Middle East &quot;GODS&quot;= best HOAX ever !

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179

02.06.2019 10:04PM

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@ludofl3x

[1] The problem is people like you who THINK there's some magic afterworld are the ones who say things like stem cell research is immoral, genetic therapy is an affront, etc. etc. [2] for no other reason than it continues to shrink your god's power and cedes it to people like me. [3] People who say "Wow, it sucks that you're dying of cancer, but I'm going to do research until I figure out a way to make it slower. Or make it better. Or eliminate it. Or research pain management drugs that will let you feel less as it ravages through you." YOU would tell these people "God gave you that cancer. You should thank him, and hope you're righteous enough that after he devastates your family, you get to go to heaven to be with the guy who gave you cancer. In fact he didn't just give it to you, you know all those kids with it? Yeah, them too. [4] But thank him on their behalf when you get there, and tell him to forgive the parents who are mad at him for killing their baby. OH, tremendous pain you're in right? That stinks. [5] Why take the medication? Just pray and it'll go away. And if it doesn't, t's just Jesus testing your faith, so if you waiver, get ready to burn in hell forever unless you decide right at the last second to kiss up to him again, then you're fine. Probably." That Christians think they have the market on comforting people who are in their last extremity is fucking offensive. [6] Lying to someone about a party they're about to die and go to? Reprehensible. Also, do any Christian comfort folks ever tell the dying "You might be on your way to hell for all I know, maybe nothing you can even do about it?" Are all dying cancer patients going to heaven? Give me a break you pompous ass.

[1] And it is people like you, who don't know if there is an afterworld yet tell everyone there is none that a Christian would say is deceived. One thing is certain, one of us is deceived.

[2] It does not shrink God's power. You are delusional if you think Someone who is omnipotent and unchanging can lose power?

[3] There is a reason for cancer, for death and decay. It is called sin, rebellion from God. It is the consequence of humans rejecting God and His guidance. It is humanity thinking they know better than God (and what a mess). And the inhumanity of human against human, how do you explain this moral evil if it is just our biological make-up working in whatever way they are programmed to work? What makes that evil or bad or wrong? Nothing. What makes the genocide of Stalin, or Mao wrong? What makes the suppression of Kim Jong-un on his people wrong? He is doing what he deems necessary for his survival and for a luxurious survival at that.

What death does is it makes us think about our temporary existence and the MEANING of life. Since the Fall we have thought about this meaning. We see meaning in everything we do and all that is around us yet you refuse to acknowledge why there is this meaning that our consciousness seeks out.

Ultimate, your worldview has no meaning to life. You are just a biological accident, and you just make up something because you like it, then you are gone, and no one cares (two generations down the line) about you.

[4] God does not take innocent life without restoring it. You, on the other hand, cannot restore life if you take it; a life created in the image and likeness of God. It is not the Christian who does not recognize the intrinsic value of every human life but the materialist. Life is so cheap that since Roe V Wade over 1.5 BILLION human lives have been snuffed out. Where is your humanity? Why are you not lending your voice to the most innocent in their defense?

[5] God has given us minds to worship and discover Him. We discover ways to improve our lives because of the reasoning power we as humans have. We learn of our environment and what makes us special through what has been made. God told humanity to tend the earth and gave us dominion over the earth, but He wants us to act responsibly with what He has given us. Greed and exploitation are not what He had intended and there is a time when we will answer for our wrongful actions and pay the penalty (either by our own merit of the merit of Another). So life is designed to that end in mind, a choice of either seeking God or seeking self and selfish pursuits.

[6] Either it is you or I that is lying. I claim you are the one who is deceiving other and can't make sense of existence, consciousness, morality, the universe.

#32

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179

02.06.2019 10:05PM

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@ludofl3x

You should be good because you're a good person. Not because you think you're getting a reward. Or that you will avoid being punished. That would make you a person of integrity. And there are far more of those than there are bloodthirsty atheists waiting to take over your life, you coward.

Good in whose eyes, whose standard? What makes what you call good actually so - because you say so? Who are you? I can't earn salvation. It is a gift given by God. You can't earn that. How would my being "good" measure up to His perfect standard, His pure and holy nature?

