the biggest plot hole in many religions

Author: FishChaser

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#1
FishChaser
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Several religions (particularly the Abrahamic ones) claim that God is benevolent. This is extremely inconsistent with the nature of reality as most experience it. Maybe you are reading this thinking "what do you mean? my life is great" and if that's the case I wouldn't be surprised if that's specifically because you deserve to suffer severely and people get the opposite of what they actually deserve. My life experience is so negative that I wouldn't be opposed to the idea that good things only exist to either tease/deceive people or to be given to people who deserve them the least. If you are so privileged that you can be blind to the suffering in the world good for you, I look at my own life and the lives of many others and see hell.

Many people will say that I deserve my life or that my life is some kind of test etc. I see such people as either privileged or cucks who gaslight themselves and others to have a positive view of what is clearly bad. For me to say "God is good" while living the life that I live would be the equivalent of a man sitting in the cuck chair watching his wife get fucked with a smile on his face. Anyone with a positive outlook on life was either handed things they don't deserve and should be suffering right now, or is a pathetic cuck stroking his dick to God's abuse. I don't give a fuck what you think I deserve, what you think I'm exaggerating or what you think the purpose of it is because unless you live my life you have no empathy for it.

When you look at the world objectively, the most natural conclusion is that either hard core materialist atheist nihilism is true or that gnosticism is true and God is a piece of shit on multiple levels.
#2
zedvictor4
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@FishChaser
The biggest plot hole is Mangod.

Because Mangod requires Mangod requires Mangod ad infinitum.

When actually, Mangod only requires Man.

Such are Mangod flaws.
#3
TheGreatSunGod
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@FishChaser
Evil must exist in order to give people actual choice. Most of evil in the world is the result of someone's choice. The rest is there just to remind humanity that good is much better than evil. You must know both to compare and choose. Also, God's mind is infinite while ours isnt. In this sense, God always knows better than us now. To claim we know better than God is an absurd claim.
#4
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@FishChaser
My life experience is so negative
So was mine for many years. I would say bad feelings still come from time to time now. Its best to find some way to make it better. One way is replacing your bad thougts with positive ones. Example, if you feel bad thoughts, just repeat good thoughts or prayers in your head until bad thoughts go away. Focusing on the negative just causes more pain there.
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#5
FishChaser
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@zedvictor4
If God isn't real explain why everything is designed to be as shitty as possible.
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#6
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@TheGreatSunGod
There is no such thing as free will and even if there was, why is everything disproportionately bad? Why is human nature and the nature of reality set up so that there is 99% bad and only 1% good?

Between being born with certain life experiences, IQ, EQ, culture, hormones etc. all of which affect your decisions and all of which you have no control over, what room is there for free will? If you actually look at the things that influence people's thoughts and actions you will see nothing but things people can't control. So the free will argument is just a way of saying "it's you're fault and you deserve it, God isn't torturing you, YOU are torturing yourself".

People who think that obviously deserve to have their fingernails ripped out with pliers and have bleach poured into the wounds and have bleach poured into their eyes and have their genitals sliced with razor blades and have bleach poured on those too after they are sliced and have battery acid injected into their nipples like an anti-stupid vaccine.
#7
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@FishChaser
There is no such thing as free will and even if there was, why is everything disproportionately bad?
I didnt say free will there. I just said choice. If you hold ability to choose as dear, then evil must exist for choice to exist. Choice isnt same as free will. Do you hold ability to choose as dear?

I dont think everything is disproportionately bad there. But most of the evil is caused by human choice now. So if people choose to do bad things, thats their choice still. God could have created only good people, but then humans wouldnt have any choice. They would be no different from slaves there. And if there is no choice, then that is evil, not good.
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#8
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@TheGreatSunGod
What is the value of a choice to do evil if it isn't a free will choice? 
#9
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@FishChaser
What is the value of a choice to do evil if it isn't a free will choice? 
It doesnt have to be a free will choice. Even if we take for granted that free will doesnt exist now, everyone still prefers to have a choice. Ask anyone. Ask yourself. Its not possible to prefer not to have a choice, because even that requires a choice.
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#10
FishChaser
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@TheGreatSunGod
The word choice is meaningless if there is no free will. It is just a deceptive way of saying you are predetermined and forced to do things. "I have a choice but I don't get to choose what my choices are". Yeah makes perfect sense. You don't have any control over anything and everything bad that happens is either God's fault or the result of cause and effect.
#11
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@FishChaser
Do you prefer to have a choice?

And if you are saying that you dont have a choice, then how can you choose to say that God is evil then? If you cant choose, then you cant choose that God is evil. You cant decide that because you lack choice to even do that. Labeling something as good or evil is an act of choosing.

