"Wishful Thinking"

Author: EtrnlVw ,

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  • EtrnlVw
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    The old adage "wishful thinking"....believe it or not is directly opposed to spirituality due to the objective nature and reality of it as well as the purpose behind it. It doesn't pander to individual perceptions or opinions because that would work contrary to change and the cultivating process involved.

    The process of spirituality is specifically to break up patterns, paradigms, molds, personal perspectives, opinions, wishes, desires, urges ect ect to align with what is objective and actual and worth pursuing. It has a transforming quality to it and therefore that sort of mentality (wishful) is not useful and actually can act as a hinderance. The power behind spirituality drives the participant away from delusions rather than keeping them in it.

    Now, this does not mean that the propositions or claims within the spiritual arena will be devoid of mistakes and or absurdities (or even deluded people) of course, because we are dealing with imperfect creatures and their varying levels of expertise or lack thereof. So what you want to distinguish between are aspects of spirituality that are less emotionally involved, and follow the propositions that logically follow and make sense, simplicity and common sense will go a long ways.
    The reason I say "less emotional" is because people tend to mix the two together for example...creating laws or commands to kill or cause harm to others that may have different lifestyles and beliefs and claim it was Gods doing. Discrimination, persecution and segregation have permeated the religious square to the point of idiocy and rarely do they play a true role in spiritual development if at all. And you will notice a true spiritual Master will always abide under the umbrella of unity and love or getting souls to unite in spirituality and experience something real rather than pretentious and self limiting.

    Since the nature of spirituality and the created worlds are so dynamic they can come across as being "out there" but this is only based on perceptions, there are some incredible (unbelievable) aspects within spirituality but they all fit and work together like a puzzle...nothing out of place unless it is truly out of place or non-existent.
    The Creator however is majorly underrated to the extreme, not many people can fathom an eternal Creator and what that really could entail on all levels, and so God is much more dynamic of a Creator than anyone could ever dream.
    In a nutshell making the assertion Theistic beliefs, spirituality or propositions are based on wishful thinking is very much in fact wishful thinking. My point being, change your preconceived idea so that you don't end up with faulty premises and false assumptions. To hold this assumption as true would be like walking through life with a blindfold and would only serve to squash the potential of the holder.

  • keithprosser
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    To hold this assumption as true would be like walking through life with a blindfold and would only serve to squash the potential of the holder.
    It seems the choice is between rose-tinted spectacles and a blindfold!

    The point is that if you can't see something it's not usually because one is wearing a blindfold - it's because it isn't there. 

    I'd say a blindfold is a good way to see God - a microcope or telescope won't help at all.


  • Polytheist-Witch
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    If the afterlife were all flowers and roses I can see wishful thinking but I don't think most people look at it that way. 
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @keithprosser
    It seems the choice is between rose-tinted spectacles and a blindfold!

    Read that again. Rose-tinted spectacles have no part in this. Why would you deliberately contradict the point of this post? just to be funny? I have noticed a change in your demeanor, you are increasingly showing your true colors. 

    The point is that if you can't see something it's not usually because one is wearing a blindfold - it's because it isn't there. 

    Who claimed there was anything one cannot see? (perceive) or are you preconceiving again? "See" is misleading, as that would presuppose ones spiritual experience is limited to physical sense perceptions. Again, are you deliberately being a goofball?

    I'd say a blindfold is a good way to see God - a microcope or telescope won't help at all.

    A blindfold to all your preconceived ideas and beliefs would help no doubt, but a blindfold that leads you to false premises is not one you want. 



  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Polytheist-Witch
    Great point Poly. 
  • Polytheist-Witch
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    The gods of the Dead and afterlife are usually scary as are the realms of the Dead, in most myth anyway. Why assume the afterlife is fun. Even Hindus think you can be reborn poor and low caste. 
  • EtrnlVw
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    Calling a belief that you can survive death a caveman's idea is just shutting yourself off and acting arrogantly in that you know and anyone that thinks otherwise is stupid.. that's essentially what you're saying. So it's no wonder why i am construing that you hate something about this claim. Bc "everything dies" isn't a very good reason to convince me otherwise of its possibility... at all. Of course everything dies, but what is dying? What is life? Are we all really alive right now or are we inside of a dream that is inside of a dream? Is everything a manifestation of an infinite consciousness? Etc. Etc. There are plenty of good hypothesis which implications would be life after death. And no one, including modern science, has debunked its possibility. So the only reason one would shut themselves of to it is bc there is something they hate about it... That's why i'm curious to know what your reason is bc 'everything dies' is really not that good.

    I thought this post was sincere and intelligent enough to make a separate post about it in this topic. This is Outplayz' post in another thread but I'll be arguing it as it is stated, and technically I'm not allowed in the atheist thread to expand on it. Anyone have some problem with these statements? I'd be glad to provide some insight into this topic.

