Semantics aside, don't one-state Israelis and Palestinians generally want the same thing?

Author: Savant
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#1
Savant
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If Israel conquers Palestine and extends voting rights to Palestinians, then Israelis and Palestinians will collectively vote for a central government to decide on laws. If Palestine conquers Israel and extends voting rights to Israelis, then again, the government is collectively decided. Most one-state proponents seem mostly concerned with their country owning land and not as concerned with the logistics of the government, so democracy should be an acceptable compromise if it means they get one state.

So, let's say we combine Israel and Palestine into one democratic nation and let each side call it what they want. Israeli nationalists should support this, because it gives them what they want by another name. Same for many Palestinian nationalists. Achieving this diplomatically could probably ensure a stable government close to the democratic ideal I described above. Two-state proponents want both sides to have national sovereignty, which is achieved if everyone in the combined nation gets to vote.

Right now, this isn't feasible. However, I suspect that is because not much effort or political will is put into solving things this way. Only a quarter of Israelis and 35% of Palestinians support a one-state solution. Most of this seems due to logistics. Demanding that Israelis or Palestinians be guaranteed certain rights, for example. Yet with how much money is being put into military spending, how many missiles are being fired, etc. it seems like it's worth spending more time hammering out a constitution both sides can agree to.

If you're Israeli and don't support a one-state solution, what's your plan to winning against Hamas? It's pretty clear Israel doesn't want to do nothing, but if they conquer Palestine, we're back to the one state idea. If you don't like that Hamas breaks ceasefires, then you should want a unified government that can enforce terms.

If you're Palestinian, support democracy, and believe that "from the river to the sea, Palestine should be free," then isn't one state what you want? Wouldn't it be easier to achieve this through negotiations rather than warfare? Is it worth bombing Israel for decades just to call the country a different word?

Maybe one side wants to conquer the other and exclude them from voting, but I just see that causing more violence. Also, I don't think letting the other side vote would be that destructive anyway. The US even let West Germany and Japan hold elections after World War II.
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Shila
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@Savant
If you're Israeli and don't support a one-state solution, what's your plan to winning against Hamas? It's pretty clear Israel doesn't want to do nothing, but if they conquer Palestine, we're back to the one state idea. If you don't like that Hamas breaks ceasefires, then you should want a unified government that can enforce terms.

If you're Palestinian, support democracy, and believe that "from the river to the sea, Palestine should be free," then isn't one state what you want? Wouldn't it be easier to achieve this through negotiations rather than warfare? Is it worth bombing Israel for decades just to call the country a different word?
A two state solution is the only answer.
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@Shila
A two state solution is the only answer.
Well, aside from the hundred other solutions that have been proposed.
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@Savant
I dont know much about one state solution. It could be good, but I feel like Israel either wouldnt give Palestinians same rights either wouldnt agree to one state solution. Because population of Palestine and Israel is close in number. If Palestinians had equal rights, its possible they would even take over Israel with just their vote alone.
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@TheGreatSunGod
I dont know much about one state solution. It could be good, but I feel like Israel either wouldnt give Palestinians same rights either wouldnt agree to one state solution. Because population of Palestine and Israel is close in number. If Palestinians had equal rights, its possible they would even take over Israel with just their vote alone.
That's why you design a constitution to prevent power abuse from either side. Maybe elect 100 representatives in each country and allow the other country to eliminate 75 of them, resulting in 25 moderates from each side. Kind of like selecting a jury. And agree on amendments that guarantee rights to all groups.
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You are relying on asburd hypotheticals like:

If Israel conquers Palestine and extends voting rights to Palestinians, then Israelis and Palestinians will collectively vote for a central government to decide on laws. If Palestine conquers Israel and extends voting rights to Israelis
I mean...cool for a though experiment but there is no practical use to this.
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@Dr.Franklin
That's how ideas work. They're hypotheticals.
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@Savant
That's why you design a constitution to prevent power abuse from either side. Maybe elect 100 representatives in each country and allow the other country to eliminate 75 of them, resulting in 25 moderates from each side. Kind of like selecting a jury. And agree on amendments that guarantee rights to all groups.
That would work now. But the name of a country could be a problem here. It may not mean much to you, but Palestinians do really want it to be called Palestine, and Israeli want to call it Israel.
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@Savant
Cool but Im not interested
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Savant
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@TheGreatSunGod
 Palestinians do really want it to be called Palestine, and Israeli want to call it Israel.
Make it one word that's Palestine in Arabic and Israel in Hebrew. Or Israelistine.

Cool but Im not interested
Good thing there are other threads to comment on then.
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@Dr.Franklin
Sorry, forgot to tag you. You might not care, though, since my response was really just a flippant retort.
#12
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@Savant
Basically Israelites and Palestinians were the same thing.

Though these days, Jews and Palestinians are not necessarily the same thing as they were previously.

And we should all realise by now that a one State solution ain't never going to work, because it ain't what either side want.

For sure there are some good folk who would rather live a peaceful life...Problem is though  these sort of people don't call the shots...The shooting is generally inspired by theo-political nut jobs and carried out by gullible sycophants.

And of course, arms sales and the Eurovision Song Contest are big business...Middle eastern Transsexuals deserve a platform, don't they.

Clever stupid gene.
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@zedvictor4
Basically Israelites and Palestinians were the same thing.

Though these days, Jews and Palestinians are not necessarily the same thing as they were previously.

