"We're Going After Criminals"

Author: Double_R

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#31
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@Double_R
The central point made in the op is that the Trump administration and it's supporters are dishonest when they pretend all of this immigration theater is about deporting criminals. 
And you made this point by citing a recent ruling that allows ICE to enter a school to arrest a criminal so.......
#32
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@Double_R
There is a right and a wrong means to enter the US, and that means is posted along both northern and southern borders as fair notice. Let then enter so legally [that may require a wait, but the law is clear], and all is fine. Not, then let them face the consequences. That's due process, in a nutshell. Found here illegally, and beyond the border into the interior of the US, and ICE is authorized to enter places you suggest, wave goodbye. got a problem with that? Sanctuary is not a legal excuse, regardless what people, and even local governments believe.
#33
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The administration never made that commitment and why would they? As I understood it, violent criminals will be prioritized first (of which there’s a truly shocking amount, thank you democrats), then people who already have a final order of removal but nobody here illegally is “off the table” 

Why would it be any other way? Why would any country tolerate millions of people being there illegally? They aren’t welcome here and they all have to go back. 
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#34
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@WyIted
And you made this point by citing a recent ruling that allows ICE to enter a school to arrest a criminal so.......
If your focus is on purging criminals you wouldn't be setting yourself up to raid schools and churches. Whether that has happened yet is irrelevant. The whole point of these restrictions is to give all Americans a sense of peace that they can worship and send their kids to school without worrying about them or their children getting caught up in an ice raid. Getting rid of that rule comes at that cost, and you don't pay for something you have no intention of using.

In the early days of this administration there were reports of a school being raided and it caused an uproar. This is a game Trump knows how to play, he knows as long as he keeps ratcheting up the pressure the Overton window will shift and people will lose their outrage. If and when that happens, he will try again. The fact that he got rid of that rules tells us that loud and clear.
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#35
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@fauxlaw
If there's a point of mine you were attempting to refute please let me know.

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#36
Double_R
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@thett3
The administration never made that commitment and why would they? As I understood it, violent criminals will be prioritized first (of which there’s a truly shocking amount, thank you democrats), then people who already have a final order of removal but nobody here illegally is “off the table” 
First off, a shocking amount of illegal violent criminals? Do you have any data on that? It's kind of an odd thing to claim given that undocumented immigrants are statistically the most law abiding group in the United States.

Second, I'm not claiming there was some explicit commitment by the US to lay off of non criminal immigrants. I'm pointing to the fact that the Trump campaign made it explicitly clear that the reason why we need to focus so heavily on illegal immigration is because of the violent drug dealers laced all the throughout our society. And if that's what you really care about, and that's what's driving your focus on this, you wouldn't be raiding home depot's.

If you don't care about whether they're criminals and just want them all out that's fine, make that case. Stop pretending that this is about crime and drugs and tell us what you believe with your chest. That's the point.
#37
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@Double_R
There is. We have sovereignty. meaning we have border-crosdsiong restrictions, so just by crossing the border improperly is, its;f, a criminal behavior without doing another bloody thing. This president is on favor of correcting criminal behavior because that is his job as chief executive. In the case of illegal entry into the country, you remove them from the cu try to do it correctly, you do not use tax revenue to keep them here. Biden did not agree, and that's on him.
#38
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@Double_R
First off, a shocking amount of illegal violent criminals? Do you have any data on that? It's kind of an odd thing to claim given that undocumented immigrants are statistically the most law abiding group in the United States.
I follow accounts such as DHS or ICE spokespeople who will detail the violent crimes many of the people they detain, and its just murderer after murderer, rapist after rapist, extortionist after extortionist. In many cases they’re intentionally seeking out criminals but it’s still shocking to see. The number of immigrants who are violent criminals should be close to zero for obvious reasons. We have a choice in who we allow into our country!

