Parables: The Way to Heaven

Author: Discipulus_Didicit

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#61
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@keithprosser
What Augustine is saying is that there is a certain predetermined end for a certain path.

Not that we don't have freewill.


And that is really what double predestination is, the idea that God's absolute sovereignty negates freewill. 


But Augustine certainly believed in freewill, and as I said, he did write a book on the subject. If I remember correctly(because it has been a while since I read it), he is having a dialetic with another in an attempt to reconcile God's foreknowledge and freewill.

So I mean... over a thousand years before Calvin the church already wrote about such things.

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#62
Discipulus_Didicit
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I would say that you in all likelyhood have superstitious understanding of the supernatural due to your materialistic "education". In other words, how you understand the supernatural is not likely how the church understands the supernatural.

 Your ideas and theories about it [the 'ultimate reality'] are absolutely not it. Can't be.
That doesn't answer my question. All that says (in one of the most arrogant and passive aggressive ways possible) is that you disagree with me. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for more details regarding said disagreement.

The Ultimate Reality is not a perception.
You seem to be implying that I said it was a perception of some kind at some point. You should withdraw that accusation or provide a quote by me where I did so.

In fact, the Ultimate Reality is not an abstraction, more accurately, it is the total absence of abstraction, and what you yourself are working with is an abstraction. So you are understanding that which is not abstraction through the medium of an abstraction.
You, not I, are the one that said "Ultimate reality is truth. I am not saying that it is true it exists, I am saying it is literally the same thing as truth."

Truth is an abstract concept.

I already know that your response is going to be by making some different definition for the word truth than what the rest of the world uses that word to mean and saying that is what you meant by truth and you already know that my response is going to be that making up your own meaning for words that already have meanings is stupid because it damages our ability to communicate effectively. Funny how that works.

On that note... are females allowed to be priests in the 'nation of priests' that you have spoken of before? Just a simple yes or no would save both of us lots of time, since I am telling you right now that I don't care about any additional preaching that you attach to the answer.
#63
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@Mopac
The understanding the church has is that even though God doesn't make us choose what we do through our freewill, God does know what we are going to choose before we do it.

Freewill is something we absolutely do have, and so we are responsible for our actions.
Now address this:
Does your god know all, does he know whether you are in heaven or hell? If so whatever you do is predestined, you cannot change it you cannot prove your god wrong.





#64
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I am really quite serious. No attitude.

The Ultimate Reality is not a perception, a conception, or a postulation. It is not an abstraction, but that which is beyond abstraction.


We are using a concept because that is what we have to work with. However, The Ultimate Reality, what that really means and what that really is... not a concept.


The Ultimate Reality is Reality as it truly is, not as it is perceived to be or thought to be. 


For you to call this a concept is to mistake the map for the territory. Reality as it truly is cannot be a concept. It is an existence that precedes conception.


On that note... are females allowed to be priests in the 'nation of priests' that you have spoken of before? Just a simple yes or no would save both of us lots of time, since I am telling you right now that I don't care about any additional preaching that you attach to the answer.

In other words, you are trying to justify your willful ignorance and prejudice.  You know, I can't help but think you are projecting when you call me passive aggressive and arrogant. 



#65
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@disgusted
You can't prove God wrong because God cannot be wrong. 


If you find yourself in hell, rest assured it was you who put yourself there. Maybe you should have listened.
#66
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@Mopac
It would be because god put me there and I had nothing to do with it, your god made the decision before I was born or are you lying when you say your god is all knowing?
Your god knew that I was in hell before I was born and so created me for the sole purpose of torturing me for eternity.
#67
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@disgusted
You have free will.

Don't blame God if you use your free will to choose evil. Your choice to rebel against God does not undermine God's sovereignty.


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#68
Discipulus_Didicit
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@Mopac
The Ultimate Reality is not a perception, a conception, or a postulation. It is not an abstraction, but that which is beyond abstraction.
You seem to be implying that I said it was a perception of some kind at some point. You should withdraw that accusation or provide a quote by me where I did so.

The Ultimate Reality is Reality as it truly is, not as it is perceived to be or thought to be. 
Reality is reality as it truly is.

