Dr. Huemer AMA Responses

Author: Savant

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Huemer got back to me. The questions I sent are in bold, followed by Huemer's reponses in plaintext.

1. In many common conceptions of an anarcho-capitalist society, people can act collectively if they choose to do so. They can create a community and agree on rules. They can pass that land to their kids under the condition that their kids follow those same rules. What is the difference between doing that on a micro-scale with a neighborhood and just at a nation-state level?

I am unsure what you mean by "the difference". Is the question about important differences between HOA's and governments?

HOA's are a real phenomenon, which has actually arisen voluntarily. Nation-sized HOA's, however, have not voluntarily arisen, nor is there any plausible way that that would happen. So that is one difference between HOA's and national governments.

Another interesting difference is that real HOA's face meaningful competition. If a person does not like the rules of one HOA, it is very easy to avoid that HOA and live in another neighborhood or housing complex. This does not require leaving behind one's family, friends, job, and culture; learning a new language; or getting the permission of some other nation-state. This makes competition among HOAs much more meaningful than competition among national governments.

I am not sure, but I think the question may have been suggesting that the people in one generation can create rules that restrict the use of their land for all future generations. I think this is not legitimate. I think any future generation would be free to alter the rules of the HOA or even to abolish the HOA, and earlier generations cannot do anything to prevent this.

2. What should (not does but should) stop individuals from committing crimes?

Every individual should voluntarily respect the rights of others due to their understanding of morality. However, if (as is the case in all known societies) some individuals refuse to respect the rights of others, then someone else (such as private protection agencies) should deploy force to stop the rights-violators. 

3. If someone got sick from a meal or beverage, as it had different ingredients from what was displayed in the packaging, how (other than virtue signaling and boycotting) could they achieve retribution and deter companies from continuing this practice?

The individual could bring a lawsuit against the manufacturer. The plaintiff and the defendant would go to one of the private arbitration firms to have their dispute resolved. The private justice system is described at greater length in chapter 11 of The Problem of Political Authorityhttps://www.amazon.com/dp/1137281650/.

However, in real capitalist societies, lawsuits over product disputes are very rare, because companies almost always resolve customer complaints satisfactorily without a lawsuit (also because lawsuits in the current system are extremely expensive). I have virtually never had a company refuse to fix a problem. Indeed, empirically, companies bend over backwards to accommodate even unreasonable customer demands.

This particular scenario is also particularly improbable. Companies do not generally poison their customers. No business plan starts with, "Step 1: Feed our customers stuff that makes them vomit..."

4. Any given community would presumably have disputes with other communities, not only with lowlife criminals and small terrorist groups. So you'd need a standing army to defend your community, unless you first eradicated war entirely, which somehow sounds far more implausible than even anancap. Now then, having standing armies around, or else be occupied by the standing armies of other communities, what is going to prevent them from ending the anarchy by pulling out a little something called a military coup for their own benefit?

I have never had a dispute with another community. I have lived in several different neighborhoods in my life. None of them has ever had a dispute with another neighborhood. I am not sure what sort of dispute this question is imagining. However, if your HOA somehow has a dispute with another HOA, they would resolve that by going to arbitration, just as in the case of any other dispute. They would not raise an army and declare a war. If my HOA board somehow gets filled with crazy people and declares that we're going to attack the condominium building across the street, I am not joining that war. And neither, I believe, will any of my neighbors.

5. What are your thoughts on the brain drain that occurs by America stealing all of the brightest minds out of 3rd world locations? For example, if Javier Milie and his supporters had immigrated to the United States, they would currently not be in Argentina fixing their society.

Human beings own their own brains, and they have their own lives to live. They are not resources at the disposal of other people. You can't force someone to live somewhere they don't want to be just so that the people there can extract value from them. That's a form of slavery.

It's also extremely harmful to the world. If Sergei Brin had been forced to spend his life in Russia, Google would not exist. He would not have somehow overthrown Putin and converted Russia into a liberal, capitalist democracy; his life would just have been wasted. Of course, Brin is an outlier in terms of talent. But the qualitative point applies widely: the overwhelming majority of people can realize their potential vastly better in a society such as the U.S. than they can in a Third World nation. In some cases, the amount of value one can produce may be thousands of times greater.

