people rejected this - since having ONE God is troubling since it means if you don't follow that one God, then you are in trouble. Hence, humanity wanted to make god and gods after their own image. Or in ways they could control. Polytheism is simply gods made after people - and their ideas of what god or gods should be.

They don't want a GOD who says - "I am who I Am". The "I AM" is the only God who is not made in man's image since he stands alone from man's image.

The Greek gods and the Roman gods are just like humans with their flaws - except they have superpowers. Superior to us in power, but still subject to the same flaws that humans have. This is the same for every other god except the God of the Bible.

Christians didn't shoot themselves in the foot. And even a more objective person would recognise that the Jews, who existed prior to the Christians, worshiped a monotheistic God.

Topic's author

#9

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11.21.2023 09:39PM

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@Tradesecret

Monotheism existed prior to the notion of polytheism

You are the master of saying the most irrelevant things. I bow to the master. Please master, teach me your wicked ways.

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11.21.2023 09:46PM

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@Best.Korea

It is believed that polytheism first appeared in the ancient Mesopotamian (specifically Sumer) region as far back as 5,000 years ago, or more.

Many scholars believe that the first recorded instance of a monotheistic religion was in Egypt circa 1350 BC under the rule of the pharaoh Akhenaten. Egyptian religion was polytheistic in nature, and Akhenaten's departure from this tradition was a radical change in Egyptian society.

#11

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@FLRW

It is believed that polytheism first appeared in the ancient Mesopotamian (specifically Sumer) region as far back as 5,000 years ago, or more.
Many scholars believe that the first recorded instance of a monotheistic religion was in Egypt circa 1350 BC under the rule of the pharaoh Akhenaten. Egyptian religion was polytheistic in nature, and Akhenaten's departure from this tradition was a radical change in Egyptian society.

According to some. Many scholars reject this view too.

#12

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11.21.2023 09:49PM

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@Best.Korea

Monotheism existed prior to the notion of polytheism
You are the master of saying the most irrelevant things. I bow to the master. Please master, teach me your wicked ways.

It is entirely relevant to this topic. You made an assertion that is false. I provided an assertion with reason to demonstrate that falsity.

I am not your master. I do not teach wicked ways.

Topic's author

#13

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11.21.2023 09:52PM

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@Tradesecret

You made an assertion that is false.

Try being a little more specific than that. This really wont work if you cant specifically say which assertion was false.

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11.22.2023 07:32AM

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@Tradesecret

I reject the scholars.

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@FLRW

FLRW wrote: It is believed that polytheism first appeared in the ancient Mesopotamian (specifically Sumer) .

Tradesecret wrote: Monotheism existed prior to the notion of polytheism.

FLRW you are correct.

There is absolutely no evidence anywhere in the world that even indicates that monotheism came before polytheism. The Reverend, as usual, is speaking out of arse. But when doesn't he?

#16

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11.24.2023 07:43AM

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Presumably one can be a monodeist polytheist.

And therefore also a polydeist monotheist.

Such are the wonders of swapping around symbolic representations of abstract concepts.

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https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10109/posts/416349

11.24.2023 09:18PM

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@Stephen

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Stephen,

Did you notice the following unchristian-like statement Miss Tradesecret made in her anti-bible post #8?!!!!!

MISS TRADESECRET'S UNGODLY QUOTE RELATIVE TO THE BIBLE: "The Greek gods and the Roman gods are just like humans with their flaws - except they have superpowers. Superior to us in power, but still subject to the same flaws that humans have. This is the same for every other god except the God of the Bible."

Barring the FACT that Miss Tradesecet is giving credence and in inferring Greek and Roman Gods actually existed, which are in part, Jupiter, Juno, Mars, and Zeus, Apollo and Dionysus. Whereas, a TRUE Christian IS NOT to mention the names of other Gods as shown in this following passage: “Pay attention to all that I have said to you, and make no mention of the names of other gods, nor let it be heard on your lips." (Exodus 23:13)

As usual, Miss Tradesecret continues to be this Religion Forum's #1 Bible Stupid Fool!

NEXT PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN WOMAN LIKE "MISS TRADESECRET" THAT WANTS TO THINK THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT, WILL BE ...?

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#18

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11.24.2023 10:02PM

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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas

Stephen,

Did you notice the following unchristian-like statement Miss Tradesecret made in her anti-bible post #8?!!!!!

MISS TRADESECRET'S UNGODLY QUOTE RELATIVE TO THE BIBLE: "The Greek gods and the Roman gods are just like humans with their flaws - except they have superpowers. Superior to us in power, but still subject to the same flaws that humans have. This is the same for every other god except the God of the Bible."
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10109/posts/416349

As usual, Miss Tradesecret continues to be this Religion Forum's #1 Bible Stupid Fool!

Well considering that I have quite a few run-ins with the Reverend Tradesecret over this very subject he seems now to be agreeing with what I have been saying all along from the day I joined here. After continually denying that the BIBLE itself mentions other gods.

