Is a perfect sales tax actually regressive?

Author: Savant

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ADreamOfLiberty
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@Savant
The system favours the rich.
Yeah, obviously. What system doesn't favor people who have more money?
That might be backward. Those favored by the system become rich.

The question is not how to get rid of rich people, its how to make a system that favors (makes wealthy) the honest and productive people.

Best practical answer and only moral answer is: A system that favors people who convince others that they're worth it without deception.


The fundamental error of "progressive" i.e. redistribution taxation is the notion that the system can be fixed after the fact. The only way the rich would not be deserving of their wealth is if they got it by force or fraud, and the only way to do that (legally) is through government. Furthermore government is supposed to prevent the illegal variations.

You don't "tax" criminals, you stop them, leaving only the government grifters.

Therefore what people keep asking for is "Give me a tax code where the enrichment from taxes and regulations accumulated as an unfair advantage by X is reversed."

It's asking a crime organization to make their victims whole by taking from themselves and giving to the victims.

The results are exactly what one would expect. No matter how high the taxes go, the rich keep getting richer. More accurately the people in on the scheme keep getting richer and the people who aren't keep getting poorer by comparison.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
The results are exactly what one would expect. No matter how high the taxes go, the rich keep getting richer. More accurately the people in on the scheme keep getting richer and the people who aren't keep getting poorer by comparison.
The system favours the rich.
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@Shila
The system favours the rich.
The system of people being willing to exchange things for money? Yes.
FLRW
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Why do poor people (those worth less than $300 million) even want to live?
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@FLRW
Why do poor people (those worth less than $300 million) even want to live?
They don’t have to pay wealth tax.
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Sales tax is a regressive tax because it takes a bigger percentage of a lower-income person's income than a higher-income person's income. This means that sales tax hits the poor harder than the rich.
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@FLRW
Sales tax is a regressive tax because it takes a bigger percentage of a lower-income person's income than a higher-income person's income. This means that sales tax hits the poor harder than the rich.
Poverty is regressive. It hits the poor harder than the rich.
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@FLRW
Sales tax is a regressive tax because it takes a bigger percentage of a lower-income person's income than a higher-income person's income. This means that sales tax hits the poor harder than the rich.
A long-term sales tax doesn't tax value from consumers at the point of sale, it taxes value proportionately as soon as it is implemented. Value is not the same as dollars spent. If half my money is covered in paint and made unusable, the burden is the same as if I paid 50% of my money to the government.
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@Savant
Sales tax is a regressive tax because it takes a bigger percentage of a lower-income person's income than a higher-income person's income. This means that sales tax hits the poor harder than the rich.
A long-term sales tax doesn't tax value from consumers at the point of sale, it taxes value proportionately as soon as it is implemented. Value is not the same as dollars spent. If half my money is covered in paint and made unusable, the burden is the same as if I paid 50% of my money to the government.
If your money is made unusable to the government. They will come for the other half.

41 days later

MayCaesar
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@ADreamOfLiberty
That might be backward. Those favored by the system become rich.

The question is not how to get rid of rich people, its how to make a system that favors (makes wealthy) the honest and productive people.

Best practical answer and only moral answer is: A system that favors people who convince others that they're worth it without deception.
I would question this approach to the matter. I do not think it is meaningful to talk about someone being "worth" something in the economical context. Suppose someone does not think that Bill Gates is "worth" having billions of dollars - what implications does it have and what does it really mean?

What is important is the nature of economical transactions in the society. When me and another person find a way to be useful to each other, to trade on mutually beneficial terms - are we allowed to do so, or does someone intervene on the basis of our trade not aligning with his vision? In the first case, we have a free market system in which, by its very nature, one can only get rich by providing more value to others than others provide value to them. In the second case, the best way to get rich is to make friends in high circles and use their power to enrich oneself.