And we should all realise by now that a one State solution ain't never going to work, because it ain't what either side want.

For sure there are some good folk who would rather live a peaceful life...Problem is though  these sort of people don't call the shots...The shooting is generally inspired by theo-political nut jobs and carried out by gullible sycophants.

And of course, arms sales and the Eurovision Song Contest are big business...Middle eastern Transsexuals deserve a platform, don't they.

Clever stupid gene.
Just like you have two races Jews and Palestinians.A two state solution is the only answer.

two-state solution, proposed framework for resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict by establishing two states for two peoples: Israel for the Jewish people and Palestine for the Palestinian people. In 1993 the Israeli government and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) agreed on a plan to implement a two-state solution as part of the Oslo Accords, leading to the establishment of the Palestinian Authority (PA). As the only framework with bilateral and formal agreement, the two-state solution remains the consensus of the international community, although proposals for a one-state framework are often floated as an alternative.
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@zedvictor4
we should all realise by now that a one State solution ain't never going to work, because it ain't what either side want
The people shooting rockets at each other clearly aren't happy with a two state solution. Other than giving them one state with all the land, I'm struggling to imagine what would satisfy them.
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@Shila
@Savant
Well, the only solution is relocation of one group, and logistically that would be the Palestinians....Fat chance they would agree to that....And fat chance anyone else would want to do shares or neighbours with them.

Also fat chance that Israel would be willing to up sticks and start again....Though in the right place, they would perhaps be the better neighbours....Plenty of room in the Southern US for a Jewish homeland for example.

But of course there's all the Holy Land baloney to consider....And in this respect they all tend to be regressive thinkers rather than progressive ones.

And a shared border just inspires rocket men.

So as I see it, there isn't a solution, other than the one that the Israelis are currently working on....Which isn't a feasible solution...So not a solution.

Where to go?
#16
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@zedvictor4
So as I see it, there isn't a solution, other than the one that the Israelis are currently working on....Which isn't a feasible solution...So not a solution.

Where to go?
A two state solution guarantees the survival of the Jews. When were the Jews given such guarantees?
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@Shila
Yep, but we know that a two state solution is just a two state solution.

Are you saying that this is the best that can be hoped for?

You're probably right.
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@zedvictor4
Yep, but we know that a two state solution is just a two state solution.

Are you saying that this is the best that can be hoped for?

You're probably right.
If the Palestinians recognize the right of Jews to exist. A two state solution is the answer.
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@Shila
"If " is a two way label thing.
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@zedvictor4
"If " is a two way label thing.
It is better than what they currently have.
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@Shila
It is what they currently have, albeit somewhat chaotically.

Unfortunately I don't think that in this instance, common sense is going to prevail any time soon, unless one side relocates significantly...What are the chances of that?


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@zedvictor4
It is what they currently have, albeit somewhat chaotically.

Unfortunately I don't think that in this instance, common sense is going to prevail any time soon, unless one side relocates significantly...What are the chances of that?
The last time there was peace in the Middle East was when the Jews were displaced. There was peace in Europe after the Jews were displaced during the Holocaust. Today the Jews want a different solution.
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@Shila
Yep, a knee jerk reaction to WW2, resulted in poor international decision making and planning back in the latter half of the 1940's...Et voila.

Somewhat like the knee jerk reaction to events of 2001 have led two more decades of regional and wider chaos and resentment.

Short term gain, long term pain...Rather than the opposite...And we never learn.
#24
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This, and a hundred other similar arguments around the world would find solace and comfort, and the truth, by learning the real lesson taught at the Tower of Babel. I wondered for a long time why God should have confounded the tongues of the builders of that tower as a means of changing their paradigm. I suddenly realized the intent was to teach them a simple lesson: get along in spite of our differences. Learn to work together, live together, cry together, and rejoice together. We were all meant to sit around one table of plentiful joys and sorrows, and we're meant to enjoy them and overcome them working together. When we achieve that, we will finally understand what a generous and purposeful consequence it is. What a delight for the heart, mind, and soul. Then, all of us will sit at the grand table where all foods are enjoyed, all law respected, all hands joined, all cultures embraced, all languages interpreted, all skin colors celebrated, and all deities honored. What else could we ever want or need? Then, we will realize Jimmy Madison's dream, not for just the U.S.A.., but for the world, "a more perfect union." In fact, the perfect union.
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@zedvictor4
Yep, a knee jerk reaction to WW2, resulted in poor international decision making and planning back in the latter half of the 1940's...Et voila.

Somewhat like the knee jerk reaction to events of 2001 have led two more decades of regional and wider chaos and resentment.

Short term gain, long term pain...Rather than the opposite...And we never learn.
The problem is antisemitism and the Jews reaction to it.
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@Shila
As I always point out:

Semitic is a language, and not a Jewish exclusive.

Though the terminology gets sort of got co-opted, rather like the term Nazi.

So we choose sides in an argument and get labelled.

And  depending upon which side one chooses, the other side will label you with an appropriately derogative construct.

So an omnivore is a Nazi, and a vegans are lovelies.

Or a vegan is a twat, and an omnivore is a realist. 

Moderates sit on the fence and criticise both sides....Which probably makes them both antisemitic and a Nazi.

All in all it's a no win situation.
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@zedvictor4
All in all it's a no win situation.
When have the Jews ever been in a win win situation?