In other words, you are trying to justify your willful ignorance and prejudice.  You know, I can't help but think you are projecting when you call me passive aggressive and arrogant. 
I'll take that as a smart ass "yes", feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
#69
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@Discipulus_Didicit

You seem to be implying that I said it was a perception of some kind at some point. You should withdraw that accusation or provide a quote by me where I did so.

You are very clearly the one accusing me.


I'll take that as a smart ass "yes", feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Your attitude in this discussion leaves you beyond reproach. After all, you are treating me as a deceiver and egotist, not as someone who wants to educate.

You are frankly, not showing me much respect. I would hope that you have enough sense to treat people in the real world with more courtesy. I would appreciate it if you engaged me reasonably and honestly.


#70
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@Mopac

Your god knew that I was in hell before I was born and so created me for the sole purpose of torturing me for eternity.

You have free will.
Don't blame God if you use your free will to choose evil. Your choice to rebel against God does not undermine God's sovereignty
Gus is not blaming god but pointing out a logical inconsistency in you position.

if God knows I am going to shoot my wife then I'd have no choice but to shoot her.   When the time comes I may feel that I can choose to pull or not pull the trigger but I'd have no choice at all. Put another way, I cannot choose to not pull the trigger because God foresaw I would.


#71
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@Mopac
So I can change what your all knowing god already knows? Your church should consider that blasphemy. If I go to hell and fulfill your god's knowledge then the corollary is that he created me for the sole purpose of torturing me for eternity, quite a vindictive, sadistic and vicious god you choose to worship. In the field of gods available couldn't you find a better one?
#72
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@keithprosser
Foreknowledge =/= determinism.

It is no great thing for God to know how we are going to act before we do so, because God witnessed it happening and was there before we even experienced it.

Time is a constraint for us, not God.



#73
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@disgusted
That is what Calvinism teaches, not Orthodoxy.


See above post.


#74
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@Mopac
So your god is not all knowing, is that the game you now want to play, it'll do you no good. My arguments are irrefutable.
#75
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@Mopac
Precisely the point we are making.
#76
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@disgusted
Keep collecting that crazy check.
#77
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@Mopac
Another admission of submission, you may go now.
#78
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@disgusted
You aren't cheating the system, you are just a loser.
#79
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@Mopac
It is no great thing for God to know how we are going to act before we do so, because God witnessed it happening and was there before we even experienced it.
Time is a constraint for us, not God.
It's very annoying that theists are allowed to say God has whatever powers and attributes they like!   if 'time' is a problem,they just say God is 'outside time'.  God can 'transcend space' or be 'realler than real',or more 'abstract than abstract'...

Such phrases don't really mean anything so they are irrefutable.   Pauli invented the phrase "not even wrong" and I think a lot of what you , Mopac, post falls into the category of the 'not even wrong'.

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#80
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@Mopac

The Ultimate Reality is Reality as it truly is.

Reality is reality as it truly is. Adding the word ultimate doesn't actually do anything but make your statement sound superficially deep and meaningful.

I would say that you in all likelyhood have superstitious understanding of the supernatural due to your materialistic "education". In other words, how you understand the supernatural is not likely how the church understands the supernatural. 

This was the closest you have come to even addressing my question about how you would describe my outlook on the 'ultimate reality'. I want you to actually re-read what you wrote here though. It basically translates as "your outlook is incorrect". In other words, you disagree with me. That is a pretty useless statement because I already knew you disagreed with me. Why not go into detail about what the nature of those disagreements would be?

The phrase 'beyond reproach' definately means something different than what you think it means, by the way.

#81
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@Discipulus_Didicit
The phrase 'beyond reproach' definately means something different than what you think it means, by the way.

BOOM headshot.

#82
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@keithprosser
You think it's annoying theists exists. You can put whatever attributes you want on gods too. Since they are just stories and all.  
#83
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You think it's annoying theists exist.
Its annoying that there are people that blow themselves and other people up, deny their children blood transfusions, stand in the way of people who love each other getting married and a lot of silly stuff like that, all based on pre-scientific myths about various gods.

I don't suppose we will ever make this world perfect, but we must be able to do better than we are!  

#84
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit
'didicit' is 'learned' as in the past-tense of learn... if you mean learnèd 'doctus' might be better!