6. How do asymmetric regimes affect the immigration issue? For example, the WTO makes free trade largely reciprocal and limits the scope of trade wars between member states. But there's no agreement of this kind for immigration. If Country A restricts the flow of migrants from Country B, is it acceptable for Country B to have an equivalent policy toward citizens of Country A?

If you learn that one of your neighbors recently beat up one of the neighborhood kids, is it okay for you to beat up another kid, in order to achieve symmetry? No; two wrongs don't make a right. If country A commits a rights-violation, this is not fixed by country B committing another rights violation against someone else.

In reality, immigration pressure between pairs of countries is mostly one-directional. It barely matters if Mexico prohibits Americans from migrating to Mexico, because hardly anyone would want to do so. It's still a rights-violation, but a relatively small one.

Taking into account, in addition, that immigration benefits the receiving country, the question is a little bit like: "If my neighbor shoots himself in the foot, should I shoot myself in the foot too?"

7. In regards to laws regarding immigration, there's been talks I've heard of a wall around the borders to strengthen that security just like having a fence up around perhaps your residential property in the name of security, why does this not suffice as an ethical justification?

Anyone may put a fence around their own property. But they may not put a fence around other people's property. Donald Trump doesn't own America, nor do the 535 clowns in Congress, nor does the government. So they may not put a fence around it. In general, you can choose not to interact with some group of people if you don't want to, but you cannot declare that no one else in your society may do so.

It seems, by the way, that many people are unaware that there is already fencing along the U.S.-Mexico border, across all of the likely crossing points. That was built during the Bush administration, long ago.

8. Since 2019, literally all employment growth has gone to immigrants. Is this evidence that immigration reduces employment and saturates the US economy?

Oh no! Immigrants are doing productive work to support themselves? At the same time, more native-born Americans are sitting around in their parents' basements watching porn? Clearly this shows how diabolical the immigrants are. 

In seriousness, no, there is no phenomenon of "saturating" an economy. There isn't a maximum amount of work that can be done; the amount of work increases with the population. That's why, when the population doubles, you don't wind up with 50% unemployment.

Concerns about employment are particularly misplaced at a time (like now) when the unemployment rate is within half a point of the lowest it has been in the last 70 years
Granted, the people who just decided that they don't want to work aren't included (you have to be seeking work to count as "unemployed"). But if Americans don't want to work, that's hardly the fault of immigrants.

9. The universe: chance or purpose?

No one knows why the universe is here or why the Big Bang happened. If it has a purpose, that purpose isn't apparent (it doesn't act as if it has any purpose that we can discern), but that doesn't show that it doesn't have one.

It probably isn't merely chance, though. That is, there is probably some good explanation of why the universe is here, whether or not that involves someone's purpose.

10. I have seen your list of favorite bible verses. Do you have any favorite Quran verses you would like to share as well?

Here are three scary Quran quotes:
Sura 4:34: "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
5:38: "As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise."
9:5: "And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush."

11. What are your views on Uncle Ted (Kaczynski) being seen as a folk hero by many?

That shows the insanity of our culture.

12. Could animals be philosophical zombies? If possible, could this be used as an ethical justification for eating meat?

You can't conclusively prove that animals are conscious, so it's theoretically possible that they are zombies. You also can't conclusively prove that any other people are conscious, so it's theoretically possible that other people are zombies too. But this theoretical possibility doesn't make it morally permissible to torture a person; nor does it make it permissible to torture an animal.

13. You have argued that many current government restrictions, such as gun control, are unjustified. Many people on our platform would like to debate with you on this to understand your positions better. Would you be interested in a text-based debate on our platform with one of our top users? I understand that you are very busy and have many commitments, so we could set the time for each argument to 1 or 2 weeks so that there is less time pressure.

I'd rather not, as I feel that I've done enough for now.
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Responses are in!
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Lmao corrupt private profit driven firms adjudicate all law and lawsuits. What a disgusting society.
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Profit driven corporations deciding who gets protected and who gets punished. Nothing disgusting or wrong about that...

