Why Trump should be disqualified - Legal arguments only

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There's been plenty of debate here over whether Trump should be disqualified but I wanted to focus purely on the legal arguments everyone finds most convincing, including one in particular that I came up with which I will lay out below.

First, let's break this down. The legal case comes down to three parts:
1) Does the 14th amendment section 3 apply to  Trump?
2) Did Donald Trump engage in insurrection or provide aid and comfort to the enemies thereof?
3) Who and by what process is this decision made?

Part 1 is obvious in my opinion. To argue the office of the presidency is not an office under the United States is absurd on its face, plus this question was already brought up and resolved at the time the amendment was drafted.

Part 2 is a big one but ultimately pointless to debate until the answer to part 3 is resolved.

Part 3 is therefore where I believe the debate here is. So when it comes to who decides let me begin with section 5:

"The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."

What I'm reading here is that it's Congress's job to determine the proper process by which this issue is resolved, however it appears no such legislation was ever drafted. This in my opinion strengthens the argument that section 3 is "self executing", meaning that it's up to the courts to decide based on the legal challenges it receives. This amendment is therefore no different than adjudicating any other ballot eligibility issue such as whether an aspiring candidate is 35 or an American born citizen. No trial is required in those cases, nor is one required here.

Being that Congress never did appropriate legislation to resolve this, the only option apart from self execution is that the courts don't have the authority to decide either, in which case the answer is that no one gets to decide and section 3 becomes null and void. That outcome is definitionally out of line with the constitution.

But wait...

About two days ago I heard a rebuttal that actually did change my mind and convinced me that Trump should in fact be left in the ballot. It went as follows: Although there is no official process to address section 3, this question was already adjudicated in Congress in Trump's 2nd impeachment trial. It was the exact charge section 3 describes and Trump was aquitted. Therefore the SC has no rightful business stepping in and deciding that their opinion on whether Trump is guilty overrides the very body that section 5 deems as the body with the power to enforce this amendment.

I accepted this argument until thinking it over today. Here is why I believe that argument ultimately fails: First is that the reason Congress used the impeachment process to adjudicate this issue is because that was the only process constitutionally available to them so it wasn't designed to address this specific issue. The Impeachment trial in the Senate is split into two votes, first is conviction requiring a 2/3rds majority which results in removal from office. The second, upon conviction, requires a simple majority resulting in disqualification. The bar for the first vote is intentionally high because the removal of a sitting president is far more disruptive and demoralizing to the country. The second vote has a lower threshold because disqualification is not nearly as disruptive.

So with that in mind, the fact that the Senate voted 57 to 43 when the only issue at play here was disqualification is notable for a number of reasons. First is that disqualification requiring a simple majority was intended for the case where a president commits any action that qualifies as a high crime or misdemeanor. But the charge here is not any high crime or misdemeanor, in fact it is the only high crime that has its own special disqualification clause in the constitution so that right there tells us the threshold here could very easily be thought of differently. And in fact, section 3 lays it out:

"But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability."

In the context of this argument, this clause tells us a lot. First is that the framers of the 14th amendment thought this issue was so important that even if 3/5ths of Congress thought he should be on the ballot, that would not be enough to clear him. The second thing it tells us is that Congress is not actually the intended arbiter if this issue. Section 5 is clearly meant as an override, meaning the case would have been decided by the time it gets to Congress.

So given all of this, here's how I see it; The only two bodies in question that have a constitutional claim to arbitrate this issue nationally is Congress and the SC. The argument that Congress is the arbiter fails in my opinion but even if it doesn't that only hurts Trump. The  most favorable answer to Part 3 I asked earlier is therefore that the SC gets to decide Part 2.

From there, is just a question of whether in the opinions of the 9 justices, Trump engaged in insurrection. While I have no confidence they would find that he did, from here is just a matter of facts and logic which I find undeniable.