And also, if you think free will cannot exist, then God cant have free will either. So God is then just like you there.

So again, your position here contains many flaws:
1. You think you know better than God, which is impossible
2. You think free will cannot exist, yet you think God has free will now
3. You say you dont have a choice, yet your whole argument is based on you choosing what you think is better.
4. You prefer to have a choice now. Everyone does. And generally, if things go as you wish them to, you would prefer that. So saying that you dont have any choice while making active choice and prefering some things over others is nonsense.
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#12
FishChaser
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@TheGreatSunGod
1: I don't need to have a choice to be endowed with the intelligence to recognize that God is evil.

2: "know better" implies that God's intentions are benevolent. I recognize that God knows way better than I do how to set up a reality that is as shitty as possible. I could never design a universe that is better at being horrible than the one God has made.

3: Maybe God doesn't have free will, but everything he creates he creates by his nature which is psychopathic.

4: I don't get what you're not understanding here. My brain has come to a conclusion based on it's intelligence and it's experiences, neither of which I chose to have.

5: I would prefer to have no choice but to be happy instead of having no choice but to be miserable, the latter of which is my current situation.
#13
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@FishChaser
1: I don't need to have a choice to be endowed with the intelligence to recognize that God is evil.
You need a choice to know what is better.


2: "know better" implies that God's intentions are benevolent. I recognize that God knows way better than I do how to set up a reality that is as shitty as possible. I could never design a universe that is better at being horrible than the one God has made.
Choosing is an act of deciding which option is better now. If you cant choose, then you cant know what is better now.

3: Maybe God doesn't have free will, but everything he creates he creates by his nature which is psychopathic
If God doesnt have free will, then its not his fault there.

4: I don't get what you're not understanding here. My brain has come to a conclusion based on it's intelligence and it's experiences, neither of which I chose to have.
Your brain came to conclusion based on a choice. You saw world, and compared it to world you imagined could exist, and chose that your imagined world is better. You chose that good is better than evil. If you dont actually have a choice, then you cannot choose that good is better than evil.

5: I would prefer to have no choice but to be happy instead of having no choice but to be miserable, the latter of which is my current situation
Prefering is an act of choice which you say you dont have now.
#14
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@FishChaser
1: I don't need to have a choice to be endowed with the intelligence to recognize that God is evil
Choosing to define evil as you do is also an act of choice.

#15
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@FishChaser
When you look at the world objectively, the most natural conclusion is that either hard core materialist atheist nihilism is true or that gnosticism is true and God is a piece of shit on multiple levels.
You get what you deserve.
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#16
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@Shila
You get the opposite of what you deserve. Why don't you go to africa and tell the starving children they deserve it you disgusting worthless piece of shit. You deserve to be dehumanized and stomped into dust.
#17
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@FishChaser
You get the opposite of what you deserve. Why don't you go to africa and tell the starving children they deserve it you disgusting worthless piece of shit. You deserve to be dehumanized and stomped into dust.
Why is Africa called the dark continent?

Africa is sometimes referred to as the "Dark Continent" due to historical perceptions of the continent's unknown or poorly understood nature, particularly by Europeans.
 
This term gained traction in the late 19th century, during a period of intense European exploration and colonization. 
The label reflects a lack of knowledge about Africa's diverse cultures, landscapes, and complex histories, and it has been used to justify colonialism and the exploitation of African resources.
 




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#18
FishChaser
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@Shila
You are a female who was raised in a western nation, and you are presumably neurotypical and not raised in a poor family etc. This tells me you have probably had an extremely easy life and have no empathy for anyone who has real problems. To you other people's suffering is a joke. you come here just to trigger me and then go back to your life where you are handed everything even though you don't have a shred of intelligence or value as a human being and have never done anything of merit.

So thank you for proving my point that everyone gets the direct opposite of what they deserve, if that wasn't the case you would be in hell right now.

#19
IlDiavolo
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May I know what is making you suffer so much?

Your profile says you're in Israel. Are you involved in this conflict with Palestinians?
#20
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@TheGreatSunGod
(I have permission from Whiteflame to post to threads if I don't address OP)

What you are wrong on is that you suggest it doesn't matter if God lacks free will. It does, massively.

If God itself is a nonfreewill agent, we are actually more deistic than Theistic even if we are strongly Theistic otherwise. My former pagan outlook was such and was panentheistic sort of, like Hinduism is.

I used to believe that we are inside of God itself and that God is as helpless as us to its/her/his own loneliness etc.

