Author: janesix

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@janesix

How do you know Jesus is real?
I think Gary Habermas covered this subject fairly well in which he identified 12 points. I would add others, but they are a good starter and here they are:

1. Jesus died by crucifixion.
2. He was buried.
3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.
4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).
5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).
6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.
7. The resurrection was the central message.
8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.
9. The Church was born and grew.
10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.
11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).
12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).

To the list of twelve points above, I would add the prophecy aspect. There is good evidence that the OT or Hebrew Bible was written before the timeline of AD 30 or AD 70 (i.e., Daniel 9:24-27). The Dead Sea Scrolls establish the Hebrew Bible existed before AD 30-70, for one. 

Prophecy predicted the Messiah before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The prophecy was written in regards to a specific timeline and regarding a specific people who lived under the Old Covenant or Mosaic Law. These Mosaic laws cannot be followed after AD 70 by these people, so what was written in the NT rings true. It foretold a Messiah and eyewitnesses testify that Jesus claimed to be this Messiah. 

***

Habermas notes 17 extra-biblical sources that mention Jesus within 150 years after His death. Twelve of these sources mention His crucifixion and a few examples are cited of the above link/article. I have read his books that cite more of these sources. It lists them and gives the primary sources from history in which they can be found. I have checked out the primary sources to confirm this with many of these references.

From the same articles here are a few of those early extra-biblical mentions:

“Christus (Christ)…suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate” (Tacitus, Roman Historian, 55-120 A.D.). Tiberius was the governor.
 
“Christians…worship a man to this day…who…was crucified on that account…[They] worshipped the crucified sage…” (Lucian, famous Greek Satirist). He called him a crucified sophist.
 
“Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teachings which he had given” (Mara Bar-Serapion, Syrian Writer). He tells his own son to emulate Jesus who gave his life.
 
“Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die...His disciples…reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive” (Flavius Josephus, 38-97 A.D.). Though it is disputed, the portion about the cross is believed. He also mentions Tiberius Caesar.
 
“Jesus…was nailed to a tree” (The Gospel of Truth, a Gnostic Source). 
 
“On the whole world presented there presented a most fearful darkness…” at the time of the crucifixion of Jesus (Thallus, Samaritan).
 
“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar..” at the time of Jesus’ death (Phlegon, 80 A.D.). There was a lunar eclipse April 3, 33 AD (Julian)."

So, there are good, logical reasons to believe in the historical Person. 






 

 





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Do you have Jesus in your life? Do you experience His presence? That is what I mean by real.
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@janesix

Do you have Jesus in your life? Do you experience His presence? That is what I mean by real.
You are speaking of a personal, experiential Jesus. His words, His thoughts, His example, speak to me. I recognize myself in Christ in the sense of what He did He did for me and I accept this. I have seen His hand of providence upon my life in that when my father died and within the short space of a year, I kept running into Christians when I wasn't one. Something about their character and compassion caused me to search out a church and find out more about Him. And when I first read the NT, I read it as God speaking to me. It had a profound influence on my life. 

I trust in who He is and in what He has done. The word of God has been confirmed in me and by me. I can make sense of life and why I'm here. I believe God has been gracious to me and I am thankful. 

Having said that, I have not been given the spiritual gifts spoken of in 2 Corinthians 13. I believe those were for the start of the Christian church and ended in AD 70. 

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ok thank you
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I just want to say that Jesus loves you all.

Il Diavolo
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So, there are good, logical reasons to believe in the historical Person. 
Many atheists accept a historical human Jesus existed.   Only a minority ascribe to the 'jesus myth' theory.

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@keithprosser

So, there are good, logical reasons to believe in the historical Person. 
Many atheists accept a historical human Jesus existed.   Only a minority ascribe to the 'jesus myth' theory.
True, it does seem to be the majority of scholarly consensus. So the question becomes how this Jesus ties in with the Hebrew Bible or OT. The other fascinating thing is that what is applied to God in the OT is applied to Jesus in the NT. This can be demonstrated time and time again.  

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@keithprosser
JESUS ? a knockoff story of other established DIVINE beliefs derived from Egyptian, Roman, Greek, Sumerian ++++ many other cultures...