So what do you think about this? And what arguments for or against his disqualification do you find most convincing.
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1) Does the 14th amendment section 3 apply to  Trump?
yes

2) Did Donald Trump engage in insurrection or provide aid and comfort to the enemies thereof?
Under the process of impeachment and more recently, due to the removal of executive immunity, under the courts of law, No.

3) Who and by what process is this decision made?
See above.

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@Double_R


The Sweep and Force of Section Three
126 Pages Posted: 14 Aug 2023 Last revised: 19 Sep 2023
William Baude
University of Chicago - Law School
Michael Stokes Paulsen
University of St. Thomas School of Law
Date Written: August 9, 2023

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@FLRW
It's worth noting that the Constitution can be flawed. Suspending democracy for any reason has significant unintended effects.
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Under the process of impeachment and more recently,
The jury pool was biased. They were looking out for their own careers and donations.

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@FLRW
What does it mean when someone says people should fight like hell to overturn election results?

And after that was said, the attack happened!

Now, one does not need great thinking to conclude that the claim "fight like hell" includes physical violence. It doesnt exclude it.
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@Best.Korea
Now, one does not need great thinking to conclude that the claim "fight like hell" includes physical violence. It doesnt exclude it.

Fighting words have been struck down a great many times in the SCOTUS. It's actually amusing to wiki the court cases and see the ridiculous things you can legally say and get away with.
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@Greyparrot
Trump didnt do any favor to USA by challenging election results with no evidence.

What happens now is that every side will challenge election results when it loses.

Congratulations. You guys are getting closer to civil war thanks to Trump.
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Rex Tillerson’s alleged comment that President Trump was “a moron” brings to reality the words of HL Mencken in the Baltimore Sun (26 July 1920):
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

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@Best.Korea
I find it funny that we can live in a country where Democracy can be suspended if you say "Fight like Hell"
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@Best.Korea
You guys are getting closer to civil war thanks to Trump.
Trump isn't suspending Democracy.

What happens now is that every side will challenge election results when it loses.
This is actually a long American tradition that goes back to Bush V  Gore.

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Trump isn't suspending Democracy.
He tried to steal the election of 2020. He invented the BIG LIE

This is actually a long American tradition that goes back to Bush V  Gore.
That election, in Florida, was separated by less than 500 votes. The Republicans cheated in that election too. 

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@Greyparrot
You do understand that people dont want Trump?

In fact, if we followed democracy, Hillary would be president from 2017-2021.

Trump literally never won the popular vote, so we can say that Trump already suspended democracy twice.
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On Jan.6 , I'm guessing Greyparrot was yelling, Hang Mike Pence, Hang Mike Pence!
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I find it funny that we can live in a country where Democracy can be suspended if you say "Fight like Hell"
Ya, that’s all he did. Idiot.

He didn’t invent the BIG LIE
He didn’t pressure PENCE to break the law.
He didn’t say, fellas, I just need 11,000 votes
He didn’t call around to various Secretaries of State to pressure them to cheat

All he did, in your pathetic little world, is say fight like hell.

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@Best.Korea
You do understand that people dont want Trump?
Cool, then Democracy does not need to be suspended.
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Reported for unwarranted Adhom.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
All he did, in your pathetic little world, is say fight like hell.
Even that is a call to violence, since the word "fight" includes physical violence in its definition. After he said that, the violence did happen, so what more needs to be added?

But yes, its a bit strange that person who tried to overturn election results is allowed to be elected again, but its not a problem.

If Bidens wins, democrats win 2024.

If Trump wins, democrats win 2028 after Trump screws up economy again with his tax cuts and stealing healthcare from people.
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@Greyparrot
2) Did Donald Trump engage in insurrection or provide aid and comfort to the enemies thereof?
Under the process of impeachment and more recently, due to the removal of executive immunity, under the courts of law, No.
The impeachment implications was one of the main points of my post. Care to explain what I got wrong?

