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@David
also, if there's an option to edit the msg we send to the other person, n also that we're able to delete it if we want.... that would be helpful....// meow
Major site updates
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@vi_777
Yeah, and David did say other have had the same issues, so it could be some site glitch, after all.
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@LucyStarfire
How long do you think til they ban you again?
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@Barney
You've likely seen moderation get behind, and that is with a much better ratio than 1 to 100. The problem is this is a debate site, so active users like to argue.
Sure, that is why. It has nothing to do with the mods. (Major sarcasm)
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@Mall
How long do you think til they ban you again?
I dont know. Whiteflame probably wont ban me, but David sure might.
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@AdaptableRatman
Case in point... That said, you are correct that it is not the only problem; which was not my intent to imply, but I can see how it could be fairly taken that way. I ought to have specified a major problem, instead of the problem.
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@Barney
Buddy, you are weak against loud members and you deeply resent that I am not.
I say that with respect as you can do better.
You say serve, not rule. Yet police are irl moderators and they serve by enforcing rules for the sake of law and order.
Where you all went wrong is you forgot both. Meanwhile you focus 100% on law in your minds and not on order itself.
You will never ever tame this userbase unless you come down on them as a force to be reckoned with. I promise you that. I can play nice mod later, not at first.
I know exactly how to deal with different personality types here differently. Some need the instant ban to tame them, others need care, tenderness and to see I will enforce both for their protection and against their wrongdoing.
If you had not backstabbed me and instead rolled with me, let David be in charge and humbled Whiteflame, you would not see what I presume is Wylted on his racist blackface womanface alt right now openly abusing rules on multiple levels.
If you seriously want law and order here, you do not send in a wimp. Period.
@Adaptable
If you become moderator, I will seriously quit the site. I cant handle fussy people who will police my every comment. I assume about 10 other users will quit too. But if all goes well and site improves, I guess I could return to advertising it on my YouTube.
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@Barney
I do find myself wondering. What were your feelings that led you to promote Adaptable, and what are your feelings after?
Full clarification would help avoid unnecessary confusion. You're sending mixed signals here.
On one hand, it was your idea to make him a mod, but you chose to gatekeep certain perms, and the official title. Denying him even access to the chats.
Implying you don't fully trust him.
What doesn't add up is you have now decided against keeping him on the staff team, and demoted him. What was the reason that led you to this decision?
Adaptable has been transparent about what he intends to do here since Day 1, so you couldn't have been in the dark about his actions. There was full disclosure about his motive and intentions.:
Even if you claim you didn't see this specific post, the fact remains you and Adaptable used to talk very regularly, and he has made his views on this subject open repeatedly.
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@Sir.Lancelot
Now you see it, soon the devil will attack you again.
Now you see it, soon the devil will attack you again.
What are you talking about?
I’m not realizing anything, this has been obvious to me from the very beginning. I just didn’t say anything, but I was very suspicious the very day your promotion was announced.
Quite frankly, I don’t believe the snaking was when he turned on you, I believe it started right when he promoted you.
The way I see it, there are two likely explanations.:
1. Barney double-crossed whiteflame by promoting you to undermine him.
When I called this out in this server, he changed his tune because his cover was blown, so he let you take the fall by turning on you. He snaked the both of you by playing both sides.
2. Barney had no intention of making you a moderator ever.
He promoted you as a joke.
If Wylted was right, he was trolling the community and you by doing this. He knew you were too unstable to carry out your vision, and he knew your site model was unsustainable. You were setup as the verbal punching bag to endure the criticism of the community, when Barney bares the full burden of blame here.
I’m leaning towards #2 because I already know part of Barney’s true feelings toward you and the site.
Sometimes I think there's nothing this site loves more than moderation drama.
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@Sir.Lancelot
I think it is a third option.
1 is impossible because he actually helped finalise cutting me out in order to backup whiteflame. That is a guaranteed wrong interpretation.
2 is unlikely. There is something I won't disclose. Just know it is psychiatric.
He can forget things easily at times. It is genuine, I am sure of that.
The reason this is important to disclose is I am very sure Barney was naive in 2 different ways here. He really thought my approach and Whiteflame's could work together.
He is incompetent maybe but he is not malicious.
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@fauxlaw
hmm possible......
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@Sir.Lancelot
I do find myself wondering. What were your feelings that led you to promote Adaptable, and what are your feelings after?
As long as I can remember, he has deeply wanted to be a moderator, and has repeatedly petitioned for this. He is probably more dedicated to this site than every other member put together. I have long desired to be able to pass the reigns to him, and had been suggesting that before he went away last time. While he and I fight plenty, and would not be surprised if he banned me first thing, I genuinely believe he wants what's best for the site (and yup, if that included a ban on me, so be it). I can both have issues with someone, and still respect them and wish good things upon them.