Even though you deny God, you live by some of His standards and you borrow from His standards when you think of good. People believe it is wrong to steal, to murder, to lie, to covet something that belongs to someone else, to commit adultery, yet they neglect the most important commandment to love the Lord your God. Instead, they smear Him and make Him out to be a villain. Then they wonder why they are ignored by God and bad things happen. What happens is that God gives them over to the desires of their heart in doing what should not be done.

Romans 1

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them...21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions;..28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

So, look what happens...God's gives you over to what you want. He says okay, reap the rewards of your denial of me, then see where it gets you.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity...

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions...

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper

You sow what you reap, as Jesus put it because you do not seek God with all your being. And how can you believe in Someone unless you believe He exists?

Hebrews 11:6 (NASB)
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

#33

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179

02.06.2019 10:15PM

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@ludofl3x

God never takes an innocent human life without restoring it, or else He would not be just. And I can back up my claims with biblical text too.

The difference between God and you or me is that if we take an innocent life we can't restore it. God can. All life is His to give and take. You only have a brief time span on earth.

We do not have the right, under God, to take innocent life - Thou shalt not kill.

How it is wicked to take a life and restore it to a better place?

How do you get billions of fossils all over the earth? How does fossilization take place? If animals die on a plain do they fossilize? Usually catastrophic conditions like mudslides of animals encased in mud and pressurized produce fossils. What catastrophic conditions do you ascribe to fossilization?
There was no better place when the flood happened, right? The afterlife is a new testament concern.

It was OT too.

Daniel 12 (NASB)
The Time of the End
12 “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

So it's never right to kill? Let's play a game then. You are a man with a gun. You notice a child walking into a maternity ward. You see this child is wearing a suicide bomb, and a crucifix necklace, so he might be Christian. You can kill him and save others. Do you?

I said it was never right for human beings to kill other INNOCENT human beings. You misrepresent my statement.

This is the lesser of two evils argument, granted the child is innocent and has been forced to go into the hospital by someone with evil intent.

If animals are buried under volcanic ash on a plain they can fossilize. You're getting out of your depth. Are you about to question the scientific methods of dating beyond carbon dating? I'll save you the time. Where did all the water go?

True, they can, but my point is that it is through catastrophic events that this happens. The Flood is a catastrophic event.

Do you believe these billions of fossils all over the world met that volcanic fate?

#34

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

02.06.2019 11:00PM

You use a completely juvenile rhetorical trick to invent a god into existence: if god's reality and you live in reality, then there's a god. You've not demonstrated anything along those lines in 3K posts. Saying it doesn't make it so.

I am not using a juvenile trick to invent a "god" into existence. I am telling you what God means. As you do not respect merriam-webster as a valid source for the defining of terms, I have little doubt that you would also reject any writings from the church fathers or even the bible.

Clearly, The Ultimate Reality is not an invention. It exists.

You accusing me of using juvenile rhetroical tricks though is in fact a juvenile rhetorical trick.

You and PGA are basically the same argument: you presuppose the existence of something because you think it's necessary, without ever demonstrating this necessity,

My argument is that you are debsting a straw man opponent because you can't accept that God is The Ultimate Reality. That is what God means.

and then take it another step further, and say "And it's therefore obviously Jesus." Even if I granted you both that whatever unseen agent to create a universe is necessary and therefore real, you would not be able to make even an inch worth of advancement toward demonstrating that it's got anything to do with the bible.

You have no hope of understanding what is being said because when I say "This is a football" you say "No, it is a hand egg, and you can't prove it is a football".

You say that I would not be capable of making an inch worth of advancement to proving what I'm saying has anything to do with the bible, but you speak from a certain presumption.

That presumption is that you know better, and have nothing more to learn. You are resting on your current understanding, and assuming yourself to be right.

Well, you clearly don't understand what I believe.

And I am not putting you in a pile with other people who only superficially have the same position. I am an Orthodox Christian. PGA is not an Orthodox Christian. I can not vouch for what he says or believes. What I can represent is what Orthodoxy teaches. I am here to represent that position.

And well, as I said, you clearly don't understand what I believe. As you are dismissing what you don't understand, all I am able to see is that you are haughty.

#35

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179

02.07.2019 12:33AM

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@WisdomofAges

ALTERNATIVE to the JESUS-JEW-ALLAH God inventions ? EASY.....