In most societies a lot of emphasis is done on generating some kind of society-wide guarantees that will not allow anyone to fall through the cracks: "If you are poor, the society will take care of you". This is corrupting in many ways, but the most obvious way is that the organization (government) which is bound to take care of the poor will require a lot of resources - far more resources than the wealthiest individual in the country can ever hope to acquire - and the infighting between those seeking to control those resources is inevitable. It also incentivizes destructive financial behaviors: if you know that, should you fail, the society will bail you out, then you will be much more reckless in your spending - much like banks that are guaranteed bail-outs by the government will be investing much more aggressively than they would in the presence of a real risk to go bankrupt and have to deal with it on their own.

I think that it is better to place emphasis on liberating the economy. If the economy is truly free, then, except for rare cases of extreme disabilities and the like (which private charity takes care of far more efficiently than the government does), poor people who remain poor for decades have only themselves to blame: the opportunities are everywhere. Any poor person can learn a craft, become useful to others and get out of poverty.

While in an unfree economy the poor are more likely to remain the poor, because they get free cash from the government without needing to do anything to change their circumstances, and the government erects a lot of barriers preventing them from partaking in more ambitious economical activities. In the US, for example, most visas do not allow foreigners to work in the country - and if you are, say, an F1 student here and you run out of money, then there is nothing you can do legally to fix your finances, short of returning to your home country.

Where does the sales tax fit in all this? It very directly inhibits all trade transactions. If there was no sales tax, then I could make chairs in my garage and sell them at the price my customers are willing to pay for them. With the sales tax, both of us have to pay the government for the right to partake in such transactions, and, splitting the tax between ourselves, I become poorer (I get less cash for my chairs), and they become poorer (they pay more for my chairs). The government takes the tax money and decides what to do with it - and me and my customers certainly know better than the government how we would rather spend that money. The government might even decide that chairs are better produced and sold by Ikea than by random garage producers like me and enact a special tax on me, or issue a licensing rule.

I realize that the government has to be funded somehow, but I think that the role of the government should be significantly shrunk. The government might have a role in a situation where one individual wants to murder another individual - but it should have no role in a situation where one individual wants to sell something to another individual. And it certainly should have no role in deciding whether the rich are "worth" their money. Bill Gates' customers have voted for him being a billionaire with their wallets - and there is no more honest vote than the one that is supported by gold.
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@MayCaesar
Suppose someone does not think that Bill Gates is "worth" having billions of dollars - what implications does it have and what does it really mean?
Nothing given that Bill Gates doesn't service just one person.

People think that Bill Gate's product is worth $220. It's just that there are a million people who agree.

It means that Bill Gates isn't a thief. It means that it's a trade. It means he doesn't owe society anything for the privilege of being rich, he's rich because society owed him for all the windows licenses.

Switching back and forth between a finite set of customers and "society" is logically questionable, but it's also a fundamental tactic of tax apologists, so I play their game...


I realize that the government has to be funded somehow
I think going from "this needs to be paid for" to "This needs to be paid for by extortion" is the actual "big lie" of our civilization.

Consensual funding would cause a hundred secondary effects would would improve government efficiency for the exact same reason that competing companies are better than artificial monopolies for employees and customers.

That is why:
but I think that the role of the government should be significantly shrunk.
I am now ambivalent on that point.

While the government is operated in an evil impractical manner shrinking it is better, but it would never be small enough to be acceptable under those terms.

On the other hand if it operated morally and cunning structure (in the same ambitious spirit of the checks and balances of the US constitution) then it being larger would not necessarily be a bad thing.

I don't know what it could accomplish under such circumstances. There is the fundamental problem of definitions. Right now the idea of "public action" and "government" are synonymous, but a better definition of "government" might be "the people who you call when you need to threaten violence against an aggressor".

There is no reason for public action to be mixed with violence. Every social safety net and non-violent public service could be a chartered corporation, the charter following basic requirements agreed to in a constitution (the social contract).

As long as it works, collective public action can grow to 99% of the economy for all I care.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
As long as it works, collective public action can grow to 99% of the economy for all I care.
They will get it right.....this time....
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The Revolution is coming!
MayCaesar
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@ADreamOfLiberty
I think going from "this needs to be paid for" to "This needs to be paid for by extortion" is the actual "big lie" of our civilization.

