Reading the Bible: Genesis - Creation (again) and Fall

Author: Discipulus_Didicit

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@Mopac
In fact, the devil can't even overcome a man unless said man allows the devil to.
I don't think that is what matters about a dualism.   Certainly Christianity is 'officially' monotheistic, but many Christians think in terms of a competiton between 'good' and 'evil' with God/Jesus on one side and the devil on the other.  Doctrine may forbid a good Christian from calling the devil 'a god' but a man from Mars might think it's a very fine line!

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@keithprosser
No, there is no such duality in Orthodoxy. Darkness cannot overcome The Light.
disgusted
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@Mopac
And god didn't say let there be light.
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@Mopac
If there was no duality there would be no 'The Dark' for 'the Light' to overcome.


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@disgusted
Yet, there is light, and God spoke it into existence.
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@keithprosser
Darkness is not anything to overcome, it is nothing.


Orthodoxy is not dualism. There is no opposite power to God.
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@Mopac
That is what some man wrote, not what your god dictated he said. Your god doesn't dictate he leaves it up to the author to fabricate.
Your god could not have said let there be light without dictating those words to the author therefore since your god doesn't dictate the author made it up.
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@Mopac
Together with the devil are his hosts of wicked angelic powers who have rebelled against the goodness of God and seek to pervert and destroy God’s good creation.
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@disgusted
God speaks everything into existence as


"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

And someone writing these things down does not change the fact that without Ultimate Reality, there is no reality. All of existence is contingent on God.


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@Mopac
God did not say "let there be light" did he?
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@keithprosser
Like shooting spitballs at the sun.

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@disgusted
God's Word is The Light.
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@Mopac
Like shooting spitballs at the sun.

What is?

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@keithprosser
If all of creation was united in opposition against God, it would still be like shooting spit balls at the sun.


Orthodoxy is not dualism.

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@Mopac
Dualism means two sides exist, not that they are evenly matched.
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@keithprosser
Yet God is One, undivided.
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@Mopac
Except when you don't want Him to be undivided, such when He is Father and Son or even Father, Son and only Ghost.  Sometimes it seems you want your cae and eat it.

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@Mopac
Stop telling lies. God did not say "let there be light" so what did he say?
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@keithprosser
No, the trinity is not God being divided.


God The Father created the universe through The Son(The Word) in The Holy Spirit.


But these are 3 hypostases Homoousion

1 being.

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@Mopac
I gave up on understanding 'trinity' a long time ago...I have no wish to re-open the 'Filioque' battles!
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@keithprosser
Hi Keith,

although my views on the Trinity are not exactly the same as mopac, they are quite similar.

And I also hear your sigh of giving up understanding the Trinity a long time ago. Many have done so. In fact no one except God really understands the Trinity - which incidentally is one of the reasons why I take the view that the Trinity makes sense. God is a mystery - so for God either to be one only or simply many individual gods, it would be relatively more easy to understand. The entire notion of God being one and three is itself so anti-human reason it fits within what I think is a mystery. This concept sits well besides - Jesus, fully man and fully God. It also sits well next to the Scriptures - fully authored by God and yet fully written - not dictated - by men. 

Indeed, if the Trinity was easy to sort out, and Jesus was easy to sort out, and the Scriptures were easy to sort out, I think that all would clearly be the products of humanity alone. Not being able to work something out does not make something divine - or even mysterious per se - but it does mean that attempting to relegate such things to human hands alone is more difficult. Fore example, they might simply be the products of a crazy mind. Yet, given that many people who are not crazy can accept these things for whatever reason makes that not very plausible. 

Personally, I think the Trinitarian idea of the one and the many is brilliant. the tension between the absolute on the one hand and the many on the other is part of our life and clearly permeates every idea afoot without some even being aware of it.  Take a simple example of legality. Gun laws. On the one hand the tension exists between the individual and the society. both have legitimate rights - but who will take priority. Consider our typical left wing v right wing politics - the  individual v the whole. Who is to have the greater right? Are the rights of the society as a whole more important than the rights of the individual? Many would say yes - and many would say no. Trinitarian thinkers would say - it is not that simple. 