The difference brom the others is the MARKETING of JESUS...the obsession with global assimilation using this DIVINE BOY hoax story as
a TOOL for oppressed people to escape slavery and impoverishment...only to be enslaved again by Parasite Vampire Preachers and the 
Church Concentration Camps they created along with horrifically OPPRESSIVE Dogma the hypnotized JESUS sheeple drones must OBEY
or like their previous SLAVERS did...the CHURCH would condemn them and order their TORTURE and MURDER...= heretic executions...

Jesus is just another Character in the Chronicles of human invented "GODS" including the word "GOD" itself...which was INVENTED by a
Roman Church clown while translating the HEBREW/GREEK version into Gothic (Eastern Germanic) during 400 AD....400 years after
the ROMANS (who exploit the hell out of this boy toy of theirs) beat-whipped-and nailed this DIVINE BOY ? to a wood cross and rot...but
miraculously HE ? just got up from his dead body and left the building like ELVIS used to...JESUS has left the building and the planet !
He knew he better get away from his DADS? totally insane human creation...all they do is kill each other over DIVINE BEINGS...

The TRUTH of "GOD" is that the word represents what HAS BEEN and IS NOW continuing which is the total ABUSE and EXPLOITATION 
of weak minded humans into CULTS of OPPRESSION that hide behind the label of CHURCH and MOSQUE...

The word "GOD" a human invention is used as a TOOL....G = genius   O = of   D = deception  it's all a marketing gimmick for power and control

Jesus is marketed like football/soccer...it becomes a phenomenon with competition...= different Church spins on the boy "GOD" hoax...all PROFIT
using the JESUS spin to form CULTS ....the motivation is always PROFIT and POWER...the few control the masses of sheeple asses...

JESUS = a product = profit and fame !   just look at the Theatrical Stadium level Preachers for profit...and the hypnotized morons that flock to these
farce spectacles...it's all THEATER !  entertainment...nothing more...

JESUS the actor...the Jewish infant turned fake MESSIAH boy and executed by Rome ( the Jews demanded his death) then martyred by ROME ! 
as the new GOD along with his New Testament Bible VOMIT !    = Genius Of Deception = GOD  awesome marketing and oppression TOOL

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@WisdomofAges
Jesus is not a created being. Jesus is The Word of God by whom there was not a thing created that was created apart from.

And you are confused if you think that God only began to exist when this word you are familiar with first was pronounced. Before the word "God" as a syllable to be pronounced came into being, God was written in the hearts of all.

Or as the Tao te Ching would say, "The name that can be named is not the eternal name"

It's not a pronouncement if syllables, it is a spirit. An essence. A being.

Ousia


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The other fascinating thing is that what is applied to God in the OT is applied to Jesus in the NT.

I think very few atheists accept a human YHWH existed!  Most atheists have very little interest in theological speculation on the nature of Jesus' divinity.  In fact i would concede that many 'activistic' atheists' attitude to theology resembles a bull in china shop!   

As we have previously discussed, Christian theologians are obliged to attempt the reconciliation of the testments.   As I consider them as human documents I think they reflect the societies that produced them - which are hundreds if not thousands of years apart and very different in nature.



   
  



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@Mopac
Jesus is not a created being.

Wow, all incarnations are created beings, that is what Jesus was and how Jesus was able to incarnate into an embodiment...an incarnation of God in the flesh as all beings are it is the Source they are individualized from which has not been created. When Jesus leaves that embodiment He returns to the Father, this is true of all expressions in creation. Jesus always pointed to the "Father" out of which everything has manifested and was sent into these lower worlds to redeem man and his corrupt systems and this is possible through an incarnation....a created being taking on an embodiment. It's hilarious Jesus can claim he was one with the Creator as we all are, but when some Guru or Swami says it they are some evil heretic. Get real dude.

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@keithprosser
The Orthodox Church doesn't need to attempt the reconciliation of the two testaments. We have long since solved these things that protestant and secular west is struggling with, what with their anarchistic attitude towards everything.

The oldest protestant church has a memory that is 500 years old or so. The Orthodox Church has a thousands of years memory. We figured out these things within the first century.

And the multitude of heresies you find preached from the pulpit in the west, we identified and refuted them over a thousand years ago.


