Skyrim Mafia Day 1

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#541
Casey_Risk
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@Lunatic
Hey, I'm here, and I'm dead inside. Sorry, I saw the posts AR tagged me in about how if not Savant, then who and how since no one wants to change away from Savant? And I had to stop and think about that for a bit, and then I just did work until my shift finally ended, and now I'm home and ready to crash. I'll revisit in the morning, but I still don't feel good about a Savant lynch right now. I'm too tired to coherently explain why, just read what I wrote earlier I guess. 
#542
Lunatic
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@ILikePie5
I’m fine with the mass claim. For the record though, I think it’s a cheap move, but it’s technically the mod’s fault for not providing fake claims or the opportunity to get a fake claim.
Ill take this as my answer from earth, I am assuming you already asked him if there was fake claims and he said no
#543
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@Casey_Risk
Hey, I'm here, and I'm dead inside. Sorry, I saw the posts AR tagged me in about how if not Savant, then who and how since no one wants to change away from Savant? And I had to stop and think about that for a bit, and then I just did work until my shift finally ended, and now I'm home and ready to crash. I'll revisit in the morning, but I still don't feel good about a Savant lynch right now. I'm too tired to coherently explain why, just read what I wrote earlier I guess. 
Fair enough, I am not all the way caught up yet, but in general I do think town needs to draw a hard line on what to do in "refusal to claim" scenarios. 
#544
Lunatic
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@AdaptableRatman
Even if somehow Savant is Town, it helps Mafia FAR more than us forore outs to occur.

The primary thing they dont know is who is rpotective and who isnt. That is vital to hide.

Its 50/50. No matter what claiming early also hurts scum, they have higher chance of being CC'ed, which makes them more likely to come up with obscure fake claims, IE easier to catch. Who cares if mafia know who the power roles are if we've basically caught them dp1? It backfires only if mafia somehow just had amazing fake claims (mafia tend to suck at fake claiming on this site, not  to mention very few people know the theme except for mikal, who I recall you town reading). 
#545
Lunatic
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@Savant
Have you said whether you're on board yet? I think everyone else is besides AR, and he already full claimed.
I am on board and trusting mikals knowledge of the theme enough to break the game. I also played skyrim a bit when it came out, and theres probably a few characters I remember though much of it is in the fog. 
#546
Lunatic
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@ILikePie5
No that’s stupid cause it means some people can wiggle out with “garbage justification”
What if the mod just gave generally garbage justification? We see it all the time. No offense, there was the same debate with some of the justifications of claims even in your black ops games. I am sure Ive been accused of bad justification multiple times as well. 
#547
Lunatic
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@AdaptableRatman
Why does Savant get special treatment?

If myself or others behaved like him theyd have been hammered long ago.

Never thought I would hear myself say this, but AR actually makes a good point here.