Consensual funding would cause a hundred secondary effects would would improve government efficiency for the exact same reason that competing companies are better than artificial monopolies for employees and customers.
I agree - but, at that point, we are just talking about a private organization and not a government any more. I simply meant that if the government is to exist at all, then it should be funded with taxes or some other imposition of its will on the individuals. Whether it should exist is a different question. I lean towards "no", and, I suspect, you do too.



I am now ambivalent on that point.

While the government is operated in an evil impractical manner shrinking it is better, but it would never be small enough to be acceptable under those terms.

On the other hand if it operated morally and cunning structure (in the same ambitious spirit of the checks and balances of the US constitution) then it being larger would not necessarily be a bad thing.

I don't know what it could accomplish under such circumstances. There is the fundamental problem of definitions. Right now the idea of "public action" and "government" are synonymous, but a better definition of "government" might be "the people who you call when you need to threaten violence against an aggressor".

There is no reason for public action to be mixed with violence. Every social safety net and non-violent public service could be a chartered corporation, the charter following basic requirements agreed to in a constitution (the social contract).

As long as it works, collective public action can grow to 99% of the economy for all I care.
This is likely to go terribly wrong. Milton Friedman once said: "Nobody spends other's money as carefully as he spends his own". A good illustration is Lime Scooters: have you seen how people treat those, versus how they treat their own? A person will never drop his scooter into a muck and walk away - he will have to use this scooter many times over and cares about its condition - but the rental scooter he will probably never use again, and if the next person to use it finds it dirty and unrecoverable, then who cares?

It is essential for an individual to own as many things in his life as he can own. Communal management of anything, even if fully consented upon by everyone involved, is bound to lead to a tragedy of the commons. This is why large private corporations such as Google grow to become slow and unmanageable beasts, and corruption thrives there almost as easily as it does in the government - in fact, such corporations end up colluding with the government and lobbying the laws that dry out competition.

I think that Harry Browne's model is optimal: people form temporary associations to achieve very particular goals, then part ways. Instead of having a large corporation in which almost everything is managed by a collective of managers or shareholders, to the extent to which it is possible, it is best to contract everything. Working on a large software project and need to build 100 different modules? Hire 100 different programmers to write one module with unit tests each, then hire a few to put all this together - pay them their dues, then say goodbye to them - and you have the final product without the burden of being accountable to countless individuals working for you or holding your assets.

Automation creates fascinating prospects for that. I am already outsourcing 95% of my code writing to ChatGPT and get more done in a day than 5 years ago most software engineers got done in a month. If I were to create a new video game, for instance, I would not need to rent an office, build a studio, search for investors and publishers... I would just find a few contractors to do different parts of the project (each of whom is much more productive than almost anyone was 5 years ago), then put all this together and self-publish, using LLMs for advertising purposes.

In the future, everything could work this way. People will own their lives and not have to contend with countless contracts they have to bind themselves by. And instead of collectively used enterprises such as Lime, there instead would be networks like Uber everywhere connecting service providers with service consumers, and project directors with private contractors. You can have your own scooter without having to build it from raw materials, and without anyone having to accept any long-term job contracts. Someone who is good at building chassis will build chassis, and, without his awareness, he will have contributed to thousands of vehicles roaming the streets of his city.
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@Savant
i think i could add something to this point of yours...a flat sales tax, in fact, would (relatively) be more progressive because the current tax system carves out all sorts of exemptions for rich lobbyists regardless of the stated marginal rates, so in comparison, a flat and fair sales tax would be far more progressive.

Wealthy elites and their lobbyists consistently oppose a flat, transparent, fair tax system. The simplest explanation is that they’d end up paying more under it. Occam’s Razor applies here: the most straightforward reason the rich resist a flat or fair consumption tax is because the current system, despite high marginal rates on paper, is riddled with exemptions, loopholes, and deductions that benefit them only. If they were truly paying their fair share now, they wouldn’t consistently be spending millions lobbying to keep the system as is. The resistance of establishment elites is the clearest signal that a flat tax would actually close the loopholes and force tax compliance. A tax system that actually enforces a fair share.
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@MayCaesar
This is likely to go terribly wrong.
The devil is in the details.