And The Orthodox Church is right because it is the very church founded by Jesus and the apostles. Every bishop and priest can trace their lineage back to the apostles. No protestant church can claim this. They are simply making things up as they go along. 

And many of their most educated are becoming Orthodox.

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Arianism is a heresy.

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@Mopac
I have to wonder how rank-and-file Christians feel about it.   There are no explicit references to Jesus is in the OT - he appears as a new born baby in the gospels - so Arianism  (the belief, not the word) is probably what most Christians worldwide accept.
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@keithprosser
Then they wouldn't really be Christians, because they are in opposition to what the church ruled at the first ecumenical council.
It is said that Mohammed got his ideas about Jesus after meeting an Arian monk. It is not really the Jesus we believe.

We Orthodox see Jesus all throughout the Old Testament because we know that Jesus is The Word of God. We don't worship a man as God, that would be an obvious error to us.
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@keithprosser

The other fascinating thing is that what is applied to God in the OT is applied to Jesus in the NT.

I think very few atheists accept a human YHWH existed!  Most atheists have very little interest in theological speculation on the nature of Jesus' divinity.  In fact i would concede that many 'activistic' atheists' attitude to theology resembles a bull in china shop!   
That's understandable or else they would not be atheists.



As we have previously discussed, Christian theologians are obliged to attempt the reconciliation of the testments.  
They reconcile very well. I have argued that prophecy in the Hebrew Bible or OT is fulfilled in the NT. It is a topic that most atheists seem very uncomfortable discussing as to the reasonableness of the statement. Instead, there is the charge by many that there is no evidence for God's existence.  

As I consider them as human documents I think they reflect the societies that produced them - which are hundreds if not thousands of years apart and very different in nature.

Sure, they reflect the society that they write about that is vastly different from ours. The message is the same for both theirs and ours - Acts 4:12
And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
 

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Saved from your god to spend eternity with your god, what can't you people think?
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@Mopac
We Orthodox see Jesus all throughout the Old Testament because we know that Jesus is The Word of God. We don't worship a man as God, that would be an obvious error to us.
I think that the NT's Jesus is not 'a man'.  Could a man be born of virgin, perform miracles, raise the dead and defeat death itself?  I believe that the reality  - the 'Truth' - is that Jesus was a man; but what the NT depicts is not 'a man'.
 

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@keithprosser
The reality is that the Jesus we believe in is not a man who came into existence, but The Word of God, the very Word that God spoke everything into existence through.

That being the case, to say that Jesus was just a man or a good teacher is not the same Jesus that we worship as part of The Trinity. It is not actually the same Jesus.

So the Jesus you know is not the Jesus that we believe in.



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I'm actually finding myself in agreement with ET. I'm quite shocked.
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@keithprosser
So, there are good, logical reasons to believe in the historical Person. 
Many atheists accept a historical human Jesus existed.   Only a minority ascribe to the 'jesus myth' theory.
I'm in the first group.

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@keithprosser

We Orthodox see Jesus all throughout the Old Testament because we know that Jesus is The Word of God. We don't worship a man as God, that would be an obvious error to us.
I think that the NT's Jesus is not 'a man'.  Could a man be born of virgin, perform miracles, raise the dead and defeat death itself?  I believe that the reality  - the 'Truth' - is that Jesus was a man; but what the NT depicts is not 'a man'.
The NT Jesus is most definitely a man. That teaching is present throughout. The Son is the One who becomes incarnate and is born as a man, a human.

She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

The name Jesus means Yhwh/Yahweh/God is salvation. 

For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Notice the child is born, the Son is given.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

So, within the Person of Jesus as two natures, a human and divine nature. One Person, two natures. We catch a glimpse of His divine nature throughout the NT in that what is attributed to God alone in the OT is attributed to Jesus in the NT. Furthermore, the OT is also a revelation of the Son throughout, except this revelation is done through shadows and types/typology.

A man could only be born of a virgin through the Spirit of God (i.e., a miracle). He could perform miracles because the Spirit of God filled Him and was with Him. Thus, in this way, He acted purely as a man to fulfill what God required of man/humanity. Death could not hold Him in the grave because He committed no sin. 

Abraham said, “God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” So the two of them walked on together.

That is why John the Baptist could say:

The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

His offering was pleasing to God, a pure sinless offering. 

