how Europe started a trade war with the United States

Author: WyIted

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#31
MayCaesar
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@Greyparrot
Again, these measures harm both economies: the idea that the EU members somehow take the upper hand in dealings with the US is uneconomical. The US retaliating against European countries employing protectionist policies with its own protectionist policies is like a husband whose wife never takes trash out deciding to never take trash out either to have revenge on her - and now they are both stuck in a terribly smelling house.

When it comes to the US government plain investing into the European continent with military aid, loans that are unlikely to be paid back, infrastructure investments, etc. - I will be the first one to say that this should be stopped: taking money away from the US taxpayers and funneling it to another continent is a separate issue. This is not about John from Ohio wanting to trade with Ming from Guangzhou and both the Chinese and the US government standing in the middle and telling them, "Pay a toll for the divine privilege to do business!" - this is about one of said governments taking away from John and giving to Ming. Tariffs do not address the latter situation in any way, but they do exacerbate the former.
#32
Greyparrot
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@MayCaesar
Again, these measures harm both economies:....
Exactly! that’s the point. When a so-called ally has been slapping you in the face for over 50 years while smiling and calling it friendship, ending that toxic relationship was never going to be painless. It’s not just economics, it’s basic relationship psychology.

The people wringing their hands over the tariff war remind me of the worried mother watching her son suddenly strike his friend. She's panicking, because she has never seen the conflict that was always there, hidden behind polite smiles and hollow trade deals. She thought they were friends. Her illusion was shattered. Her son knew better. 

Thomas Sowell often says there are no economic solutions, only trade offs, and America sacrificed its role as a producer of goods along with economic security in 2020 when China showed us what will happen if we don't fight back against dependent suppliers of the critical goods we stopped manufacturing. The next Covid-like shutdown won't be nearly as kind if we don't fight back now.
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#33
WyIted
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@MayCaesar
which is as illegal in China as it is in the US -
Which is why what I am saying is clear hyperbole but not by much. Let's use common sense

The very companies that clearly are afraid of open competition and rely on protectionist policies to succeed? 
They want open competition but other countries prior to Trump had higher tarrifs on American goods than Visa versa and we still crushed them by having the most dominant economy on the planet. Let's not forget paying below what an American would make as minimum wage, playing with currency value and sweat shops are a form of tarrifs as well.

Sorry, but it is hard to take these claims as anything other than rationalization of Trump's reckless and random economical policy. Trump himself has never said that the purpose of tariffs was to discourage slavery elsewhere, as far as I know. I am not sure why people are trying so hard to find new reasons to approve of his actions
It's a weapon with a lot of benefits particularly against countries who benefit more from the United states than Visa versa and it can also be protectionist against countries like China who will put women in factories working 15 hours a day for $2 an. Hour. 

Do I think a slaver (hyperbole for these business owners in China) would rethink their life decisions?

Only if they have a 3 digit IQ.

Imagine you are a slaver and you stop for a minute to see that hey  Warran buffet is a billionaire and has no slaves, why wouldn't you emulate his business practices so you can be a billionaire?

It's retarded to not become a billionaire. 
#34
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@FLRW
Imagine two gas stations across the street from each other. One gets hit with a 1¢ tax per gallon. Suddenly, more people go to the untaxed station, even though it’s just a penny difference. No one’s arguing over who pays the tax. The point is that the tax shifted the customer flow. That’s market share. The tax didn’t have to be huge. It just had to tilt the decision of the consumer.

Tariffs do the exact same thing in global trade. They don’t have to be big, they just have to nudge consumers toward domestic producers. Tariffs aren’t just about collecting money. That's just the stick. They’re about changing who wins the sale. That's the carrot. That shift in who buys and from where is the real power of a tariff. 

It's not about anything other than determining what country has the market share of a good at a global level. Fairness or who pays is an afterthought.

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#35
WyIted
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@MayCaesar
Again, these measures harm both economies: the idea that the EU members somehow take the upper hand in dealings with the US is uneconomical. The US retaliating against European countries employing protectionist policies with its own protectionist policies is like a husband whose wife never takes trash out deciding to never take trash out either to have revenge on her
I'd get rid of the bitch but this is a fair tactic. Because then you give her the decision to either live in a filthy house or contribute. 

It's a stupid example though. Men are supposed to take out. Trash if he wants her help he should instruct her to do something feminine like dishes and he does the more labor intensive household chores. Men are born to be work horses
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#36
WyIted
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Let's not forget part of the tarrifs strategy is to eliminate income taxes long term so that taxation can be optional .
#37
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@WyIted
It's a stupid example though. Men are supposed to take out. the. Trash.
How dare you talk about toxic masculinity with all those garbage toting norms the soy crowd has fought decades to eliminate....
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#38
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@Greyparrot
Seriously though lol. What type of man let's his wife take out the trash or mow the yard? 