In the West we focus on the individual more and more. In Asian countries there is a focus on the community. The Orthodox tends to take an oriental view - while the Catholics tended to take more of Individual view. Yet the Trinity says - clearly at the same time - God is ONE and God is three. Which takes precedence? 

I think it is worthwhile not necessarily coming to grips with the nuances of the Trinity - no one will ever do that. Yet, from a philosophical position alone - it can enable a framework to see things quite differently in our world. Just think of the question such as free will v determinism. Or the question of economics - free enterprise v socialism. Or theological, mono religion v poly-theistic. (interestingly atheism falls within the poly-theistic worldview - despite the intriguing repetition that atheists don't believe in a god - the effect and outcome of their belief or non-belief is that everyone is a god - hence many gods - making it fall more towards Hinduism and directed to multi-cultural and relativistic beliefs) 

Still, a matter for you. 
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@keithprosser
@Tradesecret
The trinity is without a doubt a mystery, and as such it isn't really intended to be explained. But each part of the trinity is explained well enough in scripture to get insight into the mystery.


The Holy Spirit is The Spirit of Truth.

The Son is The Word of God, The Most Perfect Image of God, The Word of Truth we were begatton from to be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


We know The Father through The Son. If The Truth is The Word, and we know it by The Spirit of Truth... what is The Father?


So it is the same being.

The Ultimate Reality is God. The Supreme Being.


The Trinity is not three Gods. The Trinity is not three parts of God. It is One God. 




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You must keep I  mind there were atheists who post here present for any statement you make  regardin g text 
keithprosser
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@Tradesecret
It seems to me the notion of trinity is only neccessary to reconcile the dilemma that Christianity is a "monotheism" with two objects of worship, with 'the holy ghost' adding to the confusion!

To this outsider it is interesting to trace how various attempts to reconcile that dimemma have waxed and waned in history, usually accompanied with deathson various scales. 


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@keithprosser
There is no reconciliation of a dilemma. There is One God. One object of worship. The One True God.




Even here in Genesis you see The Word and The Spirit. 


"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."


Word and Spirit right there.


"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

That breathe is also The Spirit.

You don't have any without the other.




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@keithprosser
The term "unity" is the best argument to establish a connection or harmony with three distinct roles or persons. Unity in spiritual terms means to unify as a single force or unit. So in essence you can have three distinct features that are unified to create a single force. This is what I used to do anyways...
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@Mopac
There is no reconciliation of a dilemma. There is One God. One object of worship. The One True God.
So theologians have concluded!   That being so, the apparent distiction between Jesus and god that a naive reader of the gospels might detect is disposed of by the invention of the concept of Trinity, which seems to have happened about 100 years after Jesus died and over-intellectual theorising became a profession. 

i don't want to give the impression i am talking about 'facts'.  God and the divine Jesus are fictions so they have no real relationship. To give a metaphor of theology, in 'The Wrath of Khan' Khan recognises Chekhov, but Khan appeared in series 1 of TOS and Chekov was added to the cast in series 2.  Star Trek 'theologians' have had great fun inventing ingenious explanations of that discrepancy within the frame work of the Star Trek universe, but the simple truth is that 'it's just a story'.  

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@keithprosser
The Truth is not a story.

And if you see The Truth at all, it is through The Most Perfect Image of Truth, by The Spirit of Truth.


If that is still obscure to you, know that it actually means something very profound that can be experienced and is real. To you it is not real, but you haven't realized it.


And you likely won't without the faith to get to that point.

We experience the uncreated God through the medium of creation. The Word of God is not creation, but the flesh it occupies is just as the flesh you occupy is creation.


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@Mopac
The Truth is not a story.
Yet a story can be true or false.  
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@keithprosser
Yet, The Truth is not a story, and a story is not The Truth.