Christianity is, obviously, a force for ill in the world

Author: badger

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#31
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@Sidewalker
I would be interested to hear your opinion on this. I know you're spiritual for want of a better word. I wouldn't say I'm exactly atheist either. I am on some sort of a journey towards god. But this one falls a long way short.
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#32
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@thett3
Yours too thett. I hope I didn't offend you too much with that last post. 
#33
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@badger
Anyone who suggests being honest every several sentences is obviously endeavoring to convince himself, and others,  that he is. Usually, when that insistent, it's the opposite. Words will ultimately play out on their own which attitude is truly personally embraced. Post after post, my friend. Give it a break.
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#34
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@fauxlaw
You read this in some buzzfeed article or something? Reading back over my honestlys and tbhs here it seems I write them when I feel I am giving some sort of offense. So am I trying to convince people I am offensive?

#35
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@badger
A thousand years on, you elected a rapist as president. Religious right in Poland recently elected a pimp.
Had the religious right nominated a pastor, you would've screamed and convulsed and cursed more fervently than normal at us, complaining that we were mixing religion and politics (which conveniently no one complains about when black churches led the civil rights movement). Now that our politics are secular focused and we nominated a very secular man (never in his life convicted of rape), you scream and convulse and curse at us just the same. Hmm...

I think it's very obvious that today the more irreligious a country, the more moral. 
It's true that some countries which became rich and prosperous under Christianity then proceeded to become irreligious and happened to retain their wealth and prosperity after that (at least in the short term; who knows how sustainable this is in the long term). But what I'd like for you to do is point me to a country that was atheistic and then went from poor to rich. Otherwise you have a very weak case for what you're claiming.
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#36
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@Swagnarok
Had the religious right nominated a pastor, you would've screamed and convulsed and cursed more fervently than normal at us, complaining that we were mixing religion and politics
You lot push wacky religious bullshit all day long. I can't see where I'd have a point worth making there.

never in his life convicted of rape
Doesn't look great for him. Pornstar wife. Weird sexual comments about his own daughter. Best friend to Jeffrey Epstein.

But what I'd like for you to do is point me to a country that was atheistic and then went from poor to rich. Otherwise you have a very weak case for what you're claiming.
How is my case weak without that? That seems a fairly arbitrary dismissal. I'm talking about today. Read the thread. Did you get stuck on the title? I have given the religion its credit where it was due.
#37
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@badger
Doesn't look great for him. Pornstar wife. Weird sexual comments about his own daughter. Best friend to Jeffrey Epstein.
Sure, he's a creepy hedonistic coastal elite. If he were running for Pope this would be problematic. But the presidency is a secular office; the only relevant criterion is how good a job he'll do. Admittedly I'm less than thrilled with his second term performance thus far, but in any case that has nothing to do with what you were saying about religion.

That seems a fairly arbitrary dismissal. I'm talking about today. Read the thread. Did you get stuck on the title? I have given the religion its credit where it was due.
You wrote:

I think it's very obvious that today the more irreligious a country, the more moral. 
I sidestepped the question of "moral" because the American Left has pushed for abortion on demand, and facilitated a genocide of 63 million of their countrymen since 1973, among the largest in human history, and presumably European countries "boast" statistics much like this one. So instead, I focused on prosperity.

And in terms of prosperity, history paints a rather clear picture: highly stratified societies with strong civic norms and rule of law, especially those which practiced the Protestant (re: Calvinist) work ethic, invented modernity. After they came to enjoy an abundance of pleasures to give their life meaning outside of religion, they secularized. You could argue this proves that they don't need religion to stay prosperous, and I suppose I can't disprove this, outside of maybe discussing low birth rates that demand long term replacement by more religious immigrants. But what you claimed is that irreligion was the original cause of said prosperity, which is ridiculous. It's like claiming that owning a sports car is the cause of wealth as opposed to a consequence of it.
#38
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"Self-identified atheists and agnostics" also have high household income per this analysis "which may call into question any link between high levels of religious belief and wealth."

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#39
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@Swagnarok
I think you should go back and read my opening post. I invite any discussion of it. I think you see a therapist about the sex hang-ups. I can't deal with it, dude.

That's a bit mean, but.