It's worth noting that the Constitution can be flawed. Suspending democracy for any reason has significant unintended effects.
Do you believe we are obligated to follow the constitution? Yes or No?
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@FLRW
Can't download the PDF, says I need a sign on and password. Was there something beyond the abstract you found pertinent to pursue?

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@Double_R

I only read the abstract.

Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment forbids holding office by former office holders who then participate in insurrection or rebellion. Because of a range of misperceptions and mistaken assumptions, Section Three’s full legal consequences have not been appreciated or enforced. This article corrects those mistakes by setting forth the full sweep and force of Section Three.

First, Section Three remains an enforceable part of the Constitution, not limited to the Civil War, and not effectively repealed by nineteenth century amnesty legislation. Second, Section Three is self-executing, operating as an immediate disqualification from office, without the need for additional action by Congress. It can and should be enforced by every official, state or federal, who judges qualifications. Third, to the extent of any conflict with prior constitutional rules, Section Three repeals, supersedes, or simply satisfies them. This includes the rules against bills of attainder or ex post facto laws, the Due Process Clause, and even the free speech principles of the First Amendment. Fourth, Section Three covers a broad range of conduct against the authority of the constitutional order, including many instances of indirect participation or support as “aid or comfort.” It covers a broad range of former offices, including the Presidency. And in particular, it disqualifies former President Donald Trump, and potentially many others, because of their participation in the attempted overthrow of the 2020 presidential election.

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i ddn't read all the opening post, but it didn't look like an insurrection to me. i see there are arguments for and against him egging them on, but if it was truly an insurrection, i think it would be clearer. i dont think he'd say to 'peaceably' protest like he did. i realize that's just one point in the pro v con of whether it was an insurrection, but at most i see that he egged them on. his opponents are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. 
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@n8nrgim
i dont think he'd say to 'peaceably' protest
I wonder why all his supporters didnt follow that command, but some chose this instead:

"if you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore"

Could you imagine MAGA thinking that they are not going to have a country if they accept election results?

Yeah, and then the attack happened.

Trump of course hoped that more people will attack, but not even average MAGA is ready to die for Trump. Well, some did die.
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@Best.Korea

Well MAGA does mean Make A-holes Great Again.
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@Best.Korea
i dont think he'd say to 'peaceably' protest
I wonder why all his supporters didnt follow that command, but some chose this instead:

"if you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore"

Could you imagine MAGA thinking that they are not going to have a country if they accept election results?
This is the game Trump plays. If there's one thing he is truly good at it's playing both sides of the fence in a way that confuses his critics while giving his supporters enough of a void to fill in the blank with whatever they want.

With January 6th though it fails more spectacularly than most. He had just spent the prior two months telling his supporters that their voices had been stolen from them by the very people in 'that building over there'. So the idea that they were going to save their country by making their voices heard to the very people who just stole them is logically absurd.

It was a false exculpatory, he knew none of his supporters would hear that. The purpose of him saying it is to provide an out to anyone who might be reluctant to hold him accountable for whatever would happen next. It's the same tactic mob bosses have been using for decades, and it's no wonder where Trump learned this from given the attorney he proudly looks up to as his mentor.
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@Double_R
Anyone who wants power attacks indirectly, uses others for dirty work and for attacks, and then blames the attacks on them while in reality he pulled their strings. Its the same old story of attacker pretending to be the victim.

Everyone smart knew for a fact that peaceful protest of a small group is not going to overthrow those election results. Everyone smart knew that Trump presented no good evidence for election theft. Everyone smart knew that Trump had largest disapproval rate since Nixon.

MAGA attack on the elected government had only one logical purpose, which is to start a civil war and overthrow the elected government.

Other than that, there is no explanation for the attack. Actually, when we remove that as purpose, the attack made no sense as it only put Trump in trouble and made MAGA look bad.
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@Greyparrot
You do understand that people dont want Trump?
Cool, then Democracy does not need to be suspended.
You think abiding by Constitutional Law is suspending democracy?