Adding to that, consider for a moment how long the active moderation team has just been whiteflame and I. Personally, I do not enjoy being a moderator; I do it to aid the community, and help prevent it from going the way of DDO. I strongly suspect it is the same for whiteflame. Right now it is pretty easy to look at this thread and be like: David's back, and he's in talks in Michael to take control of the site! But at the time, moderation was whiteflame and I, with increasingly rare guest appearances in the moderator chat. Plus, we are the first to hear about features gradually breaking, but lack sufficient authorizations to do anything about it.
Getting someone passionate about the site at the helm, to me is the best hope for the site... There was the risk of him being too passionate, but I believed the most likely rewards outweighed the most likely risks. This didn't work out, but I'll take a misstep over stagnation; even if it proved to be an embarrassing misstep for me.
I did not treat it as a joke. I literally manually deleted every conversation in my PMs to prepare this account for a new user. We also put the work into making a new and better organized discord server to replace the old one.
But yes, it did not work out. First there was a couple red flags, which made me second-guess the idea, and then there was a thread announcement which to me read as if he was going to ban all mafia players from this site (or at least any who mention lynching people). There had been no talks with the team leading up to this, just a massive power trip out of nowhere. That's when I gave up on the idea.
On one hand, it was your idea to make him a mod, but you chose to gatekeep certain perms, and the official title. Denying him even access to the chats.Implying you don't fully trust him.
I think it was David who suggested a phase in period when he came back of a title (which if we haven't used before, we should use in the future). But I would not call anything gatekeeping. We were merely not rushing everything on the first day as if it was a timed Olympic event. The moderation credentials had to go through an existing account because of Michael's absence, and it made logistical sense to give people a warning before ownership of my account was switched over. He was invited into the moderation discord chat, merely not the archive.
He has a thing about avatars, much like I have a thing about voting standards. While I don't understand his thing about avatars, I accept that most people don't understand why I'm so uptight about votes.
If chilling out and talking over proposed changes with rest of the team, most changes are easily workable, and could be accepted by the community if better presented.
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@David
@Barney
I care about voting standards as much as you, Barney.
When a mod says jump we must say how high. You do not have a clue what a mod especially a 2nd in command mod/admin like you is meant to be.
When I told them stop posting slurs and Mharman does what he did. That is it, instant ban shut your mouth and anyone else that pipes up better be worried.
That is the way of moderating. Period.
Then at other times such as with user RemyBrown whom obeyed but derided, I was calmer and said thanks for listening, end lf discussion.
Remy wants attention but obeys and is used to a site culture where degradinb mods and other users is okay. I'd stamp out his degrading talk later, first I had to reward listening to me.
Sidewalker was Mharman's predecessor.
I guarantee you that Mharman and others seeing Sidewalker rise up that severely and get away with it inspired their uprising.
If David gives me not only modship but vice chief mod status beneath him as owner and Barney as chief, I will show you order here.
Whiteflame is absolutely not worth being in the discussion. Look how Whiteflame even got rid of me, he used you and David to do it. He is a pseudoleader. Mike was meant to be our leader, now David is. New regime. Whole new aura time. Mod shows up, we damn well better salute and be polite. I have fallen short of that too. I was not raised with strong relgious moral values.
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@AdaptableRatman
That is the way of moderating.
That would be the Russian way of moderating.
I would suggest that moderation should be moderate.
Sort of, calmly thought through, without bias and vitriol, type of thing.
I think there is clue in the word somewhere.
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@Barney
Adding to that, consider for a moment how long the active moderation team has just been whiteflame and I. Personally, I do not enjoy being a moderator; I do it to aid the community, and help prevent it from going the way of DDO. I strongly suspect it is the same for whiteflame. Right now it is pretty easy to look at this thread and be like: David's back, and he's in talks in Michael to take control of the site! But at the time, moderation was whiteflame and I, with increasingly rare guest appearances in the moderator chat. Plus, we are the first to hear about features gradually breaking, but lack sufficient authorizations to do anything about it.Getting someone passionate about the site at the helm, to me is the best hope for the site... There was the risk of him being too passionate, but I believed the most likely rewards outweighed the most likely risks. This didn't work out, but I'll take a misstep over stagnation; even if it proved to be an embarrassing misstep for me.
A misstep.
More like negligence & carelessness. All because you don't like your job.
You weren't under any obligation to take it in the first place. This was a burden of responsibility you signed up for and chose.
There were literally plenty of obvious alternatives to Adaptable.: Savant, Lemming, Fauxlaw, or even Mharman & Swagnarok.
Heck, I don't even want to be a moderator, but I would have accepted the position and demonstrated 100% commitment to fostering growth and change if it was offered to me.
Adaptable does not love this site, he loves debate. He was gone for literally a year, occasionally dropping in once or twice, while these other four users have remained active within that time, and their passion for this community remains the same as Adaptable's, or perhaps even greater.
Adaptable being a control freak or aggressive about change does not mean his passion is greater than Savant's, Lemming's, Fauxlaw's, or Mharman's.