Its why I think town needs to have a solid position on what to do in situations like this. 
#548
Lunatic
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@ILikePie5
I don’t. I’m guessing. Either way, I’m not rewarding a non-compliant player. It sets a bad precedent. And if he’s going to continue doing this, I’m not going to play if he’s playing. It’s anti-town.
X1000
#549
Lunatic
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@AdaptableRatman
Savant WF makes so much sense.
I don't know if whiteflame would be so quick to savants defense if mafia, thats my main thing. Whiteflame would probably just bus. 
#550
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@Savant
I think scum would have found a reason to hammer me, hence I suspect that scum were both on the wagon. That means Casey and Pie are the most likely team from my POV.
 I am ready and willing to vote you, for all intents and purposes you can consider yourself hammered. I am waiting to see what resolved of the mass claim situation, but Im a couple pages behind still. If you think your claim can help your lynch, by all means, provide it. 
#551
Lunatic
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@ILikePie5
@Savant
That's gonna be difficult for all the games you don't host, cause I'm probably gonna play in all of them.
The difference between me and pie, is that I won't black list you, ill just support lynching you every game, or just straight up killing you as scum and ensure you have a horrible time playing in every game until you stop this sh1t. We've done it before to people who tried this nonsense we will do it again. I suggest pie changes his mind and join me in the attempt to just lynch you in every game instead of quitting mafia. 
#552
Lunatic
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@ILikePie5
We've played in thousands of these things. We never let anyone else bully us out of playing by being a retard. We bully them back. Fvck that sh1t. Whats 5 games out of the 1000 we play? Savant wants to play a hardass so will we. Just perma vote him until he realizes that town will never get anything done or accomplish anything with at least two players who wants to play the same way he does and never comply. He wants to die on that hill? So we do we. Mafia can get their win percentage up here for a few games in a row until he wants to stop throwing his fit. Doesn't matter to me, just hurts the mods. But this is what I mean about town needing to draw a line with sh1t like this. You can't just let one person do it and not others. It's not fair. There needs to be a precedent. Like I said if its me and Im being pushed for a reason I dont agree with, I debate them and tell them WHY its a bad reason. But if I get to l-1 im claiming. If I feel town are being retarded maybe I lie about my claim. If it gets me lynched, its whatever, I just blame it on the town. But I will still fvcking comply. You can't let one person get away with this non sense. Royal paladin tried doing it. F-16 tried doing it. Budda tried doing it. I've tried doing it. We all got put in our place and were eventually shown this is a selfish pr1ck way to act, and eventually stopped that nonsense for the greater good of mafia. We don't fvcking quit because of terrorist threats. We fvcking fight fire with fire and lynch their asses. 

*ends war speech*
#553
Lunatic
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@Savant
Not anti-town. Some claims would get be lynched even if I'm town, and sometimes I have power roles. If I always refuse to claim, town is better off in those games.
If you think town are constantly mislynching you, you need to let that be towns fault. Mafia are going to try and take advantage of any mislynchm its their wincon you can't blame them. But if town are fvcking up they need to take accountability for it. Them mislynching you last game was towns fault, and hopefully a lesson was learned from it. I saw a few people in the endgame mentioning that it was a bad lynch, meaning people realized from their mistakes. Unfortunately it is a team game, and you being mad that your team fvcked up doesn't give you a right to try and game the system so that your team doesn't fvck up any more, because thats not fair to everyone. Imagine a world where every did the same thing as you and outright refused to claim. Nothing would ever get done, lynches would be random af, and the game would suck. You can't play a team game as a solo player. Convince your team why mislynching you is bad without playing these stupid games. If you can't do that, why are you on a debate site?
#554
Lunatic
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@Savant
Well if town is gonna lynch me anyway it doesn't matter if I claim, they'll see my full PM the next day.
Mafia is just as much a social game as it is an investigative one. You attract more flies with honey than vinegar. Look at AR, he is someone that most people dis-agree with in general based on his daily behavior on the site, and he's one of the most widely town read people in the game right now. Why? He complied. Dreamer isn't even usually considered a good claim! The behavior you are emulating right now is behavior I would have expected from AR, the throwing a fit, causing a tantrum about not getting his way etc. In fact I came into this game fully prepared to just outright lynch him assuming he was going to pull those shenanigans. You were the last person I expected to act this way. 

And then killed at night w/ the power role. But if I always refuse to claim I won't always get lynched for it and can use the power role.
Oh you will, mark my words. That or we are gonna have some really stand still games where at least two players are just throwing, because I will match your energy in an instant and ruin this game for  you and everyone in it until you realize the folly of this. And I will actively encourage and petition everyone else to do so as well. You aren't the first special snowflake to try this sh1t. 

Why would I want to help the town when I'm scum?
Ah so you admit this strategy mostly helps scum thanks for that.

