Abortion

Author: TheUnderdog

Posts

Total: 31
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 3,755
3
4
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
4
10
Premise 1: Abortion should be legal at least if the pregnancy is a risk to the mother’s life.

Premise 2: Every single pregnancy is a risk to the mother’s life (even if the risk of death is .0001%).

Conclusion 1: Because every pregnancy is a risk to the mother’s life, abortion should be unconditionally legal all the way until the moment of birth.

Please tell me where my logic is wrong if you disagree with my conclusion.
Savant
Savant's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 1,110
3
7
6
Savant's avatar
Savant
3
7
6
-->
@TheUnderdog
I think most pro-life people would disagree with P1 as written. Change it to "abortion should be legal at least if the pregnancy is a significant risk to the mother’s life." Pro-life people might have different opinions on what "significant" means. Most would probably set the cutoff around 50%.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,720
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Savant
Almost every pregnancy past 24 weeks doesn't have to end with an abortion to save a mother's life. In many cases, it's safer for both to deliver a preemie instead of surgically chopping and suctioning the bits out. However, there should be no laws restricting preemie births for at risk women. Carrying to full term is riskier for both.
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 3,755
3
4
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
4
10
-->
@Savant
If that's the case, then lets say a woman is pregnant and there is a 45% chance the woman dies without an abortion.

Should she be allowed to get an abortion?

I don't know how a pro lifer can answer no to that.

At that point, it's no longer, "Pro life" as much as it is, "Pro Zygote life, and if the woman dies, then so be it as long as the odds are under 50%".

They should just change their name to, "Pro Zygote" if they are willing to give a woman a 45% chance at death to save a zygote.  If someone is anti cancer, then we don't call them "Pro life", we call them, "anti cancer" because it's the type of life that matters (whether cancer patients or zygotes).
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,720
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@TheUnderdog
@Savant
My girlfriend's daughter had a very difficult pregnancy with preeclampsia and hypertension. The doctors said she wouldn't survive a full term delivery. She delivered a preemie at around 7 months old. I held her last month, it was a beautiful little girl with wide eyes. So tiny, so incredible.

Abortion isn't the only option.
Savant
Savant's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 1,110
3
7
6
Savant's avatar
Savant
3
7
6
-->
@Greyparrot
Well, we're talking in hypotheticals, and I'm willing to entertain one for the sake of argument.
Savant
Savant's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 1,110
3
7
6
Savant's avatar
Savant
3
7
6
-->
@TheUnderdog
If that's the case, then lets say a woman is pregnant and there is a 45% chance the woman dies without an abortion.
Should she be allowed to get an abortion?
I don't know how a pro lifer can answer no to that.
They could use a pretty basic utilitarian framework for that. Assume that if the mother dies, the child will die as well. On utilitarianism, a 55% chance of two people surviving is preferable to a 100% chance of one person surviving.

Not to say that we should blindly accept utilitarianism, but that's one way that a pro-life person could arrive at such a conclusion.

They should just change their name to, "Pro Zygote" if they are willing to give a woman a 45% chance at death to save a zygote.  If someone is anti cancer, then we don't call them "Pro life", we call them, "anti cancer" because it's the type of life that matters (whether cancer patients or zygotes).
Pro-life people typically consider zygotes to be persons and cancer cells to not be persons. "Pro-life" is referring to the lives of diploid human organisms, not human cells. Maybe that's a vague label, but so is "pro-choice."
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 3,755
3
4
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
4
10
-->
@Greyparrot
My girlfriend's daughter had a very difficult pregnancy with preeclampsia and hypertension. The doctors said she wouldn't survive a full term delivery. She delivered a preemie at around 7 months old. I held her last month, it was a beautiful little girl with wide eyes. So tiny, so incredible.

Abortion isn't the only option.
I call this:

Emotional story about a pregnancy that doesn't work on me because I don't care about emotions with legal policy; only logic and morality.  This argument being used to justify abortion legalization due to fetal defects.
 