The claim that illegal immigrants are “the most law abiding group in the United States” is not very strong—there are some studies that try to determine their crime rate but they don’t actually analyze a persons legal status, they try to make estimates via proxies—and frankly the people who have done those studies (such as Alex  Nowrasteh) are pretty naked open borders propagandists. Everyone who lives in an area with lots of illegal immigrants knows they’re constantly arrested for drunk driving, they drive without insurance, they litter absolutely non stop, etc. The idea that illegal immigrants are less criminal or better to live around than say legal Asian immigrants or native born white people doesn’t pass the smell test at all.

Still I’m happy to concede that millions of people who are here illegally who have committed no other crime, part of me does have some sympathy for them on a human level but they need to take the self deportation deal. No country can sustain these type of numbers and it’s incredibly, INCREDIBLY unfair to everyone else. 

If you don't care about whether they're criminals and just want them all out that's fine, make that case. Stop pretending that this is about crime and drugs and tell us what you believe with your chest. That's the point.
That is my belief. They all need to go back regardless of their behavior after choosing to illegally immigrate to our country. Obviously some cases are worse than others (such as the organized crime Biden invited here from Venezuela) but all illegals have to go back regardless 
#39
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@Double_R
If your focus is on purging criminals you wouldn't be setting yourself up to raid schools and churches.
If you focus on purging criminals you would allow churches and schools around vulnerable populations to be safe havens for them?
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#40
Double_R
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@fauxlaw
There is. We have sovereignty. meaning we have border-crosdsiong restrictions, so just by crossing the border improperly is, its;f, a criminal behavior without doing another bloody thing. This president is on favor of correcting criminal behavior because that is his job as chief executive.
So your argument is that we need to remove every illegal alien we can find because they're criminals. And why are they criminals? Because we criminalized the means by which they got here.

Sure, that works logically, it's just utterly meaningless.

Not to mention dishonest. The reason the word criminal carries weight is because of what kind of offenders it typically refers to; bank robbers, assaulters, human traffickers, etc. So when you throw that word around to describe these people you are smuggling in that negative emotional connotation even though it is not at all warranted. If you had a better argument I suspect you would not resort to this.

In the case of illegal entry into the country, you remove them from the cu try to do it correctly, you do not use tax revenue to keep them here.
As a whole, illegal immigrants are a net positive on the economy and Treasury. They pay taxes and yet do not get the benefits that citizens are entitled to. Removing them from the country will cost us, and that's before we consider the actual cost of conducting ice raids all over the country.
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#41
Double_R
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@thett3
I follow accounts such as DHS or ICE spokespeople who will detail the violent crimes many of the people they detain, and its just murderer after murderer, rapist after rapist, extortionist after extortionist. In many cases they’re intentionally seeking out criminals but it’s still shocking to see.
I'm sure I don't have to explain to you what anecdotal evidence is and why out is not an acceptable basis for a rational conclusion.

This is the same exact thing BLM does by posting the story of every unarmed black man who is killed by a police officer. Their conclusion is that there is an epidemic in this country of police killing black men, but I suspect you don't share that conclusion despite using the exact same argument.

Everyone who lives in an area with lots of illegal immigrants knows they’re constantly arrested for drunk driving
If that were accurate we wouldn't need to live in an area with lots of illegal immigrants, the arrest records would shows this and this would be wall to wall coverage on Fox news. Yet we don't see that anywhere.

The idea that illegal immigrants are less criminal or better to live around than say legal Asian immigrants or native born white people doesn’t pass the smell test at all.
I'm not about to get into a studies debate, I think we both know that would be pointless. But if we want to just step back and ask ourselves in the abstract which narrative makes more sense, it's absurd to claim illegal immigrants would commit more crimes than US born citizens. If you get arrested for shoplifting or assault, what's your punishment? Probation? A few months or possibly even years in jail? Illegal immigrants face all of that with the added risk of being thrown out of the country they have settled in as their home. Most of which were fleeing poverty and far worse violence and gave up their entire lives to be here. Why would these people en masse risk all of that? It defies common sense.

If you are in a country illegally the last thing you would want to do is draw attention to yourself. Breaking the law is the opposite of that.