Mikal has literally said he uses the same strategy and apparently wins a lot with it. So it's not anti-town to use except when I'm scum, in which case I want the town to lose.
Mikal is lying. Anytime he has tried to do sh1t like this its backfired and resulted in his lynch and often times his teams loss. Theres a reason he quit playing for a few years. He talks like this to to bluff, but it almost always ruins the game for everyone else involved, even when he's done it in live games. Mikal talks big, but the last few games hes played here have been different, and thats because he DID learn the hard way. Go and check his past games under his "elminster" account. He was frequently lynched dp1 for doing this type of sh1t, and eventually he just quit. I say this and it sounds harsh, but mikal is actually a very good friend of mine, despite all this. I don't encourage this behavior from him either. 
#555
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Anyways, I think I am caught up now.

TL;DR my vote will be on savant after we tally up the votes of who is in favor of the mass claim or not. My vote is officially yes for the mass claim.
#556
AdaptableRatman
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@Lunatic
But do you hold the same fiery stance if Mikal does what Savant did?

I do.
#557
AdaptableRatman
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Milal would be ruder too
#558
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@ILikePie5
@WyIted
Lunatic just revealed to me that Mikal lied about his strategy working for him and because Mikal pretended to bebunsure if the game has thirdparty or scum has fakeclaims when he barely ever slips like that as Town.

I overlooked it wrongly.

I also think Mikal is the only player here who would be fully okay with Savant playing how he did.

I am open to switch to Mikal if he doesn't vote Savant soon.
#559
AdaptableRatman
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And because referred to why I am Open to vote Mikal, brainfart.
#560
AdaptableRatman
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@Lunatic
My role.isnonce per game. Its worded exactly as that.

It seems if I get my dreamd eneid np1 it gets a second chance np2.
#561
AdaptableRatman
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If Savant is Scum,

Mikal actually is his most likely partner.

The reason is the hardball amd fact Mikal added lies to help placate others against hammering Savant playing hardball.
#562
AdaptableRatman
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If Savant is Town, Mikal still is suspicious for using this chance to gain a massclaim and lying abiut his past to help Savant feel okay doing what he did.
#563
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@Savant
I am happy to switch to Mikal alone.

Choose.
#564
AdaptableRatman
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My new TRs (lower nymber is higher rank:
  1. Wylted
  2. Ultra
  3. Lunatic
  4. Pie
  5. Casey
Mikal is dropped from it

My scumpile now is:

2. Savant/Mikal joint 2nd
3. Whiteflame

If I had to read myself, I am townier than Lunatic imo, less so than Ultra.

#565
Lunatic
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@AdaptableRatman
But do you hold the same fiery stance if Mikal does what Savant did?

I do.

Check previous games again. I literally have done it. 

#566
AdaptableRatman
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@Lunatic
Mafia gains more than Town from this Massclaim, don't you see?

It helps them aim their secondary powers.
#567
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@Savant
Could we all claim at 6PM EST on the dot tomorrow? I feel like that's enough time to get agreement from everyone.
I have already claimed so it doesn't need to be a time I agree with
#568
Lunatic
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Mafia gains more than Town from this Massclaim, don't you see?
It helps them aim their secondary powers.
in the case where they don’t have fake claims provided it hurts them as well. Like I said earlier, what does it matter if they know at power roles if this helps us catch them? Lack of familiarity with the theme, plus a high chance of CC means they will be forced into gambling a high risk character and better have a sensible role to back it up, or more likely they just claim something obscure and those will be easy to weed out. Even if we don’t get a lynch correct in dp1 the odds of finding scum will be relatively easier to narrow down by locking them in like this the further we go
#569
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@Savant
That's what I'm thinking, gives us insurance if people are a little off on the timing.
If they are a little off timing they should be policy lynched 
#570
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@ILikePie5
I’m fine with the mass claim. For the record though, I think it’s a cheap move, but it’s technically the mod’s fault for not providing fake claims or the opportunity to get a fake claim. 
This would be my objective to it. I think for correct balance scum should have about an 80% chance of victory