Facepalm.
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His ideal society is just a gangster's paradise, exactly as I already knew.
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Apologize for the questions I wasn't able to get to, but a dozen is a lot and I didn't want to scare him off.
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What was his favorite color
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@RationalMadman
Which was your question?
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2 and 3. Savant must have censored my question 2.
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@Savant
Thanks although your boy missed the point.
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The more "educated" you are, the dumber and less common sense you have.
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Well, I thank the doctor for responding. His answers were both well-reasoned and easy for a layperson to understand.
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They were the latter only.
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Profit driven corporations deciding who gets protected and who gets punished. Nothing disgusting or wrong about that...
Well, you got the answer to your questions.

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It was nice of him to give us answers, and I do hope he comes to the site or at least mentions it to people.
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Yep, I wonder what shills like Bones can do now that Huemer exposed it for being the sociopathic society Is aid it was XD.

Gone real quiet.
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RM,

Well, its either the rule of private buisnesses or the rule of government.
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I know which I prefer. You can have both at once though, it's what these rightwingers love.
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It looks like I'm late to notice this thread, and it looks like we are just asking random questions to Michael Huemer without any reference to his work.  If I'm not too late, I have a few questions for Dr. Huemer about his Ethical Intuitionism:

1) If the mind is constructive, then how do we really know what raw materials went into arriving at the moral knowledge, in the act of becoming aware of moralknowledge, how do we know that the source of this knowledge was intuitionrather than reason, or empirically derived from experience, or both. Perhaps thedifferences presented by Ethical Intuitionism are just semantic, just a differentway of looking at the issue, or maybe they are just different aspects of oneand the same process.  When knowledge presents itself to awareness, there hasusually been a lot of information processing that has occurred prior to themoment of conscious awareness.  You have talked about “how itfeels”, but I learned my multiplication tables a long time ago, now I just knowwhat 8x8 is without thinking about it, “how itfeels” is as if it is known intuitively.  How do you know intuitive moral knowledge wasn’t previously learned through experience, acculturation, learning, reasoning, etc.?  

2) If Ethical Intuitionism can be said to be revealing truth,and the individual intuitions are not consistent among different individuals,then aren’t we left with conflicting truths violating the law ofnoncontradiction.


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In fact, just to make it clear for anyone who thought I was remotely wrong in the thread before let's explore what he's really saying vs his bullshit way of wording it.

HOA = Homeowner Association AKA neighborhood  with rules (think gated especially but not just gated).

I am unsure what you mean by "the difference". Is the question about important differences between HOA's and governments?

HOA's are a real phenomenon, which has actually arisen voluntarily. Nation-sized HOA's, however, have not voluntarily arisen, nor is there any plausible way that that would happen. So that is one difference between HOA's and national governments.
This is a lie. What he means and I appreciate him admitting is that even the local council-level bylaws the HOAs enforce is antithetical to anarchical definition of 'voluntary'. To have any rules forced onto people isn't anarchy (until it is which I'll get to later).

Another interesting difference is that real HOA's face meaningful competition. If a person does not like the rules of one HOA, it is very easy to avoid that HOA and live in another neighborhood or housing complex. This does not require leaving behind one's family, friends, job, and culture; learning a new language; or getting the permission of some other nation-state. This makes competition among HOAs much more meaningful than competition among national governments.
A freedom only the wealthy enough have. It also implies his idea of staying in touch with family is long-distance by definition but that is fine as many define it that way (though it's a sign of a sociopathic way of seeing things, I don't disagree with it as it's so mainstream in humanity to have distant relations now with Internet etc).

I am not sure, but I think the question may have been suggesting that the people in one generation can create rules that restrict the use of their land for all future generations. I think this is not legitimate. I think any future generation would be free to alter the rules of the HOA or even to abolish the HOA, and earlier generations cannot do anything to prevent this.
Which is why it's going to just be whatever the strongest or those paying the strongest make the rules to become with each generation.

2. What should (not does but should) stop individuals from committing crimes?

Every individual should voluntarily respect the rights of others due to their understanding of morality. However, if (as is the case in all known societies) some individuals refuse to respect the rights of others, then someone else (such as private protection agencies) should deploy force to stop the rights-violators. 
Translation: those that can afford it get protection against any and all abuse (in fact against anything they deem abuse making it malicious to enforce not only to not enforce). They hire thugs to do their bidding, the thugs do it as hired as private enforcers (or worse, mercenaries) and do what they're told if they want money to keep rolling in.