In general things go terribly wrong with the motivations are wrong. They are almost always wrong in current government structures, but there is no shortage of disasters in private enterprise.

Those disasters are not random acts of god, they can be traced to people who do not understand that personal financial motivators for all actors need to be intelligently designed.

The most basic premise "you pay me if I produce, if I don't produce you don't pay me" takes you very far, creates the invisible hand; but it's all to easy to stray beyond its protection in large organizations both public and private.


A good illustration is Lime Scooters: have you seen how people treat those, versus how they treat their own?
And yet renting and leasing is an ancient practice that has allowed utilization in many circumstances where it would otherwise be impossible.

Is the problem with the idea of renting or is it the fact that Lime didn't have a mechanism to motivate good treatment?

In other words, people who beat up lime scooters faced no financial consequences.

Unfortunately in some places the same is true of renting residential space, and those places turn into slums.


This is why large private corporations such as Google grow to become slow and unmanageable beasts
An excellent point. They grow in the soil of rational self-interest but do not understand how to use it within their own organization. That is very common.


I think that Harry Browne's model is optimal: people form temporary associations to achieve very particular goals, then part ways. Instead of having a large corporation in which almost everything is managed by a collective of managers or shareholders, to the extent to which it is possible, it is best to contract everything. Working on a large software project and need to build 100 different modules? Hire 100 different programmers to write one module with unit tests each, then hire a few to put all this together - pay them their dues, then say goodbye to them - and you have the final product without the burden of being accountable to countless individuals working for you or holding your assets.
Ideal organization models in theory are as varied as the modes of production and service.

As you noted with google, it is not who pays and owns the effort that matters; but what they are doing.

If functional organization models became well known, encoded in local constitutions, and the shareholders were a very large proportion of the body politic; then it would be de facto a public action.

That was what I was pointing out. I don't care about the difference between private and public ownership of a project. I don't care if the shareholders 100% overlap with workers and customers, in fact I think that is probably for the best.

People are afraid of what they call "greedy" search for unlimited profits, and while in many cases they are quite wrong about statistics I am certain that the invisible hand will still operate with capped profits and categorical limitations on shareholders.

People have a right to try and construct such organizations and I think they could work and they may be more efficient than a pure profit motive company for certain services and products.

I hope that is clear: Liberty is the moral imperative, quality of life (production per capita) is the practical imperative.

Profits or the demographics of owners/managers/employees/customers is incidental.


In the future, everything could work this way. People will own their lives and not have to contend with countless contracts they have to bind themselves by. And instead of collectively used enterprises such as Lime, there instead would be networks like Uber everywhere connecting service providers with service consumers, and project directors with private contractors.
The internet does allow for rapid development of peer to peer economics, it has for years although it has been slow to be utilized.

It also allows for more complicated central models as well.
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@FLRW
Why do poor people (those worth less than $300 million) even want to live?
I'm not worth $300M, and I'm perfectly happy. I'm with Trump that money is simply a by-product of making a good deal that benefits both parties. For example, I have a couple of clients living in Russia in separate cities who are happy with my writing [for both, I ghostwrite & illustrate short e-books, generally less than 80 pages], on a variety of subjects, all non-fiction, legal, business, personal management, or medical-related] for which they appreciate my dedicated researched footnotes into such matters, and they pay me faster than most of my American clients for whom the same general product is provided. Win/win, even from a not-so-well appreciated country. But these are people, not their countries, so the politics never apply, anyway.
MayCaesar
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@ADreamOfLiberty
The most basic premise "you pay me if I produce, if I don't produce you don't pay me" takes you very far, creates the invisible hand; but it's all to easy to stray beyond its protection in large organizations both public and private.
There is a lot more to economics than this premise. It does not take into account human psychology, without which we might as well be talking about economics of a virtual world that does not exist.


