VTL Earth since we're approaching the end of the day phase.
Game Show Mafia DP1
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805
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@Savant
I want to re read and consider the fact he is being left alive for that reason. I do agree that at this point it’s almost a utility lynch for us. I just want to read some of this back with a different mindset first and see if I catch something. I now have a voice in my head saying no one is buying my case on this because they want to lynch him in later day phases. If they are saving him for later, it is dangerous.
I don’t think we can afford to many more claims so if we lock in on someone. That needs to be the person we yeet and again it needs to be of behavior. I want to see if I think there is a better option after I read it back with that mindset.
To note until I do that he is still my top choice. So leaving my vote there unless or until my opinion changes.
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@iamanabanana
So what makes it safe is how CCable it is? Let me ask, is people getting CC'ed a pretty common occurrence here? I think the last game was the first time I've seen someone actually get CC'ed. I technically CC'ed earth in russian mafia, but the mod admitted fault there for accidentally putting the phrase "first tsar" in two PM's.
Based on this response, I think you got what I meant by "safe." The long and short of it is that, yes, when you are claiming first, avoiding a CC is kind of the name of the game. It doesn't happen every time, but whether we're talking full on CCs or partial CCs, it's a common way that scum get spotted if they're forced to claim early. That's part of the reason that fake role claims matter so much. So, yes, I'm on the lookout for claims that might fit the bill of being something that feels like it was claimed to avoid a CC. That doesn't mean I'm scumreading him for that reason, but it's hard to ignore the possibility.
That being said, I've already mentioned as well that I would expect Earth to be a lot bolder with his role claim if he's just going for it. Maybe he'd do something like this, but that has not been my experience with him as scum in the past.
Maybe I am just being too harsh on my mikal read, but under the assumption that mikal is setting up targets he feels are easy mislynches, I am naturally going to be a little suspicious of anyone who is still scum reading earth based on anything mikal has said. When I was reading your reads last night, I saw him in your null pile and was trying to get in your head to understand how that happened, but with you agreeing with certain pieces of the pie logic, it was hard for me to wrap my ahead around how you arrived at the conclusion you did that earth was just "null" and it seemed kind of like an easy way to integrate yourself into the earth lynch if and when it may happen. I saw mharman also had left earth in the same spot, but I was looking at his thought processes to lead him there, and it didn't stand out to me as much so I didn't mention it.
I agree with certain parts of both Mikal's and Pie's logic, neither of them enough to pull me distinctly into either a town or a scumread. I have reasons why I lean each way that balance out to a null read because I don't yet know which to favor. He's not my priority this DP, but I'm also unable to remove him from my PoE.
So, is everyone just going to ignore Mharman's #680? I actually really want to push him for a claim now.
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@Casey_Risk
Ima be honest I thought he was going to type a follow up and was waiting to see what he said lol.
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@Mikal
I don’t think it’s a bad read I still think it felt like you were framing town credit. I already conceded to Casey this may be some weird site meta (I also have to check this later) but it just felt wrong.
You can literally verify this meta in 2 seconds by checking dp1 one of literally any of the recent games. Black ops was an exception because someone mentioned it wouldn't work for that theme for some reason.
Past that you are defensive as all hell. It’s like you are offended i am scum reading you and hyper focusing on me when other people are pointing out the same inconsistencies.
Defensive? I am just pointing out bad logic. Also name one other person who is "pointing out the same inconsistencies" weren't you just trying to use the argument that no one else was agreeing with you on your read? You can't have it both ways. You want to use ad populum fallacy, or play the victim that no one is agreeing with you which means your argument is more correct? Pick a lane buddy.
I notated very early on that I thought it was super weird you town read Moozer just because he was defending you (now your voting him or pushing him for a claim?)
What do you mean early on? I literally didn't put a read list up until late last night, and my vote was on moozer since the beginning of the day phase...Why are you blatantly lying now?
Your read on earth is largely based on my perception of him. It’s not a lazy analysis. It’s literal omgus which again is not AI.