What he doesn't seem to be able to get through that dense skull bone of his is that the Hebrew god clearly acknowledges these other gods as being the gods of other nations and religions. The Hebrew god is simply telling HIS /portion of people that he is their (allotted) god and they should have no other or worship any other.

The Hebrew god even instructs HIS (allotted) people "not to revile the gods of other nations or the kings" of other peoples Exodus 22:28. Hence the Hebrew god is clearly affording the gods of other nations due respect.

Its simply really. I am amazed it took so long for such an theologically educated and trained Pastor and tutor of religion to students such as the Reverend Tradesecret claims to be, to only now come to realise it and finally admit it. Even the bible mentions and recognises the Greek gods Jupiter and Mercury.

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11.24.2023 10:56PM

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@zedvictor4

I reject the scholars.

okay.

All of them or just some of them? Or just the ones whom you disagree with?

#20

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@Tradesecret

I reject the idea that anyone can be scholarly about about non-scholastic assumptions.

Which isn't to say that non- scholastic assumptions don't evolve into broader subjects.

So I would differentiate between a hypothetical text and the ongoing historical and social ramifications of a hypothetical text.

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11.26.2023 05:22PM

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@Stephen

Stephen,

YOUR QUOTE OF OTHER GODS IN THE BIBLE: "Even the bible mentions and recognises the Greek gods Jupiter and Mercury."

Barring the FACT that Miss Tradesecret has violated Jesus' words AGAIN by mentioning said gods in her embarrassing and ever so weak post #8, my Christian Bible also gives Creedence to the God ZEUS as being real!!!! Therefore, how can Zeus be REAL within the scriptures and Jesus too at the same time?

"When the crowd saw what Paul had done, they shouted in the Lycaonian language, ‘The gods have come down to us in human form!’ Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes because he was the chief speaker. The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates because he and the crowd wanted to offer sacrifices to them.” (Acts 14: 11-13)

This verse above gives credence to ZEUS and HERMES as being as real as Paul and Barnabas, AND JESUS, along with Zeus’ temple outside of the city. NOW WHAT?

“Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.“ (Proverbs 30:5)

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#22

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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas

Your post

#21

Indeed Brother.

You'd think by now that the Reverend would have worked out how these names of gods are applied to living humans of status. I have given the clown many examples and many clues where this practiced is applied.

Even to this day Popes and nuns and all sorts of clergy apply this practice after they reach a certain degree in their chosen religions or holy orders on their ordination. i.e. they are renamed or they rename themselves after "the saints" and "angels".

This is an ancient practice that can be traced back to Abram that became Abraham. Jacob, that became Israel. etc etc.

But I think all of this is a little too deep for the Reverend Tradesecret, Brother D. So I'll leave it there.

#23

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@zedvictor4

I reject the idea that anyone can be scholarly about about non-scholastic assumptions.

So you would reject evolution and any so-called scholarly discussion about the beginning of the universe? Perhaps you might address what makes something scholarly or non-scholarly.

Which isn't to say that non- scholastic assumptions don't evolve into broader subjects.

Cake and eating. Or a walking back. Backflip. This statement means nothing. It is fluff. No offence.

So I would differentiate between a hypothetical text and the ongoing historical and social ramifications of a hypothetical text.

The topic is in relation to Christians advocating for a monotheistic deity. The author and others suggest that the view that many deities were based around local regions was not just the predominant view but the original view and that the Christian monotheistic view is a later view. The Christian view, the Jewish View, and the Islamic view - is historically that monotheism was the original view. It is noted that there is a non-historical view within Christian and other circles that this is not true; albeit this non-historical view is relatively modern and primarily with the so-called liberal elements of the church.

Both sides of this argument have their experts and their reasons for their conclusions. The ongoing social ramifications of either view are subjective. I suggest that the view of polytheistic deities is an Eastern Phenomenon. And has migrated into the West via multiculturalism. It is seen within the mystical and experience-based culture we have now. Hence on a philosophical base, we have moved from modernism to post-modernism. From reason to experience.

All worldviews are undergirded by theology. Theology is inescapable. We all tend to focus on the one or the many. On a monotheistic god or many gods. Atheism is the ultimate polytheistic view. For is makes every individual their own unique god. For without a real god existing, then everyone is their own god. And therefore everyone everywhere is a god. Hence multi - theism or polytheism. Everyone does right in their own eyes. They determine the rules for themselves and bow only to those who have real genuine power like the state and perhaps the rich and powerful. Then they reveal only that they are slaves.

The monotheists amongst us - still tend to believe that truth exists. Objective truth and objective right and wrong. They don't believe that individuals make their own rules for their own lives. This is the issue.

Christianity, following the historical views of the Jewish bible believes there is only one GOD. We think and hold to the view that humanity rejects this and makes gods in their own images. They want to be masters of their own fate. The God of the Bible says - no. I am the God who determines the way things are.