That is my belief. They all need to go back regardless of their behavior after choosing to illegally immigrate to our country. 
Ok, appreciate the straightforwardness. But why? Why do you put being here illegally on par with anything we would normally think of when we hear the word crime? And why do you think we should be focusing on this issue over the multitude of other problems we have?

My issue is not that I think you're wrong, it's that I can't find any other justification for the focus and drive on this issue other than bigotry. If someone is living here for years, working, paying taxes, and not committing crimes... Why not leave them alone? How is your life getting better by rounding these people up at home depot's and deporting them?
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#42
Double_R
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@WyIted
If you focus on purging criminals you would allow churches and schools around vulnerable populations to be safe havens for them?
Yeah, there it is again - conflating criminals and undocumented immigrants. Bigotry is not an argument.
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#43
Double_R
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@thett3
Here's something Trump had to say yesterday:

"Our farmers are being hurt badly," Trump said during an event in the White House East Room when asked about his position. "You know, they have very good workers. They've worked for them for 20 years. They're not citizens, but they've turned out to be, you know, great."

Trump said he plans to sign an executive order to address the situation, adding that it will take a "common sense" approach. "We can't take farmers, take all their people and send them back because they don't have maybe what they're supposed to have, maybe not," Trump said."

Looks like he just figured out what everyone has been telling him for years.

I know you're not exactly a Trump fan so I don't say this as an attack on your position, but how can anyone not see that this is the stupidest president we've ever had?
#44
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@Double_R
All that is argument, but it ignores several factors
1. Most countries are not as willing to accept immigrants as we are, as long as it is done legally.
2. We do have long-standing law prohibiting crossing the border without a check-in to border patrol,  period. A violator of that law is, definition, criminal, before they do anything else. 
period.
3. We have the sovereign right to establish whatever we want as immigration policy and statute. Does someone else own our sovereignty? No. Just because 
Oba'a and Biden failed at border security does not mean that is the standard.
4. And yes, illegals are seeing due process. Nothing says that due process is applied individually so one court case equals one defendant. And, when that case is called, and the defendant does not show up on their choice, alone, the case proceeds in their absence. They have responsibility to appear to take advantage of their due process. If they don't, we do not have the luxury to play their games. It's our sovereignty; our game.
5. 'Criminal' has many comnnotations from jaywalking to murder. Don't try to parse it by tugging heartstrings to me. No play, here. I know the law, and it is applied as fairly as possible un Der invasive circumstances. We do have a legal system of immigration, and people who abuse it spoil it for others trying to use it legally. 
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#45
Double_R
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@fauxlaw
1. And yet we became the most powerful nation on earth, so what's your point?

2. Tautology true, therefore meaningless. What's your point? Do you have a response to my last post which addressed this directly?

3. Irrelevant to every point raised in this thread

4. Due process is a whole different conversation
#46
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@Double_R
but how can anyone not see that this is the stupidest president we've ever had?
I think that distinction of dumbest president ever belongs to James Buchanan [D] 1857-1861, who may have single-handedly handed us the Civil War. He vowed not to run for re-election. That's certainly, political dumb, but it was worse than that. He was too stupid to know what a mess he made of things, kind of like Biden, but, again, Buccie was worse. He was never satisfied unless he had a drink in his hand. When things at Fort Sumpter began to heat up, he never sent federal troops [Article IV]] to protect it or the people, and that location, of course, was the powder keg of the Civil War. Very convenient that he walked away from it all, drunk as a skunk.  He was carried out of the What  House, the moniker I gave it when Biden moved in, but Buccie deserved it more.
#47
fauxlaw
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@Double_R
Re; your #45

1. Dd I ever say we were not a nation strengthened by our immigration practices? No. I'm the descendent of an immigrant in 1625, a Scot from France as a boy who then came to America in his early 20s before it was that. Started an iron foundry in ME.

2. Tautology aside, the fact is true: We have immigration law, and it is being ignored. Time to stop being ignorant.

3, Am I obligated to sustain only previous threads? Nope, this is a site dedicated to the free exchange of ideas, even those not brought up in a string previously, thank you. Your rules? So, abide by them. Sorry, they're not mine.