And yet renting and leasing is an ancient practice that has allowed utilization in many circumstances where it would otherwise be impossible.

Is the problem with the idea of renting or is it the fact that Lime didn't have a mechanism to motivate good treatment?
And this exactly illustrates that. Even when there are strong financial motivators, people still treat something they plan to hold on to for years better than something that tomorrow someone else will hold. If I lease a car for 3 years, I obviously will take a better care for it than if I just borrow it from someone for one day - but I still will treat it much more poorly than I did if I planned to drive it for 20 years to come.

This is a manifestation of the "tragedy of the commons": if your actions give you a lot of benefit while strongly dispersing the costs, then you will be likely to take that action. Humans must have a very high culture to rise above that, and I do not think that relying on a high culture is the way to go about economics.


That was what I was pointing out. I don't care about the difference between private and public ownership of a project. I don't care if the shareholders 100% overlap with workers and customers, in fact I think that is probably for the best.
I do not think that thinking like this flies out in the real world. Economics is not just raw money flaws: it is also psychology, interactions between people, all kind of unfulfilled desires and so on. That coffee maker at your office that everyone uses is going to be less precious to you than the coffee maker at your home, regardless of how much you care for your officemates. Same is true for the company ownership: if you are a sole owner of the company, you will have much more stake in its success, than if you are just one of a hundred shareholders.

I personally thrive in small start-ups where tiny groups work on very specific projects. I feel the sense of strong ownership of my work, can see its results with my own eyes, and largely pay for my own mistakes and do not pay for others' - this incentivizes me to give it my best, to avoid cutting corners, to proactively ask where my boss wants my project to go and so on.

I strongly believe that this if the future of the developed market. Feeling of ownership of your work is crucial. Ironically, Marxists - who pretty much repeat this sentence word to word - get it exactly backwards and propose a system in which ownership is completely obliterated. They think that, as long as it is not the "evil capitalist" who owns the enterprise, every worker will own it - but that is a contradiction in terms. It is impossible to own something that someone else owns too. If multiple people own something, then no one owns it.


People are afraid of what they call "greedy" search for unlimited profits, and while in many cases they are quite wrong about statistics I am certain that the invisible hand will still operate with capped profits and categorical limitations on shareholders.

People have a right to try and construct such organizations and I think they could work and they may be more efficient than a pure profit motive company for certain services and products.
Profits reflect the value of the company to the market players, and there is no such thing as maximization of profits at the expense of the customer - with the caveat that customers may have psychological weaknesses that the company can exploit (and for which, I would argue, the customers are fully responsible). But organizations are built by flawed humans, and more often than not when they think that they have found a better goal than profit maximization, they are deeply mistaken.

To think that one knows better than the market - which is dissemination of knowledge of millions of market players and thousands of expert analysts - what is good for the customers is to be incredibly arrogant and impractical. Of course, anyone has a right to try out any model they want. My point is simply that if the society as a whole starts preferring dispersed ownership and "stakeholder capitalism" ideas - even if not enforced by the government - then we will likely end up living in a much worse world than most people expect.
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@MayCaesar
Even when there are strong financial motivators, people still treat something they plan to hold on to for years better than something that tomorrow someone else will hold. If I lease a car for 3 years, I obviously will take a better care for it than if I just borrow it from someone for one day - but I still will treat it much more poorly than I did if I planned to drive it for 20 years to come.
And yet car rental companies make a profit.

People will take care of rented property if the system to hold them accountable for abuse are effective and clear beforehand. If people have abused lime scooters, the error was in the fact that the lime investors and management underestimated the need to hold people accountable and/or reward them for responsible behavior.

An error in application, not theory.


That coffee maker at your office that everyone uses is going to be less precious to you than the coffee maker at your home, regardless of how much you care for your officemates.
No longer applicable to me, but I have worked in offices where the coffee maker was $5000.

What would not be worth it to have in my home, was worth it for so many coffee addicts in one place. There is efficiency in sharing where sharing is possible.

As it so happened when coffee makers are $5000 they tend to be glorious constructs of invincible stainless steel that are nearly impossible to damage or incidentally abuse.