I suggest the reason there are so many religions and views is because there was an original - that was copied. Or counterfeited.

#24

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See: https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1454/monotheism-in-the-ancient-world/

#25

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@Tradesecret

Christians advocating for a monotheistic deity.

My point entirely.

Evolution is theoretical, though material development is discernible.

Whereas deism though hypothetical, is not discernibly evidenced.

And for sure, someone who reads old books a lot and thereby makes a lot of subjective assumptions, might be regarded as scholarly.

Especially within what might be regarded as a scholarly environment.

Nonetheless there is no necessity for the basis of the associated data to be scholarly.

Though one must concede that scholarly today is not the same as scholarly was 2000 years ago, nor what scholarly has been over the intervening centuries.

Yet still no closer to proving deistic hypotheses.

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@FLRW

To quote your link.

https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1454/monotheism-in-the-ancient-world/
In the ancient world, the concept of monotheism as we understand it today did not exist; all ancient people were polytheists. They may have elevated one god as higher than the others (henotheism) but nevertheless recognized the existence of divine multiplicity.

It is as I pointed out to you above at #15

saying

FLRW you are correct.

There is absolutely no evidence anywhere in the world that even indicates that monotheism came before polytheism. The Reverend, as usual, is speaking out of arse. But when doesn't he?

#27

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https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10109/posts/416702

11.28.2023 05:37PM

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@Stephen

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Stephen,

Yes, as usual, it's that time again in correcting our #1 Bible Stupid Miss Tradesecret! What's new? NOTHING!

MISS TRADESECRETS MISALIGNED VIEW OF THE ABRAHAMIC GODS: “The Christian view, the Jewish View, and the Islamic view - is historically that monotheism was the original view.”

Houston, we have a problem! When the Bible Stupid Miss Tradesecret states in her quote above that ALL of the Abrahamic religions were monotheist, THAT SHARE THE SAME GOD CONCEPT, cannot be monotheistically true like she said because this same god concept CONTRADICTS itself in said 3 religions!!!

HEBREW GOD YAHWEH STATED:

“I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,” (Isaiah 45:5)

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.” (Isaiah 44:6)

Therefore, the Jews believe in Yahweh as shown above, and since Christians stole Yahweh from the Jews and made Him into the Christian God, then this IS NOT a perceived “one Abrahamic God concept" because Jesus does not follow the Yahweh tradition, but changed it in the New Testament!

CHRISTIAN GOD JESUS STATED:

“Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)

Since the Father is God, which Jesus must have forgotten that He is the One God (John 20:27-28), then the Jews and Muslims DO NOT believe in Jesus as their God, then there is a blatant CONTRADICTION of the alleged Abrahamic One God concept that is supposed to be equal to the 3 Abrahamic religions! 2+2=4.

OUR EVER LOVING AND FORGIVING JESUS SAID: “But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.” (Luke 19:27).

The above action by Jesus includes the Jews and Muslims! SAME ONE ABRAHAMIC GOD CONCEPT IN THE SAID ABRAHAMIC RELIGIONS, NOT!

MUSLIM GOD ALLAH STATED:

”O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.” (Qur’an 5:51)

“Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes, as he did the Sabbath-breakers.” (Qur’an 2:65-66)

Therefore since the Muslim God Allah says DO NOT take the Jews and Christians as friends, and they have to believe in Allah, or Allah will disfigure their faces, then once again, the Abrahamic one god concept is a CONTRADICTION that cannot be true in any way whatsoever!

Seriously, when does the membership realize that when in conversation with this forums #1 Bible Stupid Fool, "Miss Tradesecret," that her rhetorical posts are her OPINIONS that are NOT vouchsafed whatsoever by biblical axioms, period!

IS THERE ANOTHER PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN WOMAN THAT WOULD LIKE TO TAKE THE PLACE OF MISS TRADESECRETS BIBLE STUPIDITY? ANYONE?

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#28

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11.28.2023 05:45PM

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@Stephen

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Stephen,

MISS TRADESECRETS QUOTE STEPPING IN THE PROVERBIAL POO AGAIN!: “I suggest the reason there are so many religions and views is because there was an original - that was copied. Or counterfeited.“
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10109/posts/416702

WTF?!!! How dare Miss Tradesecret allude to the FACT that Jesus is the COPYCAT of the many Egyptian Gods, where said Gods have the same modus operandi that Jesus has thousands of years before He existed, like Osiris, Horus, etc.! Therefore, she gives the impression that since Jesus was COPIED from earlier Egyptian Gods, then if we accept that these Gods were myths, then Jesus is a myth!!! How DARE SHE propose such ungodly rhetoric!

Yes, we know, since Miss Tradesecret is a FEMALE as explicitly shown in this link: https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEGZNA4 then she has yet to learn Jesus’ inspired words to just STFU while she in within this forum as shown in the passage below:

"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain silent." (1 Timothy 2:11)

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#29

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