4. Due process is a part of virtually any conversation. Have you no idea that the concept of due process was already in discussion around 3100 B.C.E in ancient Egypt? Fact. It's part and parcel of the "Spells of Coming Forth by Day," better known now as the "Egyptian Book of the Dead," which I read in the original hieroglyphs. They called it things like "Not have I fouled water," as a metaphor, but the concept in mature thinking is not in just civil society, but in the safe passage of the souls of the dead.
#48
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@Double_R
Ok, appreciate the straightforwardness. But why? Why do you put being here illegally on par with anything we would normally think of when we hear the word crime? And why do you think we should be focusing on this issue over the multitude of other problems we have?

My issue is not that I think you're wrong, it's that I can't find any other justification for the focus and drive on this issue other than bigotry. If someone is living here for years, working, paying taxes, and not committing crimes... Why not leave them alone? How is your life getting better by rounding these people up at home depot's and deporting them?
I’ll answer this bc honestly this is the real issue and I’ve been wanting to get my thoughts off my chest somewhere…I DONT think that illegally immigrating to another country is as serious as violent crime. However I also don’t think that being sent back to your country of citizenship is in any way a punishment or a violation of rights or whatever. If I went to China, or Germany, or Mexico, or any other country and overstayed my visa I can’t get mad at them for kicking me out. That’s completely justified on their part. 

Why not just leave them alone? It’s an absurdity that people have been here illegally for years or decades. Unless one is in favor of full blown open borders that should NEVER HAVE HAPPENED. Birthright citizenship makes it even worse because now it’s permanent. Enough. We have laws, it’s time for them to be enforced and after that if we decide democratically as a society that immigration policy should be changed then congress should change it. I do feel bad for people who have been here a long time and especially their kids. If I were dictator I actually would show them mercy and let many of them stay. But I’m not, and the only way we get serious border control in the future given that Dems have lied and cheated republicans on this issue for years (see Reagan’s amnesty) is to demonstrate that we’re serious this time around and force the left to come to the negotiating table in good faith. We got probably around 10 million illegal immigrants just in the past four years. It MUST stop. 

And yes I do have reasons you’d probably consider bigotry. If I’m being honest, and I’ve lived in areas with large immigrant populations my entire life…. I don’t like most immigrant cultures. I think they’re obnoxious, uncomfortable to be around, and they change society for the worse, at least according to my preferences. I don’t like the fact that my property tax dollars go towards teaching English to and educating the children of people who should not even be here. I don’t like that the local parks in my area are trashed by immigrants who refuse to use trash cans literally every weekend to the point that we have to hire contractors at the expense of the groups of people who don’t litter. I do not like interacting with people from low trust cultures who may and have used what I consider to be one of my best traits (honesty) against me. I do not like that they choose to blare loud music at all hours and couldn’t give less of a shit about the fact that people need to sleep and go to work in the morning. I fundamentally disagree with the premise that having preferences about the cultural trajectory of society is inherently immoral even if it’s uncomfortable to talk about or hurts people’s feelings. 

The economic arguments for immigration are extremely strong on paper, but when you look at similar countries that have had sudden large increases in immigration (like Canada, the UK, arguably the US 2021-2023) the results are catastrophic. I’m not sure why this is the case. My overall thought is that immigrants spur both the supply and the demand for basically everything economically and whether that benefits you entirely depends on your specific situation but is overall a wash. And that culturally outside of outliers (and “chooses to illegally immigrate”  or “downloads an app on phone” isn’t a good selection process to get positive outliers) the average impact of any given immigrant is to make society more like the country they came from. This seems self evident to me and when you’re talking about taking in people from places like Haiti that’s extremely concerning. 

Shut the border down, send them back. If it turns out to be a catastrophe then I know millions of people would be happy to immigrate here and we can allow that to happen. 
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#49
Double_R
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@thett3
I DONT think that illegally immigrating to another country is as serious as violent crime. However I also don’t think that being sent back to your country of citizenship is in any way a punishment or a violation of rights or whatever.
Whether you want to call it punishment, violation of rights, or something more benign is irrelevant. Deporting someone is a depravation of what that person currently has, you cannot rationally or rightfully support that without some underlying reason, a mere technicality of whether that person is here lawfully fails.