What type of woman would ever allow her man to cook a birthday cake? 

These norms exist for a reason. 
#39
MayCaesar
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@WyIted
What I see in your comments is an emotional reaction: "They mistreated us - time to mistreat them back! That will show 'em!" In Russia they have a saying for this: "I will gouge out my own eye so that my stepmother has a one-eyed stepson".  I would expect the top economy in the world to be above that. What I am interested is what improves the economy here, and tariffs demonstrably do not. Free trade does, and if the trade partner puts some obstacles in the way, it is still better to have unobstructed gates here than to create another bottleneck. "Allies" or not - who cares? Neither the US nor the Chinese government is my ally. I am interested in trading with Joe here and Wang there, and I see no reason why someone from the White House should step in between us and collect a toll.

To the idea that someone can look at Warren Buffet and want to emulate his business... Sorry, but this is not a serious one. How many American companies emulate his business and succeed? If it was that simple, then everyone would be a billionaire. Chinese "slavers" (whoever you meant by that - I am quote confused now) can look at Warren Buffet's business now; how will American tariffs make it more visible?

As for Sowell's quote, he meant by that that whatever policy one implements it will always have negative side effects. That does not change the fact that some policies are better than other policies, and some policies outright suck. I would argue that all forms of taxation - including tariffs - suck. But tariffs suck quite a bit more than many, for the same reason as mandated oligopolies in general suck. If only three local hospitals are allowes to operate unhinged and all other hospitals have to pay a toll, then the healthcare prices will skyrocket and quality will plummet. Guess what imposing tariffs on imported cars will do to the auto market? Basic math: supply lowers - the rest follows.
#40
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@MayCaesar
I see you ignored the point of not repeating the 2020 global supply disaster on critical goods. This leads me to believe you are not interested in debating in good faith.

You also ignored the point about American youth having no future prospects because we sacrificed stability for convenience. That cost goes far beyond your petty concerns over taxes.

Your analogy about hospitals isn't comparable. Hospitals aren't being offshored or imported from geopolitical rivals or frenemies with a record of hostile trade practices. We’re not slapping tariffs on harmless competition, we're correcting decades of offshoring that gutted decades of American industry. Tariffs aren’t about what's the most efficient solution. They’re about taking a dramatic step toward regaining economic independence. You can worship at the altar of cheap goods if you want, but don’t pretend that altar is free. 2020 proved the price of economic dependence is steep, and next time, it won’t just be toilet paper, microchips, or necessary pharmaceuticals that’s missing.
#41
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@WyIted
If you enjoy history, you should read the Sparknotes version of the Opium wars and understand the true cost of losing economic independence. China still has not forgiven the West for that, and it is a big reason why they are currently our geopolitical rival. Revenge culture is strong in China.
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#42
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@MayCaesar
What I see in your comments is an emotional reaction: "They mistreated us - time to mistreat them back! That will show 'em!" 
So your answer to a bully punching you in the face everyday is to continue to let them because punching back might make things worse for both of you?

Are you even a man at that point?
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#43
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@Greyparrot
China is emotionally inclined anyway. It's Americans who are rational. It's why everyone knows open criticism leads to rapid improvement and a government responsive to it's people but they are so weak that even well intentioned criticism gets people locked up. That pride is their undoing. 
#44
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@WyIted
In fact, China and America currently teach 2 vastly versions of ethnocentric history. While America focuses almost exclusively on how much it's an evil nation with slavery and unequal civil rights, China is busy making sure their kids know about external betrayal. How the West humiliated their nation, weakened their sovereignty, and forced addiction and subservience through gunboat diplomacy.

And that is a difference that matters. The U.S. narrative trains citizens to question their own past. The Chinese narrative trains citizens to never again allow foreign domination. So when China pushes for self-reliance, steals tech, tariffs the hell out of the US, builds redundant infrastructure, undercuts the US market through subsidies or currency manipulation, or talks about “reunifying” Taiwan, they see it as reclaiming strength lost in 1842. And when we dismiss tariffs or economic control as outdated, inefficient, or harming both sides, they see Americans as fools, repeating the very mistakes that made the Chinese victims in the first place 180 years ago. Where the Chinese were once forced to be addicted to Opium, now Americans willingly become addicted to cheap stuff at an enormous social cost.

Free marketers cheer the flow of cheap goods like it’s economic genius, but it’s just the broken window fallacy in disguise. Sure, there’s activity: things move, stuff sells, but no one counts the factories that never came back, the trades that died out, or the kids stuck in dead-end jobs because the future was offshored for a quick discount. Those are the hidden opportunity costs from breaking and fixing those windows. We saved a buck today by stealing ten from tomorrow's kids.