Macroevolution, an unexplainable process

Author: IlDiavolo

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@Ramshutu
@IlDiavolo
I just want to add that it's true I don't like darwinism, but only because it is a foolish theory that implies randomness (random mutations) and mindless process (natural selection) are the main engine for the evolution of such extraordinary complex living beings.
Evolutionists do tend to under-state the awesomeness of it all, as if transforming legs into flippers or inventing lungs was nothing special!  Perhaps this thread is really about how we know that macro-evolution is in fact almost always the cumulative effect of gradual micro-evolution.
 
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@Stronn
This is, in fact, the definition of macromutation: a mutation that has a profound effect on the resulting organism.
It seems there is confusion as to whether the 'macro' refers to the amount of change to the genome or to the resulting phenotype!


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@keithprosser
The live birth question is interesting - but we’ve actually seen the transition evolve in the real world:


Im also not underselling the awesomeness, the awesomeness of evolution is the relative simplicity of the processes and mechanisms at play.

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@IlDiavolo
The only difference between micro and macro is time, that's it, if you buy the mechanisms of microevolution, you have no reason to infer any time limits to these mechanisms, so macroevolution is just more time + microevolution...you do get that right?
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@keithprosser
Growing an extra finger is not quite,say, switching from egg-laying to live-birth.

I am an evolutionist - I believe in gradual change.  

But i admit I have no idea how to go from egg-lying to live-birth gradually.   
Obviously it did happen - just don't ask me about the details!
Marsupials are the half-way point.

ANd,

Although possessing mammary glands, the platypus lacks teats. Instead, milk is released through pores in the skin. The milk pools in grooves on her abdomen, allowing the young to lap it up.

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@3RU7AL
What sometimes annoys me is when evolutionists write things like

"a wing can simply be made by a sequential and trivial collection of regulatory changes that simply modify the order and pattern an arm grows. That’s all it is."
(Ramshutu post)

I accept that there is a rhetorical battle going on, but I am not so sure things really that simple!  i make a point of going over my posts and removing words such as 'only' and 'just'.  My version of the above would be more like

"a wing can be made by a sequence of regulatory changes that modify the order and pattern an arm grows,"

We don't know if the changes are simple or trivial or what they were, what order they happened, how many generations were required..  I think we come over as blase and doctrinaire - i am not surprised few converts are made.




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@IlDiavolo
Broadly speaking, religious people would stand for creationism

Objectively false, citation needed.
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@keithprosser
What drives me crazy is that nobody is exploring instinct.

Physical characteristics are interesting, but what we really need to figure out is if instincts are part of our DNA.
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@3RU7AL

A BBC documentary and associated book that goes into a lot of detail about instinct behaviour, and actually cites a lot of nature vs nurture research.
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@Ramshutu
I've always taken it as a given that instincts are under genetic control.

Thstshow is not currently available on the BBC web site but it shows up on youtube if you search 'BBC Human Instinct'.
I will certainly be checking it out.



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@keithprosser
Its fascinating. There are actual multiple teirs of instinct. Some very basal - like fight or flight - some very high level. What was interesting (it was covered in the book but I’m not sure about the show), was a study with thesis moneys I think, where they taught monkeys to be afraid of snakes by watching videos of monkeys reacting in fear to snakes - but they couldn’t get those monkeys to learn fear of flowers in a similar way.

If you’re interested, Robert Winston also made a series called the Human Mind, and the Human Body. They were all amazing series - the mind especially.

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@Ramshutu
Which is because the monkey never learned to be scared of snakes in the first place, it was a false-positive badly carried out experiment. Monkeys are born with a terror of snakes, those who lacked the phobia died off.
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@Ramshutu
I think that that example helps show the unplanned nature of evolution.   The sensible ('intellgently designed') approach whould be to make monkeys fear snakes from  birth, but random trial and error has produced a system that - for no good reason - needs a monkey to see another monkey scared of snake to kick in.  

That convoluted, two-stage system is not ideal, but it is a lot better than having no system for snake-fear at all and is,presumably, it's effective enough to prevent a 'from birth' variant evolving.

Quite how it works for snakes but not flowers must be buried in the details of trillions of connections between the billions of neurones in a monkey
brain!  
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@RationalMadman
Its the complete opposite the monkeys are born with an ability to learn to be afraid of snakes - but I’d they do not learn that fear, they will not be afraid.

It actually makes sense, if you’re afaid of snakes, then you move to place that are no snakes but there are scorpions, you have to evolve to be afraid of scorpions. Evolving to be able to learn to be afraid of things from others is much more beneficial.
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@Ramshutu
A BBC documentary and associated book that goes into a lot of detail about instinct behaviour, and actually cites a lot of nature vs nurture research.
Nice, I'll definitely be looking for that.
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@3RU7AL
They’re pretty old so a lot may be out of date, but I would strongly recommend them all.

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@IlDiavolo
but a terrestrial animal can't grow wings to fly because this trait should be created at DNA level or be taken from somewhere. In other words, the Synthetic theory of evolution can't explain macroevolution, or in other case the theory is incomplete.

..."If life originated on Earth, one would expect the red graph of gene births to descend from a narrow beginning, broadening as life spreads over the planet, then becoming more-or-less constant as life continues to evolve. Instead, this graph begins as a broad front that soon widens dramatically.

.....Then it narrows more dramatically and eventually dwindles to virtually nothing, well before the Cambrian Explosion of about 540 million years ago (indicated by the lower dashed line in the figure.)"...