  • Outplayz
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    I never thought wishful thinking was a good argument against spirituality in general. But, it is a good description of most religious people and people that are interested in spirituality. The idea of a always sunny, no evil, no illness, happy go lucky it's Sunday everyday heaven (lets not forgot the 70 virgins) is why more than a billion people alive believe in spirituality and would die for it. It's purely wishful thinking. Ideas like an infinite consciousness etc. don't catch on bc it doesn't promise anything in particular. And most of the time, it's pitched as a feeling of nothingness bc you're everything. That isn't attractive to the billions. Why give up 70 virgins to think logically? Screw that... i'd rather continue with my wishful thinking. You understand it's these people that are making your spiritual message really hard to show others? And i for one think an infinite consciousness type platform is most logical... but, it's just not virgins or a heroin atmosphere.   
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Polytheist-Witch
    The gods of the Dead and afterlife are usually scary as are the realms of the Dead, in most myth anyway. Why assume the afterlife is fun. Even Hindus think you can be reborn poor and low caste. 

    It is both fun and terrifying because of the law of Karma, this is what dictates future experiences (actions) whether they be joyous or hardship. Creation can be very fun, in that you want to follow what is true and precise and stay away from the negative influences because they reverberate and control what people experience. 
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Outplayz
    I never thought wishful thinking was a good argument against spirituality in general. But, it is a good description of most religious people and people that are interested in spirituality. The idea of a always sunny, no evil, no illness, happy go lucky it's Sunday everyday heaven 

    And what source are you reading from lol? That scenario doesn't exist not even in religion OR spirituality... unless you sow that in creation. 
  • Outplayz
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Man you gotta stop tripping out with the exact same time posting. I thought i posted to the wrong thread for a second lol. Thanks for the props... i don't think i made any claims that are too out there. It's just where we are presently. 
  • Outplayz
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    And what source are you reading from lol? That scenario doesn't exist not even in religion OR spirituality... unless you sow that in creation.
    Christianity and Islam... those two have followers in the billions and their afterlife belief could be construed as wishful thinking just bc of what it is. 

  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Outplayz
    I hope you don't mind me using your post at number 7. I thought it would be a cool addition. 
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Outplayz
    Neither Christianity nor Islam describe life as you put it. Can you provide a citation of that?
  • Outplayz
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Neither Christianity nor Islam describe life as you put it. Can you provide a citation of that?

    I'm not talking about life... i'm talking about their afterlife beliefs. And if that's what you meant.... even if the scriptures don't exactly describe it as such, people think of it in a wishful way. 


    I hope you don't mind me using your post at number 7. I thought it would be a cool addition. 
    No problem. 
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Outplayz
    I'm not talking about life... i'm talking about their afterlife beliefs.

    Do you have an inherent issue with the afterlife (for those who deserve to progress) heaven in which life is of a higher order? that is kind of the point of learning and progressing. While life doesn't end in a heavenly scenario per say it is important to have rewards and punishments otherwise everything you do is irrelevant. 
  • disgusted
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    @ET
    An afterlife of reward and punishment is nothing more than wishful thinking.
  • Outplayz
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Do you have an inherent issue with the afterlife (for those who deserve to progress) heaven in which life is of a higher order? that is kind of the point of learning and progressing. While life doesn't end in a heavenly scenario per say it is important to have rewards and punishments otherwise everything you do is irrelevant. 
    I have many problems with certain things about a heaven type afterlife. Mainly they are just personal. I personally think, as it is described, it would be hell. So for people to expect me to be there just for their sake is kinda offensive. Plus, i don't like how it doesn't teach to hope people will journey how they will want to journey. It's almost like a parent that never lets their kids leave home. But overall, i think people will get whatever they want. I don't know how that works out overall since their son just might not want it... maybe they'll just think he went to hell. Or maybe they will just go to a heaven type place and be content by themselves. I don't know... i don't tell anyone they are wrong in where they think they will go bc it could very well be true for them. I just know it isn't for me. But in any case, in general... heaven in both Christianity and Islam is purely made off wishful thinking. That's not a bad thing... it might get them to this super place they will never be sad or whatever... but, you have to admit, just 70 virgins alone is wishful thinking.  

  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @disgusted
    An afterlife of reward and punishment is nothing more than wishful thinking.

    That's called wishful thinking. The reality is called cause and effect.  
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Outplayz
    I have many problems with certain things about a heaven type afterlife. Mainly they are just personal.

    That's the point of creation and an afterlife. No one has any expectations for you personally. 
  • Outplayz
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    That's the point of creation and an afterlife. 
    What is the point? Can you explain... I'm not following you.

  • Outplayz
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    No one has any expectations for you personally. 
    Come on man, you know that's not true. A lot of people have expectations of me. Have you ever explained your belief to a fundamentalist? You know they don't agree and tell you to believe in their version to get their version of an afterlife. I would call that high expectations. 

  • disgusted
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    @ET
    Change of heart? You said an afterlife of reward and punishment was needed not wishful thinking.
    it is important to have rewards and punishments otherwise everything you do is irrelevant. 

  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @disgusted
    Try making some sense. 
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Outplayz
    I'm sorry I was not referring to you presenting yourself to some religious community. As far as spirituality is concerned, there are applicable measures to obtain. I know you are opposed to that, but denying it would be like denying natural laws. There is an order to creation and progression of the soul, to reach that progression involves participation at some level. And I can describe these levels of participation. The reason these levels exist is because much damage can be done in the higher realities of experience without them.