I am not earth, so how is my defense of earth remotely related to the word omgus? See what I mean how you are just throwing out this word like it means something? It's a talking point, but you don't even seem to understand it since you are clearly using it incorrectly.
But just hyper fixating and basing a a majority of your reads on me all because I found your initial post as farming town cred is odd.
I am going to call bad logic out when I see it. You don't get an excuse because I have seen you make posts that use great logic, so I am left with the conclusion that you are doing this against people you think are easy to paint as mislynch targets. Pie pointed out the same thing, you aren't accusing him of being scummy for it lol.
You do realizing forcing claims just to force them is bad right?
I am not doing that. Moozer was absent most of the day phase, same with austin. At some point he will be the focus and if you wanna wait two and a half days in day phase 2 for him to finally claim, rather than getting it out of the way now, thats on you. Austin was forced to claim and he was just as inactive as moozer. It seems fair moozer would be held to the same standard.
Whoever we push this time needs to be who we kill unless there is some overwhelming claim that makes it logical not to do so. We can’t keep giving up free information.
Except we are no where near coming to a conclusion on who to lynch yet, you being absolutely unwilling to change your dumb reads is part of the problem.
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@Casey_Risk
I don't remember if its a common Mhar reaction, but I can see him getting frustrated if he gets pressured in a perceived BS way.
Official Vote Count:
Earth- 2/6- Mikal, savant
Moozer- 2/6- Wylted, Banana
Mharman- 2/6- Casey, whiteflame
15 hours remaining
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@iamanabanana
When I am at my computer I can flip back. I am not reading old dayphases or even old posts in this ok my phone. To much of a pita.
Off memory I believe whiteflame, Moozer and Casey have all said your recent posts and logic revolve around our interactions or you are just typing fluff and hyper fixating on my initial read. Maybe I’m off but again going off memory. I am saying at the time of you saying I was going for easy lynches, I was the only one scum reading you and the more you have continued to post. The more illogical some of your reads come off and people have been picking up on that as well.
Early on as in as very soon after you posted that and even before anyone mentioned it. It stuck out to me.
You are mad I’m scum reading you and framing your reads of other people off how they perceive you, perceive me, or based on my reads of those people. Omgus by definition because you are literally looking reasons to support your confirmation bias because I scum read you.
If you think it’s bad logic that’s fine. I disagree. I am correct that scum do what you did to farm town cred. The only varying factor on that is if it’s actually a meta on site which I have acknowledged at this point that if it is, it could be NAI. I have also said you are a gut read for me.
You are in fact doing that. You basically said he just needs to claim. I keep saying whoever we make claim needs to die off behavior. Having a claim just for the sake of a claim is not helping us because we are giving scum more info.
That is not an excuse just to make someone claim. I have said we need to pick a target and focus on it. You are not giving a reason why you want moozer to die. You are saying he just needs to claim. That’s dumb.
To add to that. You are saying Moozer needs to claim to claim in the sense of. Austin did so he should to. Wylted was either trying to force a scum slip and catch Austin off guard or is scum and was being opportunistic. I am not sure which. But no, just because that happened to Austin we don’t have to be consistent and do the same thing with Moozer. In fact we shouldn’t do that. Unless we are willing to kill him.
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@Earth
I don't remember if its a common Mhar reaction, but I can see him getting frustrated if he gets pressured in a perceived BS way.
Does he even clearly understand why he's being pressured, though? It doesn't seem that way, given that he said he was still catching up. Personally, I was instantly reminded of Mharman's behavior in Villainous Villains.
I was planning on rereading the DP, but I got busy and lost the motivation. Savant and Mikal are still ridiculous, but what will you do? Mharman's recent posts strike me as more frustrated than scumminess, but other wise I am neutral on him. Town block is still Casey and Savant. Nothing really changed for them since my last reads. While I might have gripes on Savant, he does try to scum hint and analyze the game, and Casey does the same. Ana is town in my eyes. I can tell Ana is trying to scumhunt and solve and while you can argue with whatever trival matter, she is trying.