If you want to argue that it's harmful for these people to remain here, fine. If you want to argue that these people deserve it, fine. But argue something. This point works on paper but is just meaningless.

We have laws, it’s time for them to be enforced and after that if we decide democratically as a society that immigration policy should be changed then congress should change it.
We had a change, Trump blew it up. Regardless, the question here is not whether we should enforce our laws, the question here is how much focus and say what cost are we going to do so. It's about priorities as we weigh the pros and cons. Trump has made, and you support, a high priority to round up millions of these people, with no benefit to the economy, with no benefit to the Treasury, with no benefit to public safety, and at great human suffering, for what? The satisfaction of being able to say "that's the law"? Why? I still haven't found an answer.

Why not just leave them alone? It’s an absurdity that people have been here illegally for years or decades. Unless one is in favor of full blown open borders that should NEVER HAVE HAPPENED.
What should have happened is irrelevant. The only question that matters is what do we do about it now?

The economic arguments for immigration are extremely strong on paper, but when you look at similar countries that have had sudden large increases in immigration (like Canada, the UK, arguably the US 2021-2023) the results are catastrophic.
Why are you linking post COVID economic conditions to immigration?

And yes I do have reasons you’d probably consider bigotry
This is the only thing that makes sense to me. Look I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm genuinely trying to understand if there is some other reason people have for their intense focus on this issue, I just can't find one. I would love to think better of people, I'm just waiting for someone to provide me a reason to.

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#50
Double_R
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@fauxlaw
Tautology aside, the fact is true: We have immigration law, and it is being ignored
It's not being ignored, it's being abused. That's why Congress worked out an immigration bill last year and Trump killed it, because he doesn't care about the issue, all he cares about is pounding his chest.

Migrants have a legal right to seek asylum, and we have a legal obligation to process those claims. Ironically, that's what's being ignored now. Also ironically, the reason this is being abused to badly. They've always had a right to seek asylum, it wasn't till Trump made it a campaign talking point that the entire world caught on which helped to fuel the rise in asylum claims we've seen. So in typical fashion, Trump helped to create the very problem he now wants credit for fixing, even after stopping the actual fix.
#51
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@Double_R
Whether you want to call it punishment, violation of rights, or something more benign is irrelevant. Deporting someone is a depravation of what that person currently has, you cannot rationally or rightfully support that without some underlying reason, a mere technicality of whether that person is here lawfully fails.
A technicality?? Legal status is not a “technicality” and “you’re here illegally” is a perfectly valid reason to send someone back where they came from.  I can’t illegally immigrate to any other country and demand permanent residence because I might get my feelings hurt otherwise. That’s so grotesque and obscene that I can’t imagine EVER doing something that entitled. Thinking about doing that makes me dislike illegal immigrants even more. 

You are the one who needs to provide me a reason why I should support people being here illegally, often at my expense (certainly I am on the hook for paying for their kids when they’re unable to), and from groups I think negatively impact the culture.

This is the only thing that makes sense to me. Look I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm genuinely trying to understand if there is some other reason people have for their intense focus on this issue, I just can't find one. I would love to think better of people, I'm just waiting for someone to provide me a reason to

Fundamental disagreement. I don’t think “hmm I don’t really like the culture of this group of people, I don’t think we need more of them coming into the country” is something immoral. 

You should be able to understand this because you’ve made it abundantly clear by your posts over the years that you dislike white people. Is it that difficult to imagine that other people might dislike other cultures? I just don’t understand why we need hundreds of thousands or millions of people from places like Haiti, Afghanistan, etc

#52
fauxlaw
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@Double_R
You are correct that current law was being abused, but what the hell does re-legislation accomplish? Congress has already, years ago, legislated. The system isn't broken because the law is broken, it's broken because the executive in the former administration refused to enforce the law. Hell, Biden thoughts he ran for US Senate. HGe said it enough in his 2020 campaign, and several times referred to Harris as 'the president.
"
when are you goings to admit thins guy was old toast? That's what Trump is doing. Endforcement. Get it?
#53
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@fauxlaw
Trump didn't end a bipartisan immigration bill, he ended a bipartisan amnesty bill.