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@keithprosser
But i admit I have no idea how to go from egg-lying to live-birth gradually.   Obviously it did happen - just don't ask me about the details!


In cosmology, at least two groups now claim that the evidence (microwave background radiation) enables them to see beyond (before) the big bang (2).

...We suggest that an analogous phenomenon may be possible in biology. Here David and Alm show that many genes were available at the very beginning of life on Earth, and that many more genes apparently preceded the earthly advent of the features they encode. Other studies provide corroborating data. Could all of this be evidence for life older than Earth? We think so."...


26 days later

Goldtop
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@IlDiavolo
Well, it looks like you took a thrashing here, which was easily predicted as we all know you have no concept of evolution, let alone the ability, capacity and intellect to opine on the explanatory power of evolution. Once a blowhard, always a blowhard, eh Archy?
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@Goldtop
I don't mind to ask you for details because I don't expect more from you.

ROFL!!

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@IlDiavolo
The details are in this thread in which several folks tried to school you, but you just ran away with your tail twixt your legs, just like you said you were going to do.
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@Goldtop
Well, you didn't read well as usual.

I don't get why you keep trying to debate if you have serious problems of reading comprehension.





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@IlDiavolo
I read here where you got your ass handed to you and then you disappeared again,  if that's what you're referring.
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@IlDiavolo
In fact, you disappeared pretty much right after this comment to you...

"Your argument fundamentally misunderstands both genetics and how organisms develop, and at this point it seems you’re mostly going out of your way to ignore responding to where your misunderstandings are being corrected by us."
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@Goldtop
That is all you can do? Bring comments from other people to defend yourself? So sad.

This guy, by the way, was stubbornly repeting the same rant over and over again, even after I gave him an extense explanation of my point. I just got tired. At least you're funnier than him, that is why I respond your comments. Lol.


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Unfortunately - that is not accurate.

If you take a look back, I have been pointing out that your objections and explanations to macroevolution are all based on a very simplistic and naive understanding, each one of your objection were either based on the assumption that big physical differences needed big genetic changes (this is untrue), or that major structure changes required “new” sets of genes to make them (this is also untrue).

I pointed out how it does actually work: (small changes in major gene groups - like Hox genes - produce major phylogenies changes), I explained why it works that way (because development of an organism is primarily the same basic genes and proteins being regulated by a series of simple regulatory genes, meaning changes to the protein, or the more fundamental regulation towards the beginning of the development of the organism has a much larger downstream impact), and I’ve provided a fairly comprehensive set of supporting facts with them (same fundamental cell types, similar body plans for all terrestrial vertebrates, similar developmental patterns, etc).

I also pointed out at times that what you’re claiming is being relied on isn’t even being relied on. In that Macroevolution in its most normal usage doesn’t rely on major phenotypic changes in a single generation - as I explained by listing the changes required to go from fish to amphibian, and from land mammal to whale.

Even though I have gone to great lengths to explain both what the actual science is, and why your understanding of it is wrong, your reply dujour has been to generally re-assert that your interpretation of genetics is correct, and provide a different subtle argument based on that interpretation, rather to defend and justify your interpretation.

In this regard, you are confusing me continually drawing you back to your faulty understanding with “repeating myself”.

I hope that clears things up.







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@Ramshutu
I gave you links to support my statements, especially that one of the scales and feathers. It was as clear as water.
The fact that you don't give a crap other people's comments, it's not my problem.

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@IlDiavolo
As I explained at the time, and I just repeated - you were looking at genetics with a naive and overly simplistic view, so when you looked at the study of scales and feathers, you analyed it based on this faulty understanding.

You took the attempts of trying to make alligators grow feathers as if this proves alligators don’t have a “feather gene”, or some major genetic component that has to be novely created without precursor: based on your naive and overly simplistic understanding.

In reality, that’s not how ANY of this works.

In reality, feathers use mostly the same genes and proteins as scales (and hair for that matter), and the big differences between scales and feathers are mostly related to developmental regulation. Alligators can’t grow feathers because they are far enough removed from birds that there are too many regulatory differences - not because there is a magical new novel gene to produce feathers.

Your error is one of basic understanding of developmental biology and genetics, that you don’t appear to be able or willing to grasp, and upon which all your arguments seem to be errantly based. You’re making no attempt to actually show you have any understanding of the biological underpinning: I’m have been trying to explain literally how organisms develop using basic genetic principles and our modern understanding of how developmental biology works - you are telling me “nope”, you’re offering no explanations of how development does work, or the principles that govern it.


Its like you’re trying to argue that Wayne Gretzky is not the greatest Hockey player of all time because he had a terrible RBI.

Goldtop
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This guy, by the way, was stubbornly repeting the same rant over and over again 

I will give my informed, unbiased opinion as to what I know about the subject, which is not little. You're free to dissent as long as you do it with respect and without bias.
No, he's not ranting, he's trying to explain why you're wrong.  It's because you're not informed or unbiased and you know very little of the subject matter. We all knew that when you were Archaholic on DDO.
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@Goldtop
No, he's not ranting, he's trying to explain why you're wrong.  It's because you're not informed or unbiased and you know very little of the subject matter. We all knew that when you were Archaholic on DDO.
Lol.

If you don't give any valuable scientific information about the matter at hand, I'm afraid I can't respond but just laugh at you.

Alright, Dan?