#40
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@FLRW
Socioeconomic class has an intergenerational character. As the old saying goes, rich kids teach their kids how to be rich and poor kids teach their kids how to be poor. But even if competent, self-made people are more likely to become atheists, it doesn't follow that less competent people will magically gain competency by ditching what may well be the one thing providing a sense of structure to their lives.
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#41
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That structure seems to lead to a whole lot of sex scandals and electing degenerates to the highest offices in the land. 
#42
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I think you should go back and read my opening post. I invite any discussion of it. 
You mean the study? The summary of which says:

People who believe they’ve been forgiven by God may be more likely to forgive themselves after hurting someone—but this self-forgiveness doesn’t always lead them to apologize. In fact, a new study published in the Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin found that divine forgiveness can actually make people less likely to apologize by satisfying their internal need for resolution. At the same time, divine forgiveness can also boost feelings of gratitude and humility, which, in turn, can lead to more heartfelt and sincere apologies. The study reveals that divine forgiveness works through two opposing pathways—one that inhibits and one that supports the act of apologizing.
That's not exactly a damning indictment of religious people. It only suggests what we've always known: that religion has the power to change people both for the better and for the worse.

That structure seems to lead to a whole lot of sex scandals
Public school teachers, a demographic that skews both secular and well educated, are more than a hundred times as likely as Catholic priests to diddle kids. It just makes for a juicier headline to talk about the latter being naughty.


@badger
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#43
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Pretty much as expected:

I think what I've written in the thread is the reason for this disparity. The irreligious aren't scapegoating their shortcomings onto silly stories and are actually self-correcting. Therefore they won't vote the obvious degenerate.

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#44
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That post Swag, try that one. That's the idea I was getting at in this thread. 
#45
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@badger
Can I debate you on this topic?
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#46
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I would suggest that you also go see a therapist. 
#47
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@badger
That post Swag, try that one. That's the idea I was getting at in this thread. 
As I said, people who voted for Trump had secular motives for doing so. Namely that he was the Republican nominee who would push Republican policies.

Now obviously there's a correlation between religion and right-wing politics, and irreligion and left-wing politics. That's irrelevant to the question of Trump's personal character, as if forced to choose between a hypothetical Biden with all of the same scandals and his right-wing opponent (let's say not Trump but somebody with the same politics as Trump) the vast majority of Democrats would choose Biden.
I demonstrated this in a previous thread where I delved into Gloria Steinem's (a prominent 20th century feminist) public defense of Bill Clinton following the Lewinsky Scandal. And now that we know blanket pardons were being issued in Biden's name via autopen that he apparently had no knowledge of and didn't give his consent to (re: he was eerily close to being a literal puppet president), they can still do nothing but scream about Trump.
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#48
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@Swagnarok
As I said, people who voted for Trump had secular motives for doing so. Namely that he was the Republican nominee who would push Republican policies.
And I'm saying he was elected because he's a piece of shit pushing piece of shit policies. Gotta be a reason for that correlation between religion and right wing politics and irreligion and left-wing politics.

I think it's because religion is a force for ill in the world.

Pretty much every prominent republican I see on television at the moment is a contemptible human being. How are you voting these guys? Where are the squeaky clean pastors? 
#49
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New York Times Removes Melania Trump’s Crotch Selfie From Article


I can see why Christians love Trump.
#50
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@badger
As someone who went from more left to more right can I explain some things you are missing?
#51
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@badger
I think this is a fairly shitty study tbh, but just to give a little extra meat to the post: https://www.psypost.org/feeling-forgiven-by-god-can-reduce-the-likelihood-of-apologizing-psychology-study-finds/
It does also get at the edges of something I have understand for a long time though. And which is obvious, honestly. It wasn't hard to get. 

The whole humans are inherently sinful story, ask forgiveness and be forgiven, gild the church in gold, is obviously to give carte blanche to the person who buys in to do whatever shitty thing is in their heart without ever having to give a thought to who and what they are afterwards. They're a Christian. 

This is something the American right are putting on full show today. And for as long as I've ever argued with them tbh. 

That's the commodity. Sin is what you're purchasing.

There is no god presiding over this farce. Next time you ask forgiveness think maybe if I was a little less shit a person I wouldn't have to.
Sin is an offence against God. Yet we all offend each other at times. While God may forgive our sins. This should never prevent us from apologising to others or asking their forgiveness. 

I concede that sometimes people think that if they're right with God, they don't need to also apologise. I agree that it is bad form. Sometimes, however it is impossible to forgive people and sometimes it is difficult to apologise. For all sorts of reasons.  A couple in our church lost their son in a car accident. The criminals who are locked up - will never apologise and do not wish to see the couple who lost their son. They tell me - they have forgiven the criminal - or that they have a forgiving attitude towards him.  