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#85
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@keithprosser
I was going for "student of learning".

The idea I meant to convey was along the lines of a person that admits they do not have all the answers and values the process of acquiring knowledge for its own sake, being willing to discard old ideas if they are shown to be incorrect.

Unfortunately the latin word for learning translates to 'doctrina', which sounds too similar to the English word 'doctrine' for my tastes due to the baggage attached to that word, which also happened to be antithical to what I was going for.

In the end I decided to go for a vaguely latinesque name whose meaning was close enough to what I wanted to convey and hope that anyone that was curious would ask me directly rather than look it up themselves. This has been moderately successful. I have used this name for a bit over 3 years now and many people have asked me to explain it, but you are only the second person to (correctly) point out that it is badly translated trash (though it is nice of you to put it more diplomatically.)

I am definately not learnèd. I'm just a 23 year old middle-class white boy with a highschool diploma and a fondness for certain alcoholic beverages. Hardly a model citizen lol.
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#86
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@disgusted
Lol, I figured it was nicer to tell him now rather than have him unknowingly compliment my manners repeatedly until someone else pointed out what the word actually meant.

That would have been funnier, but would not have been nice.
#87
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@keithprosser
Well it's sad atheists kill off non atheist in regimes all the time but that's ok cause atheists murder is less murdery. I have to wonder about a guy who spends his day online with murders. 
#88
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@Discipulus_Didicit


Reality is reality as it truly is. Adding the word ultimate doesn't actually do anything but make your statement sound superficially deep and meaningful.

I already demonstrated how it is meaningful, but like most who have adopted an attitude of being unteachable, you simply ignore what I say and pretend I didn't say anything.

If it was an arbitrary thing, merriam-webster wouldn't have it in their definition. 


The phrase 'beyond reproach' definately means something different than what you think it means, by the way

Well, I would hope that you can be corrected, because rebuking my position before you understand it is foolish.



It basically translates as "your outlook is incorrect". In other words, you disagree with me. That is a pretty useless statement because I already knew you disagreed with me. Why not go into detail about what the nature of those disagreements would be?

Because rebuking a position before it is understood is foolish. You have given me enough information to say that you likely have a superstitious understanding of these concepts that isn't actually in line with what we believe.

I can already tell you are superstitious concerning God, because you refuse to acknowledge The Ultimate Reality as God, even going so far as to lack belief in God's existence.

It is not an arbitrary thing. Not a matter of simply disagreeing in this case. The existence of God is a surety, so if you do not know this with 100% certainty, you can't have anything other than a superstitious understanding of God. The God you say doesn't exist cannot be my God.


And really, this is one of the few things you can be 100% certain about, if nothing else at all, that God surely exists.

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#89
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@Polytheist-Witch
Well it's sad atheists kill off non atheist in regimes all the time but that's ok cause atheists murder is less murdery. I have to wonder about a guy who spends his day online with murders. 

I must have missed something. Who here is a murderer?
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#90
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I already demonstrated how it is meaningful, but like most who have adopted an attitude of being unteachable, you simply ignore what I say and pretend I didn't say anything.

I'm not pretending any such thing.

I remember you claiming that if the term 'ultimate reality' has a different meaning than the term 'reality' then the term can be useful.

I agree with this claim.

The problem is that I also remember several instances of you explaining what the term 'ultimate reality' means (post 64 of this thread is just one example) and it ends up just meaning the same thing as what people usually mean when they say 'reality'.

Rebuking a position before it is understood is foolish.

Obviously I agree with this. Saying anything about an idea that you don't know anything about is pretty dumb. That was the entire point of my example of a conversation in post 42.

So, for a second time, since we both agree on this... Please go into as much detail as possible about where we actually differ. If you need more details from me about what I believe I once again state that I am happy to answer any questions you have for me.

I can already tell you are superstitious concerning God, because you refuse to acknowledge The Ultimate Reality as God, even going so far as to lack belief in God's existence.

Again what this basically translates into is that you think I am wrong. That is fine, I agree that you think I am wrong.

So, for a third time, since we both agree on this... Please go into as much detail as possible about where we actually differ. If you need more details from me about what I believe I once again state that I am happy to answer any questions you have for me.