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@Mikal
@iamanabanana
I wanna ask both of you a question. Assume, just for a moment, that both of you are town and Earth is also town. Who would your top scumread be in this scenario?
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@Casey_Risk
Does he even clearly understand why he's being pressured, though? It doesn't seem that way, given that he said he was still catching up. Personally, I was instantly reminded of Mharman's behavior in Villainous Villains.
I guess... Its NAI for me. Mharman is null for me. I'll vote for him to prevent a mislynch though. Once my day gets easier, I'll get the chance to articulate my scum reads.
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@WyIted
@iamanabanana
I can do it now if we get enough people to cooperate. It's only role confirmation, but you'd have to be a bastard mod IMO to make this a scum role. It's kinda like my escape artist role last game in that it could technically work as scum, but it defeats the purpose of the game by making scum harder to be lynched.
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@Earth
Mharman is null for me. I'll vote for him to prevent a mislynch though.
I'll vote for anyone to prevent a no-lynch, but unless he does something to change my mind, he's my main focus right now, and if he doesn’t get lynched today, he will remain that way.
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@iamanabanana
Meant to include my response to you in that last post. It's the worst possible defense a town player can make essentially. Everyone "knows" that they are town, but the rest of us don't know that. I can make the same defense now by saying "I know I'm town, so don't lynch me!"
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@Casey_Risk
That’s a tough question and something I’d have to really read back on. It would move my Poe block around.
Block in that scenario would be
Moozer
Wylted
Austin - assuming this role can be a scum role. Never seen it.
Mharm
To clarify this is largely off Poe. If you are saying gun to my head scum between that bunch. Probably Moozer or Wylted. The rest are valid choices but more off Poe. Read wise behavioral, it would be those two. I liked wylted pressure on Austin initially but I am really second guessing it internally as opportunistic.
again this is off Poe because I’m town reading others more than that list as well.
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@Mikal
The bottom three are there from POE because I think most others are currently more town or have reasons to trust them for the moment. Austin for example. We can confirm his role but that also is not AI.
My role is confirmable too, why am I in your bottom three?
To add to that I think it’s unlikely wylted and Austin are both scum. I think it’s one or the other. Tat interaction could have been faked and maybe they set it up but if one is scum, I think the other is town.
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@Moozer325
I am taking role confirmation as a lose justification atm. Austin is technically confirmable if he’s being truthful, so os earth but there are requirements around confirmable.
It also depends on whether it’s role confirmable or affiliation confirmable.
You are not in bottom 3 atm. Possibly bottom 4 or 5 He asked me to remove Ana and earth out of my Poe.
I’m arriving at you mostly from town reading others more than you. You and Mharm are in the same boat with me currently.
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@Mikal
When I am at my computer I can flip back. I am not reading old dayphases or even old posts in this ok my phone. To much of a pita.
You've been saying this for ages now, you aren't going to do it. So might as well just take the words of people saying this is a thing.
Off memory I believe whiteflame, Moozer and Casey have all said your recent posts and logic revolve around our interactions or you are just typing fluff and hyper fixating on my initial read.
I am not denying that a lot of my reads are based on people and their interactions with you. You are my strongest scum read, so how people treat you and react to you is extremely important in determining who your team is. No one is agreeing with your logic on your original reads though.
I am saying at the time of you saying I was going for easy lynches, I was the only one scum reading you and the more you have continued to post. The more illogical some of your reads come off and people have been picking up on that as well.
They didn't say they were illogical, just pointed out they were based around you, which I happily admit. Again if you are scum like I think you are, its important to judge your interactions with others to find your team.
Early on as in as very soon after you posted that and even before anyone mentioned it. It stuck out to me.
You found something to double down even more on, congratulations, more proof that your reads don't evolve or change when you think you have an easy mislynch in sight.
