Mini arguments for God's existence

Author: Fallaneze ,

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  • Fallaneze
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    Fallaneze

    God is defined as a fundamental consciousness.

    (A) it is true that a fundamental consciousness exists or (B) it is not true that a fundamental consciousness exists.

    Here are some of my condensed arguments to support God's existence:

    The first cause argument:

    The universe began to exist.
    The beginning of the universe is explained by (1) chance, (2) physical law, or (3) free will.
    Both (1) and (2) entail that the big bang was inevitable, because by counting backwards the number of trials leading up to the big bang, the event has a quantifiable beginning. Both (1) and (2) entail an infinite chain of preceding events, which is impossible. Therefore, the Big Bang was caused by (3) free will, meaning that the event was not inevitable and therefore doesn't succumb to the quantification problem. The only plausible candidate for something possessing free will is consciousness.

    The universe began to exist.
    The physical universe expanded from a zero-dimensional point at which all laws in the universe were broken down. The best explanation for this singularity is something non-physical that also possesses causal power. The only plausible candidate for this is consciousness.

    The universe is fine-tuned (scientific consensus).
    The fine-tunedness is either by design or not by design.
    The fine-tunedness is more consistent with design.
    Something non-conscious cannot design anything, so the only plausible candidate for this is consciousness.

    If our internal organs have a purpose, God exists.
    Our internal organs have a purpose.
    Therefore, God exists. 

    Without God, evolution is just a mindless process that has no aims or goals. You would need (1) intent (to reach the goal) and (2) knowledge (of the goal itself). Any prescribed function for our internal organs is predicated on goals.

    The universe indicates a designing mind or it does not. A designing mind is indicated by attributes only found in consciousness such as beauty, rationality, intelligibility, creativity, and purpose. The universe exhibits these qualities. Therefore, the universe indicates a designing mind. If the universe has a designing mind, God exists.

    Either moral realism is true or moral realism is not true.
    Moral realism is true.
    The only way moral realism could be true is if humanity has inherent ends. The only way humanity could have inherent ends is if they were imbued by an external consciousness. 

    Near death experiences of God are considered dying declarations.
    Dying declarations are admissible evidence in court.
    The weight of evidence on this issue is in favor of God's existence.

    The laws of logic are abstract, invariant, and universal. 
    Since the laws of logic consists of conceptual truths, it must correspond with an abstract, invariant, and universal consciousness.
  • Mopac
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    I dispute the definition of God as "fundamental consciousness"

    Not because God isn't that, but because God is Ousia, not a quality of being like consciousness.


    Oxford uses "Supreme Being"

    Merriam-webster uses "Ultimate Reality"


    Both of those definitions work in Orthodox Theology.


  • mustardness
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    --> @Fallaneze
    The universe began to exist.
    You will never have any rational, logical common  sense to offer humanity as long as you follow this above premise.

    For  me I go to what I believe is the root/core of Space and Time { (><)(><) i.e inversions >< from peak of Gravitational Space (> and Dark Energy Space  <).

    Those root/core tori interfere with each other and create more complex geometric patterns fermions and bosons and eventually complex human consciousness with metaphysical-1,  ego (>*<)  i  {>*<)

     I believe the source of big bang { WOW! } is a degree of interference of tori where before there was mininmal interference now there was and interference of  two or more toroids.  Maybe it was a syntropic aligning of a multitude of Space - Time tori tfhat had previously reached a point of maximum entropic non interference.


  • IlDiavolo
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    As soon as I saw the phrase "fundamental conciousness" I stopped reading.

    Religions define God as a powerful, omnipresent, and ubiquitous being which seems to be something pulled out from a fairy tale.

    Il Diavolo
  • disgusted
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    --> @Mopac
    Of course you would, they are contradictory so why not.
  • disgusted
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    --> @Fallaneze
    God is defined as a fundamental consciousness.
    Defined by whom?

  • Mopac
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    Defined by whom?

    The OP, but also new age chakra wigglers.

  • disgusted
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    --> @Mopac
    How would you know? The OP doesn't make that claim.
  • Goldtop
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    --> @Fallaneze
    Mini arguments for God's existence
    This thread is more like gish gallop.

    As the logic flows through each gish, it builds on a series of false premises, equivocation or fallacy whereupon it leaps a great distance to erroneous conclusion.
  • Castin
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    --> @Fallaneze
    The universe is fine-tuned (scientific consensus).
    This is the only one I find compelling to any degree. It really is uncanny. But it's been rebutted by arguments such as the anthropic principle.

  • keithprosser
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    --> @Castin
    I'd agree with that.

    The other thing I think we atheists don't like to admit as problematical is the sheer complexity of even the simplest living thing, or of a single cell. 

    Darwinism is great, but natural selection can't kick in until you have already established reproduction.  The way DNA is translated into proteins isn't a simple chemical reaction but an intricate 'mechanical' process with moving parts such as ribosomes that 'click along' DNA strand 3 bases at a time...

    Of course I don't think any god's were involved, but if you think it's absurd you probably don't know much about the internals of cells!