What is more, the Old Covenant was initiated with a blood offering (i.e., Genesis 15:9-11; 17:1-4). The covenant was initiated with circumcision, which is a symbol and Sign of the covenant by the cutting away of the old (and it is a bloody process or signified by blood, not only with this but also in the atonement offerings).

In ANE (Ancient Near East) culture covenants were made with animal sacrifices, as signified various times in the OT, for instance:

Abraham took sheep and oxen and gave them to Abimelech, and the two of them made a covenant.

The same blood covenant typology is true of the New Covenant. The covenant is initiated with blood through the body of Jesus Christ, but our circumcision is one of the heart, not of the flesh. Blood signifies death (when you bleed out you die) for the life is in the blood. 


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@ Keith, continued.


Hebrews 9 clarifies the whole thought process above:

11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.” 21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages
He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

So Jesus entered into heaven on behalf of those who would believe, and since man originally sinned and still sins against God it was necessary that a MAN live a completely righteous life before God. That is something you cannot do. That is why His sacrifice is so significant. And just as earthly high priests were mediators between God and His people, so Jesus became that mediator:


For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,


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@Castin

So, there are good, logical reasons to believe in the historical Person. 
Many atheists accept a historical human Jesus existed.   Only a minority ascribe to the 'jesus myth' theory.
I'm in the first group. 

It is interesting that you say that. Do you base the evidence on the extra-biblical (external) information or both that and the biblical (internal) information?
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@EtrnlVw

Jesus is not a created being.

Wow, all incarnations are created beings, that is what Jesus was and how Jesus was able to incarnate into an embodiment...an incarnation of God in the flesh as all beings are it is the Source they are individualized from which has not been created. When Jesus leaves that embodiment He returns to the Father, this is true of all expressions in creation. Jesus always pointed to the "Father" out of which everything has manifested and was sent into these lower worlds to redeem man and his corrupt systems and this is possible through an incarnation....a created being taking on an embodiment. It's hilarious Jesus can claim he was one with the Creator as we all are, but when some Guru or Swami says it they are some evil heretic. Get real dude.
Your language is a little vague here, but I hear you saying that we are all an incarnation of God. Is that right? Not all beings are an incarnation of God in the flesh. That is a New Age teaching. Furthermore, your teaching on "we are all 'one with the Creator' is not a biblical teaching. We are separated from the Creator by our sin. That is why Jesus is of so much significance. God, the Creator, becomes human. You are not God, and you do not have the power of God. So, when you speak of Jesus you speak of the Person revealed in the Bible and you must represent Him as He is revealed there or you misrepresent Him. 

For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

The NT apostles guarded the message with their lives and were against false teaching they encountered, 

Galatians 1:I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

So, I go to the primary source in establishing who Jesus is. Now, where do you go?





 

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@PGA2.0
So, there are good, logical reasons to believe in the historical Person. 
Many atheists accept a historical human Jesus existed.   Only a minority ascribe to the 'jesus myth' theory.
I'm in the first group. 

It is interesting that you say that. Do you base the evidence on the extra-biblical (external) information or both that and the biblical (internal) information?
Extra-biblical.

There's not much I take from the Bible itself except "probably inspired by a real person".

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@PGA2.0
Were I to write a dictionary I would not put 'can perform miracles' in the definition of 'man', I would put in it the definition of 'god'.
 

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@Castin
So, there are good, logical reasons to believe in the historical Person. 
Many atheists accept a historical human Jesus existed.   Only a minority ascribe to the 'jesus myth' theory.
I'm in the first group. 

It is interesting that you say that. Do you base the evidence on the extra-biblical (external) information or both that and the biblical (internal) information?
Extra-biblical. 

There's not much I take from the Bible itself except "probably inspired by a real person". 
There were around 44 different authors, written over 1500 years, with the same themes throughout. 




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@keithprosser
Were I to write a dictionary I would not put 'can perform miracles' in the definition of 'man', I would put in it the definition of 'god'.
The Person of Jesus has two natures, human and divine, yet He did not use His divine nature while on earth. He lived completely in His human capacity yet was filled with the Holy Spirit, as were the disciples who also did miracles. So the miracles came from God the Spirit.