What contributions has Adaptable made that Savant has not matched on an equal level?
Look at all that Savant has done so far. Why isn't he a moderator? Or Lemming? Why were none of these other people even considered?
Savant and Lemming haven't ever been moderated, as far as I'm aware.
Yet you and the other mods at one point banned Adaptable for inciting drama, making doxxing threats toward Ramshutu, and even made an announcement that he was one of the divisive members of the community.
Adaptable was crystal clear about his intention to make the mods reveal their IRL names and bring in Cancel Culture.
None of this is on Adaptable. This is not even a criticism of Adaptable.
This is a criticism of you growing so lazy and complacent, that you're desperate for any change that you can't even be bothered to choose your moderators more responsibility. Different does not always mean better. Stagnation was a significantly better choice than a clear lapse of judgment.
Half-assing measures without even bothering to commit to your choices, decisions show exactly how far you've fallen.
If you're so desperate for retirement, things would go by so much more quickly if you stopped wasting time and even bothered to consider one of those four users. There are literally so many quick and easy solutions to this problem. Lemming and Fauxlaw could easily get this site under control and from going the way of DDO.
And the both of them, but especially Savant would work so perfectly and compatibly with whiteflame. How was this not already obvious to you?
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@Sir.Lancelot
I don't even want to be a moderator, but I would have accepted the position
It wasnt offered.
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@LucyStarfire
Hello Best.Korea. How are you?
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@Sir.Lancelot
Try begging.
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@Sir.Lancelot
At this point it feels like you're complaining that we picked the wrong guy, so should remove him from the team, and admit to the error.
I and other mods have admitted we picked the wrong guy, he was removed from the team, and I have admitted it was an error; further I have taken personal responsibility for said error.
Like if you were a cop, you'd be demanding I pull over again after I've already pulled over: https://youtu.be/N2q62lymKLI?si=iOB0iV-tlU5c7SCq&t=115
You specifically claimed my posts in this thread have given mixed signals:
Full clarification would help avoid unnecessary confusion. You're sending mixed signals here.
All of my recent posts can easily be skimmed at: https://www.debateart.com/members/Barney/forum-posts
To which, you're welcome to point to which of them gave you mixed signals. Suffice to say, I both disagree with the assessment, but still sought to clarify matters in my most recent post here.
...
Once more, the egg is on my face. With zero reservations I admit this.
Any future requests for me to admit this some more, I'll just be providing a link back to this post (assuming I respond at all).
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@Barney
Once more, the egg is on my face. With zero reservations I admit this.
This is why it's important to have pies on hand. That way you can lick the meringue.
Any future requests for me to admit this some more, I'll just be providing a link back to this post (assuming I respond at all).
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@Sir.Lancelot
Irl names is stupid of me to have said, it was an exaggeration if I meant for now.
Eventually as a just in case it is needed to know who to prosecute if any mod uses their powers to ruin the site to a level thats sueable (not a typo of usable) and to hold them responsible for what they write more than a normal user. It would be known only to the highest up admins and owner. Idk how to ask for proof in a good way though in a site like this. Its better to be trust based with real IP known. Regardless I dont see what you talk about. You left longer than I did. Shut up.
Someone can take a break and love a website. You think swsgnarok loves this site because hes ticks around to barely post now and again, more consistently than me that took a break?
Like do you think before you write?
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@Barney
You did not pick the wrong guy in me. You have the wrong guy in whiteflame for sure.
I can forgive of course but denying a fact like that is useless. The guy's entire ethos is monarchic. Whiteflame rules simply to have people currently here happy with whiteflame ruling. He has no agenda beyond that at all.
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@zedvictor4
Vitriol is what I have received from many members here long before now and even now.
There is no such thing as a level that is suable by the likes of you.[AdaptableRatman] Eventually as a just in case it is needed to know who to prosecute if any mod uses their powers to ruin the site to a level thats sueable
I shouldn't be surprised coming from the legal insight that came up with "ban controversial topics or else the site is criminally liable"
Someone can take a break and love a website. You think swsgnarok loves this site because hes ticks around to barely post now and again, more consistently than me that took a break?
I don't know about Swagnarok.
But Lemming, Savant, Fauxlaw, and Mharman's passion for this site is not any lesser than yours.
And the truth is, you don't love this site. If you claim that you do, then you're contradicting yourself.
@AdaptableRatman
Vitriol is what I have received from many members here long before now and even now.
A. Quid pro quo
B. You see contention as a threat rather than as a challenge, and you respond badly.
C. You are inclined towards some sort of persecution complex.
Perhaps then, in the spirit of your new found Christian calling, you should learn to turn the other cheek.
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@zedvictor4
I have turned the other cheek a lot.
I have criticised WF as its actually important to shift the site leadership away from him. All other abusers of me have not been mistreated by me to my knowledge, since Ive come back reformed. I have been very patient.
May God bless you, no matter how twisted and evil you are and may you be grateful and turn back to him.