  • Stephen
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    --> @keithprosser
    Darwinism is great, but natural selection can't kick in until you have already established reproduction

    Are you stating a fact there? And what do you actually mean in this case by "reproduction" ? 

  • keithprosser
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    --> @Stephen
    I believe it to be a fact.

    Natural selection is the principle that offspring show variation and it is the 'fitter' offspring that are 'naturally selected' to survive and go on to have offspring themselves.   Unless reproduction is occurring there are no offspring for natural selection to operate on.

    (Natural selection is contrasted with artificial selection which is the practice of human plant and animal breeders to select which individuals to breed from.  In natural selection it is nature, not man, that does the selecting.)
  • Stephen
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    Unless reproduction is occurring there are no offspring for natural selection to operate on.

    This is obviously true. I asked because when one speaks of "reproduction" or the "act of", one automatically thinks intercourse and or copulation  to cause "reproduction" and in turn this may cause a  variant in selection.

    Your statement caused Parthenogenesis to spring to mind. This, you may be aware means development of an embryo from an unfertilized egg. Species that develop this way  include fish, amphibians, reptiles and some birds, I believe.
    Interesting then that fish gave rise to amphibians that gave rise to reptiles that gave rise to birds, from what may have been an unfertilized egg, don't you think.?
  • keithprosser
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    when one speaks of "reproduction" or the "act of", one automatically thinks intercourse and or copulation
    I must have gotten old because I didn't automtically think about intercourse and copulation... once upon a time I thought of little else!

    I think sexual reproduction must really speed up evolution.  An asexual species could only evolve by a long series of one-at-time-mutations, but a sexual species can harbour many mutations in different individuals which get 'mix-and-matched'.  Its the difference between 'serial' and 'parallel'. 

    That said, it's not settled why sex exists.


  • Stephen
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    --> @keithprosser
    That said, it's not settled why sex exists.

    Well the Sumerians have spoke of this and so does the bible. Without trawling through old papers and volumes of other material , it was to do with the first  human " pairs"  being incompatible. But once they had "mixed the essence of the gods" with THE AdamA, they became compatible and able to reproduce on their own at [free] will and much quicker and stronger than the "gods" could produce them for themselves. 

    Maybe I should save that for a thread of its own.
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Stephen
    Ah, I see this is the religion forum, not science!  I don't think I want to say much about the theology of sex.

  • Stephen
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    --> @keithprosser

    Ah, I see this is the religion forum, not science!  I don't think I want to say much about the theology of sex.

    It is, as the title suggests -  Mini arguments for God's existence  -  and you mentioned "reproduction and offspring" which amounts to sex, theological or not.




  • disgusted
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    --> @Castin
    The universe is so fine tuned that 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of it is fatal to humans. We must be so damned lucky for that fine tuning. In excess of 75% of the surface of our planet is fatal to humans.
    The fine tuning argument was created by a comedian.
  • keithprosser
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    The universe is so fine tuned that 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of it is fatal to humans.
    However little of the universe is suitable for life, some of it is.  Maybe it didn't have to be.  Perhaps there doesn't have to be a universe at all, but I find it really hard to get my head around there being nothing at all, ie not even a void but nothing.

    But I see fine-tuning less an argument for god as an open question as to how the values of the physical constants got set.  We won't know that for a long time.


  • Castin
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    --> @disgusted
    The universe is so fine tuned that 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% of it is fatal to humans. We must be so damned lucky for that fine tuning. In excess of 75% of the surface of our planet is fatal to humans.
    The fine tuning argument was created by a comedian.
    The fine-tuning of the universe refers to life, not human life.

    You're thinking like a human biologist, not a physicist. Well, I think your instinct is to sneer at anything that appears to challenge your presuppositions, so perhaps it's unfair to say that you're thinking like a scientist at all.

    The evidence for fine-tuning is well documented. It may seem like the universe is hostile to human life, and in a real sense it is, but one must take a step back and consider that if certain forces in the universe had varied just a little bit in either direction -- if some god had just blown a stray breath on the cosmic scales -- carbon would never have been created at all, stars would never have formed or exploded to create the critical elements, and the very structure of the atom itself would not be able to hold together so neatly.

  • disgusted
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    --> @Castin
    The fine-tuning of the universe refers to life, not human life.
    Wrong, godists always mean human life.

  • disgusted
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    --> @Castin
    and in a real sense it is
    But here is some meaningless apologetic where we are encouraged to consider that if the dog hadn't stopped for a shit we could have had rabbit for supper. I wonder if anyone can make these arguments from within a universe that doesn't support human life? The hole fits the puddle perfectly.

  • Goldtop
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    The so called fine tuning argument fails on so many levels, the hole and puddle a common one. Another simple one is the universe itself and what it consisted of shortly after the Big Bang; an ocean of electromagnetic radiation. So please, go on to tell me how an ocean of electromagnetic radiation is fine tuned?
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Goldtop
    Well, tell me how an ocean of radiation crystalises into particles and forces just right to produce conscious life!   Most combinations of constants wouldn't produce stable atoms, let alone conscious entities.