3. If someone got sick from a meal or beverage, as it had different ingredients from what was displayed in the packaging, how (other than virtue signaling and boycotting) could they achieve retribution and deter companies from continuing this practice?

The individual could bring a lawsuit against the manufacturer. The plaintiff and the defendant would go to one of the private arbitration firms to have their dispute resolved. The private justice system is described at greater length in chapter 11 of The Problem of Political Authorityhttps://www.amazon.com/dp/1137281650/.
See above for translation.
However, in real capitalist societies, lawsuits over product disputes are very rare, because companies almost always resolve customer complaints satisfactorily without a lawsuit (also because lawsuits in the current system are extremely expensive). I have virtually never had a company refuse to fix a problem. Indeed, empirically, companies bend over backwards to accommodate even unreasonable customer demands.
'real capitalist societies' aren't anarchic. Thus, the fear of being ripped to shreds by a valid lawsuit that overtime has proven to hold water even if the plaintiffs are poor, thanks to left-wing movements bit by bit chipping away at the ability of 'hush money' to totally shut down such cases and exposure of blackmail illuminati type killings to silence the frontrunners etc, it's become difficult in these 'real capitalist societies' to abuse the Capitalism to the extent ancap would allow. Thus it's a fruitless endeavour to compare any 'norms' in that sense to what would happen under anarchocapitalism.

This particular scenario is also particularly improbable. Companies do not generally poison their customers. No business plan starts with, "Step 1: Feed our customers stuff that makes them vomit..."
That's because they fear the enforcement of non-anarchic rule of law.

I have never had a dispute with another community. I have lived in several different neighborhoods in my life. None of them has ever had a dispute with another neighborhood. I am not sure what sort of dispute this question is imagining. However, if your HOA somehow has a dispute with another HOA, they would resolve that by going to arbitration, just as in the case of any other dispute. They would not raise an army and declare a war. If my HOA board somehow gets filled with crazy people and declares that we're going to attack the condominium building across the street, I am not joining that war. And neither, I believe, will any of my neighbors.
That's not surprising to me. This guy doesn't know the first thing about gangster rivalries that run actual anarchocapitalistic ways of life yet he preaches their way of life as some abstract PhD bullshit type thing.

Human beings own their own brains, and they have their own lives to live. They are not resources at the disposal of other people. You can't force someone to live somewhere they don't want to be just so that the people there can extract value from them. That's a form of slavery.
You can force it more than ever in a society where beating the shit out of people too poor to hire cops and 'law' (there's no law) protection can't fight back. Try again.

It's also extremely harmful to the world. If Sergei Brin had been forced to spend his life in Russia, Google would not exist. He would not have somehow overthrown Putin and converted Russia into a liberal, capitalist democracy; his life would just have been wasted. Of course, Brin is an outlier in terms of talent. But the qualitative point applies widely: the overwhelming majority of people can realize their potential vastly better in a society such as the U.S. than they can in a Third World nation. In some cases, the amount of value one can produce may be thousands of times greater.
I can turn this so badly onto him. If nobody was forced under conditions they didn't want to be in then in contrast to this propaganda, you'd find actually far less rebellions or fights for freedom succeed as those most seeking of it just run away. However, I think what he's missing is what I said before; ancap doesn't increase your options, it enslaves all the poor and/or weak instantaneously by removing the apparatus that make the richer and/or stronger afraid to abuse them.

If you learn that one of your neighbors recently beat up one of the neighborhood kids, is it okay for you to beat up another kid, in order to achieve symmetry? No; two wrongs don't make a right. If country A commits a rights-violation, this is not fixed by country B committing another rights violation against someone else.
This completely avoids the concept of punishing country A, a clever gaslighting trick that makes you feel stupid for asking a completely valid question.
In reality, immigration pressure between pairs of countries is mostly one-directional. It barely matters if Mexico prohibits Americans from migrating to Mexico, because hardly anyone would want to do so. It's still a rights-violation, but a relatively small one.
I mean... Okay. Not relevant to the Ancap migration restrictions.

