Skeptics have a stupid theory that people hallucinating elaborate afterlife stories when they die

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Yes, **Vicki Noratuk** (also known as **Vicki Umipeg**) is one of the most frequently cited near-death experiencers in the literature—particularly because of the **remarkable nature of her veridical perception**, despite being **blind from birth**.

### 🧠 Key Details of Her Case

* **Vicki was born blind**—not just legally blind, but completely without visual perception, due to a congenital condition (likely cortical blindness, meaning her visual cortex never developed normally).
* During her NDE, she was **in a coma due to a car accident** that caused severe brain injury.
* While clinically unconscious, she reports an **out-of-body experience** in which she **saw herself**, the hospital room, medical personnel, and later **"floated" outside the room**.
* She also described meeting deceased relatives and experiencing a realm of light and love.

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### 👁️ What Makes Her Case Stand Out

#### ✅ **1. Veridical visual perception**

* She described **visual details** of the hospital room and her own body—details that sighted people later confirmed were accurate.
* She described things like her wedding ring and the shape of hospital equipment that she had **no prior sensory reference for**.

#### ✅ **2. Blind from birth**

* This is crucial: she **never had vision**. Not blurry vision. **No visual memory**, no mental imagery based on prior sighted experience.
* She described the experience as "seeing for the first time," and was later confused and overwhelmed trying to explain it in a way others could understand.

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### 🧪 Significance in NDE Research

* Her case challenges the **"dying brain hypothesis"**, which would expect nothing but chaotic neural activity or hallucinations—not organized, **accurate** external perceptions in a congenitally blind person.
* It suggests the possibility that **consciousness can access information about the external world in ways not reducible to the senses**, and that **visual-like experience may not require a working visual cortex**.

This case has been studied and cited in NDE research by **Dr. Kenneth Ring** and **Dr. Sharon Cooper**, who published it in the book *Mindsight* (1999), which details accounts of blind individuals with visual NDEs.

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### 🧠 Skeptical Responses

Skeptics argue:

* Vicki might have absorbed non-visual cues over time and reconstructed images conceptually.
* Memory distortion after the fact might explain her detailed descriptions.
* The evidence is still anecdotal and not gathered under controlled conditions.

But these critiques often ignore:

* The specific *accuracy* of her descriptions.
* The complete lack of visual reference in her past.
* The *consistency* of blind NDE reports across multiple cases.

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### 🧾 Summary

✅ **Yes**, Vicki Noratuk gave **accurate descriptions** of things she saw during her NDE.
✅ Her blindness from birth makes this **one of the most compelling veridical perception cases** in the literature.
⚠️ It’s anecdotal and not controlled, but its implications **challenge physicalist accounts of consciousness** and **support the hypothesis that some form of perception or awareness survives brain death.**

Would you like a side-by-side breakdown of this case vs others like Pam Reynolds or the “shoe on the ledge” case?


 Here's a **side-by-side breakdown** of three of the most well-known and frequently cited *veridical NDE cases*—that is, cases where people reported **accurate, real-world details** they should not have been able to perceive during clinical death or unconsciousness.

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## 🔍 **Comparison Table: Three Major Veridical NDE Cases**

| **Case** | **Name & Background** | **Claimed Perceptions During NDE** | **Why It’s Significant** | **Skeptical Counterpoints** |
| ----------------------------------------- | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| 🧑‍🦯 **Vicki Noratuk (Umipeg)** | Blind from birth; injured in car crash, unconscious | Described herself from above, medical equipment, people in the room, even physical features; also described seeing deceased relatives and surroundings | **Congenitally blind people lack visual memory**, yet she reported vivid, accurate visual-like perceptions; no prior visual reference possible | Skeptics suggest conceptual reconstruction or prior non-visual impressions; no independent verification of timing of her observations |
| 🧠 **Pam Reynolds** | Underwent a rare brain surgery (standstill procedure), monitored with EEG, flatlined | Accurately described **surgical tools**, **conversations**, and **events** during a time when her brain was clinically inactive | Her EEG was flat; her eyes were taped shut, and ears were blocked with click generators—yet she reported verified details during that period | Critics argue she may have heard things before or after flatline; challenge precision of the medical timeline |
| 👟 **"Shoe on the Ledge" (Maria’s Case)** | Maria, a cardiac arrest patient in Seattle hospital | Reported floating out of body, leaving the hospital room, and **seeing a blue shoe** on an upper window ledge outside | Hospital worker later **verified** that a blue shoe matching her description was indeed there—obscured and unlikely to be seen without external vantage | Skeptics question whether staff embellished the story; claim evidence may be contaminated or not independently recorded at the time |