Huge difference with far separate consequences.

Calling it a bipartisan “immigration bill” blurs that law and implies broader consensus than actually existed. Calling it a “bipartisan amnesty bill” makes Trump's political resistance  much easier to understand, even if you don’t agree with it. It's like labelling people who overstay visas as "undocumented" when the opposite is true, as a visa IS in fact, documentation. Clarity comes with honesty.

#54
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 Jurors in the New York criminal trial against former President Donald Trump have convicted him of 34 felony counts of falsified business records.
Isn't Trump a criminal?
#55
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Fake judges didn't sentence Trump because then he would then no longer be a criminal after the appeal.

The real judges then elected him as president.

And when Americans saw the show trial, the weaponized court, and the desperate smear...
They handed down their verdict: President Trump.

Trump won on that appeal. Democracy is the highest authority in the land. No Kings in robes.

#56
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A Manhattan federal jury found that Donald Trump sexually abused E. Jean Carroll in a luxury department store dressing room in the spring of 1996 and awarded her $5 million.
#57
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An American Jury found Trump, President of the USA.

Trump won on that appeal as well. Democracy is the highest authority in the land. No Kings in robes. No oligarchies of TDS Manhattan juries. No legal necromancy of limited statutes can supersede American Democracy.
 

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#58
Double_R
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@thett3
A technicality?? Legal status is not a “technicality” and “you’re here illegally” is a perfectly valid reason to send someone back where they came from...

You are the one who needs to provide me a reason why I should support people being here illegally
It appears you did not absorb what I wrote. Let me repeat:

the question here is not whether we should enforce our laws, the question here is how much focus and [at] what cost are we going to do so. It's about priorities as we weigh the pros and cons. Trump has made, and you support, a high priority to round up millions of these people, with no benefit to the economy, with no benefit to the Treasury, with no benefit to public safety, and at great human suffering, for what?
My point wasn't that being here illegally wasn't a reason to send someone back. I'm talking about making it a national priority to engage in mass mobilization. I'm talking about the fact that everytime the right and left come together to debate politics, immigration is always front and center in that conversation over a multitude of other issues we could be addressing. My question to you and every other right wing immigration enthusiast is why this issue is so important to you?

For me, my position is that we have way bigger things to worry about than how many brown people are here. If these people were en masse not contributing to the economy, I would care. They are. If these people were en masse not respecting their communities by violating laws (other than existing here), I would care. They are.

So why do you care? Because they are according to the law, illegal? Do you care about other illegal things going on? Do you care about the recent slew of Trump pardons for people who committed actual, real crimes that actually hurt people? Do you care about the fact that Trump is violating the laws we have in place which provides limitations on when the president can federalize the national guard or deploy the US military on our streets? Did you care when Kilmar Abrego Garcia's rights to due process were violated?

I suspect you don't care about any of that, certainly not as much as you care about this. Why? If following the law is your true value then you would care about all of it just the same.

This is not a conversation about whether we believe in legality, it's about values.

You should be able to understand this because you’ve made it abundantly clear by your posts over the years that you dislike white people.
lol wow, that's just silly.

I tend to be very critical of white people, particularly in most matters of racial tension because I find that white people tend to have a very self centered viewpoint which fails to recognize what it's like to not be white. That is very different from disliking white people. I also abhor MAGA which is just factually dominantly white, but my abhorrence there is purely ideological, not racial as it applies just the same to anyone who shares it. I just find it more understandable when it's a white person.

Earlier in my life I held most if not maybe even all of the biases against people of other races that I imply you or the rest of MAGA hold. I would have chosen a room full of white people over a mixed room any day. But then I learned and I adjusted my views accordingly.

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 Hmmmmm!
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OMG, is Gp AI generated?