You are mad I’m scum reading you
lol you are projecting. Calling you out for bad reads doesn't mean I am mad about them. I am actually happy that I have a lead to go off of so thankyou.
And framing your reads of other people off how they perceive you, perceive me, or based on my reads of those people.
Thats literally how you scum hunt.
Omgus by definition because you are literally looking reasons to support your confirmation bias because I scum read you.
Talking about confirmation bias when your me and earth have been in every scum list of every read list you've posted is kind of hilariously hypocritical.
If you think it’s bad logic that’s fine. I disagree. I am correct that scum do what you did to farm town cred. The only varying factor on that is if it’s actually a meta on site which I have acknowledged at this point that if it is, it could be NAI. I have also said you are a gut read for me.
So you have time to write paragraphs to me, but don't have time to check one thread for 5 seconds to see if a meta exists or not. Interesting use of your time. It's like you are delaying purposely so you can keep me in your confirmation bias.
You are in fact doing that. You basically said he just needs to claim. I keep saying whoever we make claim needs to die off behavior. Having a claim just for the sake of a claim is not helping us because we are giving scum more info.
So if you read a cop scum behaviorally, your going to lynch him because we dont want to give scum more info?
That is not an excuse just to make someone claim. I have said we need to pick a target and focus on it. You are not giving a reason why you want moozer to die. You are saying he just needs to claim. That’s dumb.
I want to cross moozer off the list, the same way we have for austin. We can't do that if we are constantly waiting for him to post.
To add to that. You are saying Moozer needs to claim to claim in the sense of. Austin did so he should to. Wylted was either trying to force a scum slip and catch Austin off guard or is scum and was being opportunistic.
How are you able to speak for wylteds intentions? And even if you are correct why would that logic apply to austin and not moozer when both were equally inactive?
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@Mikal
So why is Austin more of a town read than me if we're both role confirmable?
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@Moozer325
I can do it now if we get enough people to cooperate. It's only role confirmation, but you'd have to be a bastard mod IMO to make this a scum role. It's kinda like my escape artist role last game in that it could technically work as scum, but it defeats the purpose of the game by making scum harder to be lynched.
That's actually good. That's a pretty hard soft claim so I am comfortable continuing with the plan.
Unvote VTL earth
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@Moozer325
Meant to include my response to you in that last post. It's the worst possible defense a town player can make essentially. Everyone "knows" that they are town, but the rest of us don't know that. I can make the same defense now by saying "I know I'm town, so don't lynch me!"
I didn't say that. I said that its a waste of time having to constantly defend myself against him when he's barraging me with paragraphs of posts repeating the same thing, "OMGUS!", and "Town cred!" The argument hasn't changed, and meanwhile its taking time from solving the game with other people and pressuring other roads.
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@iamanabanana
I get that he's pretty relentless with the same argument, but you wanted him to back off on the ground that you know you are town. I understand the first part, but then you use the worst justification for wanting him to back off.
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@WyIted
I wasn't exactly softing my role, I just compared it to the escape artist role in the sense that role confirmation is 95% of the way to affiliation confirmation.
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@Casey_Risk
I wanna ask both of you a question. Assume, just for a moment, that both of you are town and Earth is also town. Who would your top scumread be in this scenario?
My problem is I am town reading a lot of the active players. My read list had whiteflame, austin, wylted as potential scum, wylted being more null, but for trying to get people to out character information, austin for "I have to be town, I wouldnt do x and x otherwise" and whiteflame for positioning himself to bandwagon off of mikal. But admittedly multiple people are doing that now, so I can't really hold whiteflame more accountable for that than others. These are players I don't neccesarily want more information from, but would be willing to lynch. If there are any common demoninators here in this group of people that people are willing to lynch, I would support it. I don't know if I can get behind an earth lynch.
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@Moozer325
I get that he's pretty relentless with the same argument, but you wanted him to back off on the ground that you know you are town. I understand the first part, but then you use the worst justification for wanting him to back off.
I dis-agree.