I do not fully know if Yhwh was lonely. What I know is Yhwh is not the former God I believed in. Yhwh has true free will and made us because he wanted to. That alone means we owe him to even exist. The position of people who oppose God being good completely ignore that we owe God for every facet of our existence. God could easily, oh so easily, delete us, suffocate us, whatever he pleases. He chooses not to. This also explains why he doesn't uncreate the Hitlers and Stalins instantly either.

The reality is that we owe God for everything. Every breathe we take, every move we make he is watching us (yes it is a song reference) and he made us to have the privilege to experience it. Even agony is a privilege to experience, we could be deleted, annihilated if God wanted to. He allows us to exist. He made our souls. He made our bodies. Do you realise the privilege?

Even the privilege to cry, to feel pain... Imagine you were denied any existence.
#21
Shila
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@FishChaser
So thank you for proving my point that everyone gets the direct opposite of what they deserve, if that wasn't the case you would be in hell right now.
I got what I deserved by earning it.
#22
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@AdaptableRatman
My argument was about his goalpost.

He claims free will cannot exist.

If that is true, then God cannot have free will.

If God doesnt have free will, then God cannot even be evil.

If God cannot be evil, he can only be non-evil or good.

It wasnt that I agree with his goalpost there, I just show where his goalpost leads.
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Shila
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@TheGreatSunGod
My argument was about his goalpost.

He claims free will cannot exist.

If that is true, then God cannot have free will.

If God doesnt have free will, then God cannot even be evil.

If God cannot be evil, he can only be non-evil or good.

It wasnt that I agree with his goalpost there, I just show where his goalpost leads.
You are following his shifting goal post.
#24
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@TheGreatSunGod
Why can't you be evil with restricted will?
#25
IlDiavolo
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@TheGreatSunGod
Focusing on the negative just causes more pain there.
That is a good tip.
#26
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@AdaptableRatman
Why can't you be evil with restricted will?
He said that you cant, that its not your fault if you dont have free will. Again, I was merely showing him his own logic here.

I do think that person's choice can be evil even if person doesnt have all knowledge. To claim otherwise would yield some absurd results.

Choice by definition means choosing between multiple options.

If a person chooses a more evil option, then his will is more evil. And that will is true him.
#27
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@TheGreatSunGod
Search Thomism, it explains Chrustianity's will and predestination concept a lot better than Calvinism.

Calvinism is what many who hate God believe in and what many Muslim Sunnis believe in. It states God dooms you from birth or guarantees you end in heaven from birth and basically rigs your life. Such Calvinists think they are Christians but they deny the Bible if they think salvation is out of our ability to choose to receive and work with God to get.

Thomism is complex. In essence it suggests God does let free will and randomness exist but funnily enough the more you accept salvation and submit to his will, the less free your will becomes yet you have a far better afterlife because the idea is he leads the believers and lets disbelievers do their own thing.
#28
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@IlDiavolo
Focusing on the negative just causes more pain there.

That is a good tip.
Yeah, its actually crucial. Modern psychology teaches people to talk about all the problems, which often turns into just complaining then. I have actually been to online therapy and complaining there is unbearable. Basically 95% of it is just negative talk. The reason why religion helps with depression while psychology doesnt is very simple. In religion, you dont always complain. You are grateful for both the good and the bad. You pray and ask God for help instead of doing endless complaining. You are not going to make bad things go away by talking about them all the time. You make them go away by focusing on good things, divine things which cause greater happiness.
#29
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@AdaptableRatman
Calvinism is what many who hate god believe in and what many Muslim Sunnis believe in. It states God dooms you from birth or guarantees you end in heaven from birth and basically rigs your life.
If God controls everyone's choice, then everyone is basically God's property now and you are not even you. And God has right to do with his property as he pleases.

There is a lot of similar argument trees, but they are all self-defeating. If free will exists, God is good then. If free will doesnt exist, then God is still good.

Almost all evil in the world is the result of human choice. Humans chose evil and then blame God for their choice. Its like me punching myself in the face and claiming God made me do it and that I dont want to punch myself in the face there now.

God literally lets people disobey God. And they then claim God made them disobey God now.

Its a very strange way in which they think.

How do you even convince someone who thinks he has no choice?
#30
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@TheGreatSunGod
Yes.

This is also why Jews and Muslims both mock the idea of Satan being a fallen angel.

To them, Jews deny devil being possible as for them all is of Yhwh's will (in a way Jews are panentheist) whereas for Muslims, Iblis and the Shaitan(s) as in when Djinn act for Iblis' will, it is all by Allah's command. The Christians are the only ones who think Demons and Angels have any free will, let alone humans.