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## 🧠 Common Threads Across All Three

* All cases involve **perceptions from a point of consciousness that should have been impossible** given their physical or neurological state.
* The reports are often **confirmed by witnesses or external evidence** (though not always documented in real time).
* These cases are used in **scientific and philosophical arguments** to support:

  * Dualism or survivalist models of consciousness
  * Critiques of reductive materialism
  * The plausibility of an afterlife or non-local mind

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## ⚖️ How Strong Is This Evidence?

| Dimension | Strength |
| ----------------------------- | --------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| **Anecdotal value** | High – emotionally powerful, detailed |
| **Verifiability** | Moderate – some external corroboration, but mostly retrospective |
| **Philosophical weight** | High – challenges materialist assumptions about brain = consciousness |
| **Scientific conclusiveness** | Low to moderate – needs controlled replication to be decisive |

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### ✅ Conclusion: The Cumulative Effect

No single case is airtight—but together, they form a **compelling pattern** that’s hard to dismiss. Especially when:

* You have **multiple similar reports** from different people, cultures, and contexts.
* The details involve **accurate information from inaccessible locations**.
* These reports occur during times when **brain function is severely impaired or absent**.

These aren't “proof” of the afterlife—but they’re **serious, empirically grounded data points** that justify belief in the possibility of non-local consciousness—and quite possibly, **conscious survival beyond death**.

Would you like me to turn this comparison into a formatted document you can use for writing or discussion?


FLRW
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Yes, blind people do indeed dream in visual images. What is more surprising is the discovery that people who were born blind also dream in visual images.

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@FLRW
Interesting and well written. Thanks for sharing
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@n8nrgim
You very often make threads oriented toward near death experiences, out of body experiences, and visions of the afterlife. Can I ask why you have such an interest in this subject?
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@Castin
im getting to the point of writing books and already writing blogs on christian spirituality and theology, and what NDEs can teach us, and incorporating these both within the science of happiness. the science of happiness is a relatively new branch of study for me, but i'm learning a lot. i'm finding connections between the branches of study and finding new ground for writing. Artificial intelligence is extremely helpful, but sometimes using real intelligence from humans helps too. you got to bounce the ideas off both. i post on different forums with different topics where i might be able to learn or develop more thought. this forum is more generic and i can't get specialized very well here for most topics. 
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From DebateReligion:
Religion very obviously isn’t real and people only believe because of how engrained it is in society
When I was around 11 years old it took me about 30 minutes in my head to work out that god likely isn’t real and is a figment of human creation.
I think if you think deeply you can work out why religion is so prevalent and ingrained into humanity.
  1. Fear of death. Humans are one of the few animals that can conceptualize mortality. Obviously when you are born into this life one of the biggest fears naturally is dying and ceasing to exist. Humans can’t handle this so they fabricate the idea of a “2nd life”, a “continuation” (heaven, afterlife, etc.). But there’s absolutely no concrete evidence of such a thing.
  2. Fear of Injustice. When people see good things happen to bad people or bad things happen to good people they’re likely to believe in karma. People aren’t able to accept that they live in an indiscriminate and often unjust universe, where ultimately things have the possibility of not ending up well or just. Think about an innocent child who gets cancer, nobody is gonna want to believe they just died for no reason so they lie to themselves and say they’re going to heaven. When a terrible person dies like a murderer or pedophile people are gonna want to believe they go somewhere bad, (hell). Humans long for justice in an unjust universe.
  3. A need for meaning. Humans desire a REASON as to why we are here and what the “goal” is. So they come up with religions to satisfy this primal desire for purpose. In reality, “meaning” is a man-made concept that isn’t a universally inherent thing. Meaning is subjective. Biologically our purpose is to survive and reproduce which we have evolved to do, that’s it.
Once you realize all of this (coupled with generations of childhood indoctrination) it’s easy to see why religion is so popular and prevalent, but if you just take a little bit of time to think about it all it becomes clear that it’s nothing more than a coping mechanism for humanity.