Then making the, "Abortion isn't the only option" argument that everyone believes in; the left believes it should be an option whereas the right does not believe abortion should be any option.
Emotions dont' work on me; I have autism.  I think like Chat GPT; using facts and logic; not emotional stories.
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 3,755
3
4
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
4
10
-->
@Savant
They could use a pretty basic utilitarian framework for that. Assume that if the mother dies, the child will die as well. On utilitarianism, a 55% chance of two people surviving is preferable to a 100% chance of one person surviving.
And this belief would probably turn off virtually every pro life women from the pro life ideology because pro lifers believe if she has a 45% chance of death from pregnency, then she should be forced to take that risk, making it harder to ban any abortions under any circumstances.

A society where 100% of the woman either were pro choice or become pro choice due to this argument means pro life dudes would have a much harder time spreading their genes and ideas, leading to society accepting legalized abortion until the moment of birth.

Pro life men would be like gay couples; unable to reproduce, and the onyl way they can spread their morals is through adoption with a woman that never becomes pregnant due to her not wanting to be forced to risk her life for a fetus (which this pro life dude would force her to take the risk), and society would come to the consensus that pro life is a subset of mysoginy because they want to force a woman to risk her life even if there is a 45% chance of death from pregnancy.

"Pro-life" is referring to the lives of diploid human organisms, not human cells. Maybe that's a vague label, but so is "pro-choice."
I do prefer the terms Pro Abortion Legalization (PAL) and ANti Abortion Legalization (ANAL); but the terms have yet to be adopted, so I code switch a lot.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,720
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Savant
it's a false hypothetical. There exists other options to save a mother's life that isn't abortion. It's a false dichotomy to push an agenda.
Savant
Savant's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 1,110
3
7
6
Savant's avatar
Savant
3
7
6
-->
@TheUnderdog
And this belief would probably turn off virtually every pro life women from the pro life ideology
Maybe some of them, but I think most pro-life women would have a cutoff somewhere above 0%. I think most of them understand that a line would need to be drawn somewhere if the zygote is a person. Raising a child or paying child support may have a 0.001% of causing one's death indirectly, but few people would say that child abandonment shouldn't be a crime.
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 3,755
3
4
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
4
10
-->
@Savant
Raising a child or paying child support may have a 0.001% of causing one's death indirectly, but few people would say that child abandonment shouldn't be a crime.
You can set an infant up for adoption; you can't do that with a fetus.

Maybe some of them, but I think most pro-life women would have a cutoff somewhere above 0%.
Wherever they draw the line (if it's not at 0%, 50%, or 100%) is totally arbitrary.  Lets say they place it at 5%.  Why there?  Why not 6% or 4%?
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 3,755
3
4
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
4
10
-->
@Greyparrot
 There exists other options to save a mother's life that isn't abortion.
Not always.  The risk to a mother's life is never 0% for her pregnancy even if it's very close to 0%.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,720
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@TheUnderdog
There's also a non zero risk for a mother to survive working at a job to feed her children, yet the state mandates that every mother provide for their children, regardless.
Savant
Savant's avatar
Debates: 23
Posts: 1,110
3
7
6
Savant's avatar
Savant
3
7
6
-->
@TheUnderdog
You can set an infant up for adoption; you can't do that with a fetus.
Well you might have a 0.0001% chance of dying in a car accident on the way to the adoption agency. Plus child support is not optional.

Wherever they draw the line (if it's not at 0%, 50%, or 100%) is totally arbitrary.  Lets say they place it at 5%.  Why there?  Why not 6% or 4%?
Because having a line somewhere is necessary for feasibility. Why is the voting age 18? Why not 17 or 19?
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 3,755
3
4
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
4
10
-->
@Greyparrot
There's also a non zero risk for a mother to survive working at a job to feed her children, yet the state mandates that every mother provide for their children, regardless.
The mother can set her kids up for adoption if she does not agree to the risk of caring for her kids.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,720
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@TheUnderdog
There's a non zero risk her children will come back to kill her after she abandons them to foster care.


TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 3,755
3
4
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
4
10
-->
@Savant
Well you might have a 0.0001% chance of dying in a car accident on the way to the adoption agency. Plus child support is not optional.
I think adoptions should be door to door.  The parent drops the kid off at a stranger's house; if the stranger doesn't want the kid, then they repeat the process until someone is willing to adopt.  It just takes one parent.  A kid with a deadbeat dad has 1 deadbeat parent.  An orphan has 2 deadbeat parents.  How come only one group of parents has to pay child support?  It should be both or neither.


Because having a line somewhere is necessary for feasibility. Why is the voting age 18? Why not 17 or 19?

Because that is the status quo and changing the status quo here would have it look like it's to the benefit of a certain party (because everyone knows young people lean more left than the general population).  If all ages were equally likely to vote for any party, then I think anyone who passes the Citizenship test should be allowed to vote even if 6 years old.  You've proven yourself at that point.



zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,578
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@TheUnderdog
What is needed is a common sense approach to the issue of abortion.

Trouble is, humans are not commonly sensible.

There's always the quagmire of overthink to wade through.

 
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 347
Posts: 1,260
3
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
3
4
4
-->
@TheUnderdog
Abortion should be legal only for saving a mother's life. We don't really need the "every pregnancy is a risk" argument, let alone it being not proven anyway.

But all that is really necessary is in a situation of life and death because you can say it's like self defense.
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 347
Posts: 1,260
3
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
3
4
4
-->
@Savant
Do you mean once ordered to pay , child support is not optional?
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 280
Posts: 8,631
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@TheUnderdog
I think abortion should be legal. Making it illegal is useless and harmful. We already have enough people in foster care.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,720
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Best.Korea
In China, it's not only legal, it was mandatory for a period of time.
Best.Korea
Best.Korea's avatar
Debates: 280
Posts: 8,631
4
6
10
Best.Korea's avatar
Best.Korea
4
6
10
-->
@Greyparrot
I wish my parents aborted me.
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 3,755
3
4
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
4
10
-->
@zedvictor4
What is needed is a common sense approach to the issue of abortion.
"Common sense" is a vague politician like slogan.  Please define, "common sense".


TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 3,755
3
4
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
4
10
-->
@Mall
Abortion should be legal only for saving a mother's life. 
You don't know if a pregnancy will kill a woman until she either dies or gives birth to the kid.  So you would revise this argument to, "Abortion should be legal only when there is an X% chance or higher the woman will die without an abortion."

But then how much do you weight X at?
Mall
Mall's avatar
Debates: 347
Posts: 1,260
3
4
4
Mall's avatar
Mall
3
4
4
-->
@TheUnderdog
" You don't know if a pregnancy will kill a woman until she either dies or gives birth to the kid.  "

How do you know?
TheUnderdog
TheUnderdog's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 3,755
3
4
10
TheUnderdog's avatar
TheUnderdog
3
4
10
-->
@Mall
How do you know?
Either she dies or she survives pregnancy.  The future is never 100% certain.  Mybe I live to 60, maybe I don't.
Amber
Amber's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 210
1
2
6
Amber's avatar
Amber
1
2
6
-->
@TheUnderdog
Premise 1: Abortion should be legal at least if the pregnancy is a risk to the mother’s life.
How anyone can argue otherwise to this premise is beyond all reasonable and rational logic.

A girl/woman who becomes pregnant has more moral value and societal worth as an actual human being than a potential (not guaranteed healthy - downs syndrome, etc. - non-productive) human being does.

Premise 2: Every single pregnancy is a risk to the mother’s life (even if the risk of death is .0001%).
Agreed.

Conclusion 1: Because every pregnancy is a risk to the mother’s life, abortion should be unconditionally legal all the way until the moment of birth.
Agreed. 

Please tell me where my logic is wrong if you disagree with my conclusion.
It's not. It's common sense. 

But alas, most here lack that very requisite element of humanity. As evidenced by some of the responses thus far. 
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,578
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@TheUnderdog
Define common sense.

Checking to see if any vehicles are coming before crossing the road.


Or.


If she had unprotected sex the night before and has no plans to start a family, then she should immediately do something about it. Rather than  mull it over for months.

N.B. Despite deadbeat dad, only deadbeat mum can do this. (Safely) Gin and knitting needles are not sensible.