First....do the right thing.....= relegate the Middle East (human invented GODS) Jesus-Jew-Allah immediately to MYTHOLOGY where they can join
with Zeus-Odin-Thoth-+++ to many GODS and so called "Divine Entities" to list...for entertainment purposes only.....

And replace the biblical God with what, your subjective relative views? Is that the alternative? Shall I bow now?

OH, by the way, .... what happened to all of the other GODS from 6000 years before JESUS showed up...and why isn't the JEW GOD of MOSES so
pissed off at this nonsense he shows up himself and sets humanity straight ? BECAUSE IT IS ALL A HOAX...THEATER....a JOKE....

What other gods? Do you mean human inventions?

What makes you think that the other ancient accounts of creation and the Flood that are told are not corrupted from the original and God inspires and charges Moses with giving the true account? Have you taken that into account?

These false gods demonstrate they are false. God allows this deception for a period of time to demonstrate this impotency.

Through history, God chooses people and then a nation to make Himself known to the world through and through that people, He promises the Messiah, the Savior, who will restore a righteous relationship with God lost by the Fall. In the meantime, He demonstrates that humanity cannot live a righteous life without sin in showcasing His relationship with Israel. He promises He will make a new covenant and judge the unrighteousness with the destruction of the Old Covenant which happened in AD 70 and the destruction of the city, temple, and ritual economy.

So 6000 years of civilization is wiped out...the calendar is reset and this boy GOD "JESUS" HOAX becomes the GOD of GODS !...this white jewish boy...SON of some ILLITERATE JEWISH VIRGIN TRIBAL GIRL ! (what a joke) ...a baby human form GOD ! is the only one that matters !

Again, all your highly charged language used to discredit this testimony by over forty different authors through a period of over 1500 years all centered on very specific and unified themes, one of which is the type and shadow of Jesus on almost every page of the OT, all this denied and tunneled by your opinion. Why should I believe you? How well have you investigated the Bible? How well do you understand its prophecies? How do you explain prophecy away?

YES ! .....he is for those who are hypnotized and brainwashed to believe this HOAX stunt !

Or the brainwashed hoax you are creating in denying your Creator is another alternative.

"JESUS" ?.... creator of billions of GALAXIES and TRILLIONS of WORLDS going back in time 14 billion years...shows up on EARTH ...14,000,000,000..... years later..... to help some lunatic illiterate tribe in a remote desert.... to get their act together and stop murdering each other in his name ! OK forget MYTHOLOGY just flush this CRAP down a TOILET and forget.......

That is your worldview bias coming through, not mine. You assume the earth is 14 billion years old based on secular humanistic reasoning. You assume that the present is the key to the past, that what we see in the present is as it was in the past. That is your assumption, not mine. You assume that ANE culture was one that would accept them in their lands. All you have done here is assert and assume. Support your allegations and I will discuss them if I am able.

#36

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179

02.07.2019 12:40AM

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@WisdomofAges

The Middle East Parasite VAMPIRES who invented and promote...the JEW GOD...JESUS GOD..ALLAH GOD...are all at war with each other...all 3 disagree about the only GOD that matters....all 3 use and abuse each other to gain POWER and CONTROL over weak minded individuals...all 3 totally undermine any other GOD perspective...yet all 3 cannot be RIGHT...the fact is THEY ARE ALL WRONG...

God has given humanity a progressive insight of Himself. The NT follows from the OT and is a fulfillment of it. This can be adequately demonstrated via Scripture.

You have created a false analysis by stating "they are all wrong." That does not necessarily follow. One religious view (Judaism, Islam, or Christianity) could be right/true and the others still have truths that are confirmed by the others. The OT is the common factor all three religions borrow from. Judaism does not follow the OT commandments of animal sacrifices or the priesthood laid down by God as the mediator between Him and them. The NT gives the reason for this. Until you understand this relationship I don't think you will properly understand the prophecy.

No human needs the Middle East GOD construct to exist and die....the Church-Temple CULTS need the humans to survive....without human slaves to serve the CULTS there would be NO CULT of any consequence.....just a bunch of ignorant insecure humans without brainwashed slaves to serve them....

The biblical God is not a construct and you are welcome to the soaked up atheistic groupthink opinion (since we are using emotive and ad hom language).