If the choice is between a very robust and reliable machine that is shared with strong financial motivators for responsible use, and everyone having an easily broken or unreliable machine, I choose the former and I think most people would as well.

It does require reliable and efficient civil courts of course, and that is not something anyone has had recently.


if you are a sole owner of the company, you will have much more stake in its success, than if you are just one of a hundred shareholders.
and yet the first thing everyone who wants to start a company does is limit their liability.

Owners are like everyone else, they want to maximize profit and minimize risk.

Owner/employees combine the interests of investment and wage and that is an improvement. I do not believe that the benefit of highly motivating a few individuals at the top of the management hierarchy is superior in terms of productivity to somewhat improving the motivations of all employees.

I think when it has been tried in the past it failed because employees who tend to want this tend to be communists who started off with a flawed social theory, i.e. they thought rich people were evil and once they were gone everything would magically turn out fine.

Rational self-interest is the important part, not irrational self-interest.

Those workers ate their own company alive and hurt themselves in the long run, but 'investors' do the same thing intentionally in hostile takeover -> liquidation.

Internal chartered structures would be necessary to discourage the irrationality of the worker/shareholder and I think a constantly refined family of charters would outperform the current prevalent models.

We don't need any special use of force to run this experiment, just let people be free and we'll see. As it stands the giant parasite called "the deep state" "the establishment" "the military industrial complex" favors company structures that are easier to corrupt, so we cannot know that success in this environment is truly reflective of success in a free market.


Feeling of ownership of your work is crucial.
This is perhaps correct, but at the same time most projects are beyond the scope of the individual. What is then needed is a mechanism to formalize owning a part, owning a subproject, owning a subcomponent, owning a certain step in the process, etc...

I think this is orthogonal to who owns the company as an asset for the most part, but if there is interaction, it must be true that someone who owns part of the company feels more ownership than someone who doesn't (all else equal).


and there is no such thing as maximization of profits at the expense of the customer
There is such a thing as overpricing your product and it is more prevalent due to psychology than under-pricing. A company charter which  corrects that psychological irrationality may lead to companies which are more competitive in the long run.

Profits reflect the value of the company to the market players
No, that is sales, or income.

What amongst the income constitutes profit depends on the perspective. If you're a worker, your profit is the wage, but in the classical view a worker's wage is a cost of production.

You could just as easily view self-investment as separate from profit, and storing the value in a bank for liquid flexibility  as separate from profit as well.

I am pointing out that even if you are at the perfect price point, i.e. peak income where marginal cost = marginal revenue, that doesn't say anything about how the income is used except maybe that further investment is pointless.

As investment no longer becomes rational and the bank account of the company becomes sufficiently large to guarantee stability, the income left to be paid as wages and dividends increases.

There is no reason to believe that a company that has no shareholders but its own employees would be more likely to achieve this state or more likely to endure.

In other words, there is no need for remote shareholders in this picture. It is neither here nor there.
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@fauxlaw

I'm not worth $300M, and I'm perfectly unhappy. How am I going to buy a foreign sex worker?
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If you are childless like HL Mincken, you can buy a lot of sex.
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@FLRW
I'm not worth $300M, and I'm perfectly unhappy. How am I going to buy a foreign sex worker?
I advise to realign your objectives, generally, because the wealth of $300M is squandered on a very temporary physical satisfaction, even it it can be repeated, but always at that price. An honest relationship with an honest partner to whom one another is devoted in honest love for one another will have the same experience, typically lasting longer than a brief, loveless encounter of such paultry worth for that purpose is had at no expense of a commodity any more expensive than that honest devotion to one another.

In other worse, keep your money, and your pants zipped, and seek to be acquainted with a partner of like mind and heart.

That is much more difficult, but ultimately more rewarding to both. My bride and I have been together for 53 years, and still as in love with one another as the first day.
Fortunate? No, a planned objective of like minds.
FLRW
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@fauxlaw


   Well stated.
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@FLRW
thanks. Good question.