Taking into account, in addition, that immigration benefits the receiving country, the question is a little bit like: "If my neighbor shoots himself in the foot, should I shoot myself in the foot too?"
If enough people migrate into Ancap societies, they can, will and throughout the entire Earth historically have stopped it being Anarchic first, not necessarily selfish and capitalistic. This is because humans, being the most intelligent animal, realise the problem with letting brutes abuse weaker people without 0 restriction. That's not optimal.

I think I replied to enough to clarify.
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@Savant
Another interesting difference is that real HOA's face meaningful competition. If a person does not like the rules of one HOA, it is very easy to avoid that HOA and live in another neighborhood or housing complex. This does not require leaving behind one's family, friends, job, and culture; learning a new language; or getting the permission of some other nation-state. This makes competition among HOAs much more meaningful than competition among national governments.
It is true that HOAs are easier to escape than nations, but that does not mean they are escaped easily enough.

I think what the original question was aiming at, and what I would aim at is this: Just because volunteerism is morally superior does not mean that everything which is voluntary is effective and just.

People will from time to time accumulate gambling debt and then try to sell their kids into slavery. An HOA at it's worse is as detrimental to a person's life as a communist government even though people 'consented' by moving into the neighborhood.

Here I would say we can have the best of both worlds. We can have a voluntary society, but we need to be keenly aware of the dangers of corruption, fraud, and dishonestly obtained "consent" (not really consent). For example we must not discard the attitude of the liberal revolutionaries of the late 18th and early 19th century insofar as we actively try to engineer legal systems to bias the society towards honesty and justice.

I think HOAs are an excellent case study in what we must not try to scale up. In other words "sign here to sell your soul" buried in the fine print is hardly an improvement over government coercion. That is not real consent.


I am not sure, but I think the question may have been suggesting that the people in one generation can create rules that restrict the use of their land for all future generations. I think this is not legitimate. I think any future generation would be free to alter the rules of the HOA or even to abolish the HOA, and earlier generations cannot do anything to prevent this.
This is exactly what I am talking about. There is (from the principle of consent alone) nothing stopping an HOA charter from binding future houseowners.

... but we can see the problem as can Dr. Huemer. If the only legitimate HOAs are democratic and allow for alteration of the rules (including abolishment) that is a principle of government, one that has been discovered to be useful already.

Where one principle is useful, others are as well. Why not take the moral reasoning which created volunteerism and use it to craft a constitution not as giver of authority but a blueprint for legitimate government. If for no other reason than to help people recognize the emergence of tyranny this would be better.


Indeed, empirically, companies bend over backwards to accommodate even unreasonable customer demands.
This is true of legitimate businesses that value their reputation.


I am not joining that war. And neither, I believe, will any of my neighbors.
They may not need you to attack. If you've been paying fees assuming they were sane they could use that money to hire mercenaries.

This all works out when these arbitration firms are the only plausible option, but in order for that to be the case arbitration firms need to be powerful, trustworthy, and not at each other's throats... kind of like a government ought to be.


Taking into account, in addition, that immigration benefits the receiving country
It benefits it when rational & moral people move for rational causes. A swarm of destitute people with no skills showing up because they were lied to about the streets being paved for gold is not a net benefit on any scale.

Yes it eventually works out, people adapt; but that does not mean an alternative history where that migration didn't occur wouldn't have been better.


In seriousness, no, there is no phenomenon of "saturating" an economy. There isn't a maximum amount of work that can be done; the amount of work increases with the population.
The desire for goods and services scales with population, but production may not. The most obvious example would be a shift in the ratio between mechanized means of production and population.

Production becomes less efficient per capita and the quality of life goes down. Demand is a two factor variable: It isn't just people wanting something, it's people having something to trade for it as well.


Granted, the people who just decided that they don't want to work aren't included
That's not a small concession that renders the "statistic" meaningless.


But if Americans don't want to work, that's hardly the fault of immigrants.
There is a difference between fault and causation. A toddler with a gun may not be at fault, but the bullet still kills.

We don't need to condemn the toddler to lock up the gun.


You can't conclusively prove that animals are conscious, so it's theoretically possible that they are zombies. You also can't conclusively prove that any other people are conscious, so it's theoretically possible that other people are zombies too. But this theoretical possibility doesn't make it morally permissible to torture a person; nor does it make it permissible to torture an animal.
These statements are entirely true, but not exactly an answer.