What parts of the Constitution don't apply?  Can a twenty-year-old run for President, would applying the Constitutional mandate about age be "suspending democracy"?  How about your guy Putin, would it be suspending democracy if we abide by Consitutional law that you must be a natural born citizen living in the US for 14 years.  Saying Putin can't be President of the United States is suspending democracy?


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@Double_R
The OP is well thought out, good job.

The task at hand is to interpret the Constitution, that responsibility clearly falls within the domain of the Supreme Court, but I'm with you in having no confidence whatsoever in THIS Supreme Court doing the right thing.  


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@Sidewalker
Trump is not legally an insurrectionist.

You think abiding by Constitutional Law is suspending democracy?
It is when the Constitution mandates a suspension of Democracy.
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@Double_R

Does the 14th Amendment, Section 3, apply to Trump?

Yes, it applies to all Americans in equal measure. The Office of the President of the United States is both civil and military, subject to the same constitutional standards as any and all others. Likewise, Trump swore an oath to uphold the Constitution and undeniably ended up undermining that same Constitution more profoundly than any other figure in human history. No single individual has done more structural and reputational harm to the foundational document of the United States of America than Trump. No honest historian would disagree. Certainly, MAGA, by word and deed, is a far greater enemy of the full text and meaning of the US Constitution than the Confederacy ever could be, and therefore more deserving of sanction than the Confederacy, which inspired these protections from charismatic traitors.

Did Donald Trump engage in insurrection or provide aid and comfort to the enemies thereof?

Here is Trump's only official on-the-record description of January 6th: “I would like to begin by addressing the heinous attack on the United States Capitol,” he said. “Like all Americans, I am outraged by the violence, lawlessness, and mayhem. I immediately deployed the National Guard and federal law enforcement to secure the building and expel the intruders.” (The Post’s Philip Rucker reports that this is not true.) “America is, and must always be, a nation of law and order. The demonstrators who infiltrated the Capitol have defiled the seat of American democracy. And most Americans agree with Trump's official assessment as a terrible crime against American democracy.
What then do we do with the subsequent information that the Proud Boys, whom Trump called upon to "stand by," led the attack, were instrumental in penetrating the House and Senate's key defenses at the moment of the official recognition of Biden as the winner, and had their legal fees mostly paid for by Trump's lawyer Sydney Powell and a few Trump PACs? Trump paid the legal fees for the very criminals he condemns as defilers of America. This is a matter of public record and an indisputable fact. Those Proud Boys maintained three significant caches of weapons just outside of the District of Columbia. When Trump was told that many of his rallyers came armed with long guns, Trump wanted the guns brought past security. "They're not here to hurt me." Trump's own words indict him: Trump knew why the men with long guns were there. Trump knew who the men were here to hurt. What do we do with the knowledge that, in the moment of the "heinous attack," Trump was desperate to be entering the Capitol, desperate to be striding into the House of Representatives shoulder to shoulder with the QAnon Shaman mob and was only prevented by a Secret Service desperately evacuating the Vice President from that same mob? Since Trump's official assessment of January 6th is a heinous attack and we now know that Trump tried to lead that attack and knew that the attack was armed for a coup, and even now, Trump supports those attackers with fundraisers and PAC payoffs. We must conclude that even now, Trump provides ongoing aid and comfort to the very convicted attackers he officially condemns.

Who and by what process is this decision made?
Well, I agree that Congress has the constitutional authority (and so, perhaps, the responsibility) to enforce any prohibition against traitors running for federal office. I think a legal criminal conviction of insurrection or similar treason likewise automatically disqualifies any officer so sworn. In spite of one Congressional finding and two findings by Justices of civil courts, I do not think that the question of Trump's insurrection has yet met the standard of "proven" guilty, whatever my personal convictions. Perhaps the most obvious way to make this decision is also the most traditional. Let the dumb bastard run. Taking Trump out before November only strengthens his claims of persecution. Left alone, democracy's rebuke can reinforce Trump's eventual  conviction.