I think sometimes we can forgive people in a judgmental way.  My mother-in-law told my father-in-law, after they were divorced, that she forgave him for offending her. He responded in a manner that was hard because he didn't think he had done anything wrong, and that her forgiveness was judgmental. 

I have a bible in my office - produced by a charismatic group, which in the appendix at the back teaches people how to forgive God.  I think this is blasphemous. How can God be forgiven if he has never done anything wrong? The issue comes down to what is forgiveness?  Is it to get rid of our resentment? Or is it to reconcile? Or is it something else?  I think forgiveness ought to be part of a reconciliation package and not separated. 

I take the view that we should apologise when we have done something wrong.  And we should also ask for forgiveness. We shouldn't expect forgiveness, though. And we shouldn't expect others to apologise. Treat others how you want to be treated - but never EXPECT others to treat you in the same way. 
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#52
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I think what I've written here is a very simple idea and a very obviously correct one. How is it that the religious right keep electing degenerates and sexual deviants? It's because they have no real morals to speak of. They took a hall pass on morals.

Be it policies or personalities, you got no fucking morals. 

#53
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@badger

Well  today, on Tuesday at 7 AM, Trump blasted both Israel and Iran. Trump said the two countries, "don't know what the FUCK they're doing."
#54
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@badger
I wasn’t offended, I understand how it comes across 

The whole humans are inherently sinful story, ask forgiveness and be forgiven, gild the church in gold, is obviously to give carte blanche to the person who buys in to do whatever shitty thing is in their heart without ever having to give a thought to who and what they are afterwards. They're a Christian. 
I actually agree with this. Have you ever watched The Sopranos? It’s a show about the Italian American mafia and lots of them are Catholic and do use the “well I can just confess” or “well I donate to the church” as an excuse to just do whatever they want. 

But the show also makes it clear that spirituality in general (and Catholicism particularly) is real. The characters are WRONG about this. The church isn’t a protection racket, using religion as a crutch actually makes it WORSE because you can’t claim to know any different. 

Anyway it’s just a show but that’s how I look at it.  When I was growing up there were a lot of Bible thumpers and a lot of them were the most hypocritical and nasty people you could ever meet. But I feel like that’s the case for any rule set  and more just a failure mode of people in general. Doesn’t make religion as bad thing for the people who actually practice it 

#55
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@thett3
To a hard indoctrinated leftist regularly exposed to purity tests, tolerance of anything on the right must seem like an incredibly foreign concept. The irony here is that tolerance really means enduring diverse views especially the ones you don’t like. But for someone raised on the idea that the moral high ground is tied to total ideological purity, even listening to a dissenting view can feel like a very foreign concept. That mindset creates the thought bubbles where disagreement = evil, and anyone outside the line is an evil threat instead of a fellow American.
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#56
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@thett3
Anyway it’s just a show but that’s how I look at it.  When I was growing up there were a lot of Bible thumpers and a lot of them were the most hypocritical and nasty people you could ever meet. But I feel like that’s the case for any rule set  and more just a failure mode of people in general. Doesn’t make religion as bad thing for the people who actually practice it 
Well thett where the majority of religious people in America would vote Trump and the majority of atheists would vote Biden, how is it not the driving force in your politics?

And the next question is how is it the driving force in your politics?

I have outlined my idea here. You can say religious values about the abortion, trans etc. issues, but the republican party is the party of immigration and guns too. Those don't seem religious values. And yet 90% of agnostics, atheists and irreligious in general are voting the other way. Economy and healthcare, same thing. 90% of the irreligious are going the other way.

It just doesn't seem like the difference should be this large unless the religious difference goes very, very deep. In a way that isn't just "religious values".

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#57
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I think it's fairly obviously that Christianity is social engineering that has fallen into severe disrepair. 
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#58
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I love the Sopranos btw. Been a long, long time since I watched it but I remember thinking it was a rewriting of Albert Camus' The Stranger. A book I hated tbh. I think Tony's daughter is reading it at some point too. But the show seemed to dive into the absurdity of Tony's life and make some meaning in it that that book didn't with Meursault.

The show had soul. I got nothing against having soul. 

I just think that Christianity seems to make for an unusual amount of morally bankrupt human beings. 
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#59
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Think you've come all the way up to agreeing with me here tbh thett. Bit gay, but I've always felt we were kindred spirits a little bit. 

You wanna ditch our Italian wives and just get together?