He says what you can't conclude, not what you can. If I were to answer this question I would start out by observing the enormous overlap in biological function (due in my opinion to common ancestry).

As Jordon Peterson has pointed out. In that context, anthropomorphism is the simplest explanation for similar behaviors or intuitive understanding of their behavior.
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I think what the original question was aiming at, and what I would aim at is this: Just because volunteerism is morally superior does not mean that everything which is voluntary is effective and just.
Voluntary systems have their advantages and disadvantages, obviously.
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Don't you have a greater east asian co-prosperity sphere to work on?
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I simply believe in Imperialism because it always wins and is much more fun than any other system because it is based on conquering the world, attacking and building greatness, but one can also give attention to other ideas, such as voluntary systems, if for nothing then at least for the sake of attacking those who oppose voluntary systems or attacking ideas and counter ideas to build greater knowledge.
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I will admit @RM you were actually completely right about Huemer not being able to properly respond to our questions. I found Dr. Huemers answers profoundly unsatisfying:

4. Any given community would presumably have disputes with other communities, not only with lowlife criminals and small terrorist groups. So you'd need a standing army to defend your community, unless you first eradicated war entirely, which somehow sounds far more implausible than even anancap. Now then, having standing armies around, or else be occupied by the standing armies of other communities, what is going to prevent them from ending the anarchy by pulling out a little something called a military coup for their own benefit?

I have never had a dispute with another community. I have lived in several different neighborhoods in my life. None of them has ever had a dispute with another neighborhood. I am not sure what sort of dispute this question is imagining. However, if your HOA somehow has a dispute with another HOA, they would resolve that by going to arbitration, just as in the case of any other dispute. They would not raise an army and declare a war. If my HOA board somehow gets filled with crazy people and declares that we're going to attack the condominium building across the street, I am not joining that war. And neither, I believe, will any of my neighbors.
Just because Huemer himself cannot personally remember any of his own communities going to war, or imagine such a scenario, is a very poor rebuttal anyways. My question literally adresses the possibility of this kind of rebuttal: "You'd need a standing army, unless you first eradicate war entirely, which somehow sounds far more implausible" which he apparently ignored entirely. So he failed to even acknowledge my valid concern that this ancap peace is hard to believe would be sustainable or achievable.

His premise that HOA's don't get into armed conflicts with each other is a moot point anyways, given that he himself admitted that they have never existed on a large scale. The reason HOA's don't get into armed conflict is rather obvious, they have nothing to fight over. Violent conflict is not going to attract more homeowners, nor is increasing the number of homeowners necesarily beneficial. Real armed conflicts happen between groups that have conflicting interests that, crucially, are enforcable through violence. So even if every function of society was divided up to HOA siced communities, those that relate to resources worth fighting over are definitely going to fight. RationalMadman pointed out that armed disputed between city or even district level communities happen all the time, they are called gang wars, so this optimism from Huemer about anarcho-capitalism being stable is entirely unwaranted and historically unprecedented.

But he also claimed that communities in conflict would just get arbitration firms. Somebody else raised the good objection that this won't work because you can't have a market of courts. Both parties would always try to cherry pick the courts that are most likely to vote in their favor, either because of historically proven bias or because they are easily manipulated or bribed. Getting two parties to even sign up for a private trial, much less accept and abide by their rulings, would be a herculean task. Especially when you are talking about poor individuals wronged by a powerfull corporation. All of this is assuming that corporations stay excactly as weak as they are today. But they will definitely grow more powerfull because of lack of antitrust laws and there being a market rather than state monopoly of well-trained violence groups. A court that controls the police is basically a state. But on the other hand, a private court whith no controll of police is totally teethless, as it cannot enforce its rulings, and any rich corporation could just pick 

A court that needs to INCENTIVISE powerfull corporations to consent to being tried and BID for police to enforce rulings, is absurdly unreliable. Here I agree 100% with RM.


Best.Korea
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Best.Korea
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RM,

I know which I prefer. You can have both at once though, it's what these rightwingers love.
Usually, the empire is supposed to favor some anarchy as it reduces the cost of government.

Government services such as prisons, courts and police are using a lot of money and resources, so they should be abolished to restore proper and prosperous empire.