Anyone who is so mentally degraded to the point of surrendering their FREEDOM to think and reason critically over this Comic Book Garbage only proves how powerful the HYPNOSIS JESUS/ALLAH PSYCHOS truly is....they are SLAVES of the Church- Temple- Mosque programming...SAD
truly PATHETIC....Ok go pray now for SALVATION....fall on the floor and shake like the imbecile you have been brainwashed into

Nice ad hom argument! Really strong points! Well done!

it is TRULY AMAZING that anyone in the 21st century would fall for this RELIGIOUS VOMIT....where are any of these IDIOT GODS ?

More garbage.

ANSWER : Between the pages of Bible-Torah-Koran COMIC BOOKS and then BETWEEN the EARS of totally HYPNOTIZED and BRAINWASHED
human sheeple slave drones of very clever PARASITE VAMPIRE CULT practitioners.....FOOLS ! utter FOOLS....pray now...confess...beat yourself
into submission....for YOU...are a BORN SINNER CRIMINAL....the Bible Comic Book says so....

Brilliant argument! You really backed it up with sound logic, pure facts, and indisputable proof!

No animosity there!

#37

Debates: 0

Posts: 4,959

02.07.2019 02:41AM

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@PGA2.0

Nobody mentioned injustice you were discussing the greatest mass murders and completely ignoring your mythical god's mythical flood. Carry on.

#38

Debates: 0

Posts: 4,959

02.07.2019 03:00AM

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@PGA2.0

There is no compassion in an evolutionary process.

Only that brought to it by humans and that is what frightens you, death is death.

It just shows the grim reality

Yes it does, but it's only grim if you refuse to accept the reality. It is a fantastic reality filled with opportunity. Opportunity wasted on a god fear.

Good can mean whatever those in power want it to mean.

To you apparently but not to me. I determine what is good, I'm a human.

#39

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179

02.07.2019 04:11AM

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@disgusted

Nobody mentioned injustice you were discussing the greatest mass murders and completely ignoring your mythical god's mythical flood. Carry on.

God destroyed wicked humans who would not repent and who were bent on violence and evil intentions.

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

Stalin, Hitler, Mao, were also wicked and caused a lot of death and destruction while they exploited and controlled their population through their socialist states.

#40

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179

02.07.2019 04:23AM

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@disgusted

There is no compassion in an evolutionary process.
Only that brought to it by humans and that is what frightens you, death is death.

In your worldview, death is the final curtain. There is no fear of death for those who trust God. As I get older though I realize how fleeting life on earth is. It goes by quickly.

It just shows the grim reality
Yes it does, but it's only grim if you refuse to accept the reality. It is a fantastic reality filled with opportunity. Opportunity wasted on a god fear.

Then enjoy yourself. From an evolutionary perspective, nothing really/ultimately matters but you can make it matter for a while and deceive yourself. You continually borrow from my Christian worldview when you make it matter.

Good can mean whatever those in power want it to mean.
To you apparently but not to me. I determine what is good, I'm a human.

What you call good is not so with abortion. It's all based on feelings and preference for you can draw no reference to an absolute or ultimate standard. As you say, you make it up, and when your idea conflicts with someone else there is war, greed, strife as the greater imposes their "good" on the weaker. So, your standards are no better than Hitler's.

Relativism is what wars are fought over because two different cultures or leaders cannot agree on which is the actual good. They have no means of determining this without a necessary Being since standards shift and change.

You deceive yourself by thinking a woman should have the right to kill another human being. What is good about that? It is a selfish thing to kill your own offspring. What if that human being were you, would you still feel the same?

#41

Debates: 0

Posts: 3,052

02.07.2019 05:27AM

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@PGA2.0

God destroyed wicked humans who would not repent and who were bent on violence and evil intentions.

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

Stalin, Hitler, Mao, were also wicked and caused a lot of death and destruction while they exploited and controlled their population through their socialist states.

Niether Stalin nor Mao were 'destroyed' and Hitler was more noted as a fascist than a socialist!

#42

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Posts: 4,959

02.07.2019 06:10AM

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@PGA2.0

God destroyed wicked humans who would not repent and who were bent on violence and evil intentions.

According to the story your god murdered all of humanity sans eight, that is much worse than any claim you are making about others. He also murdered every living thing along with them, thinking people understand who is more evil, your god or Hitler. Hitler doesn't come close.

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

Stalin, Hitler, Mao, were also wicked and caused a lot of death and destruction while they exploited and controlled their population through their socialist states.

You expect me to believe the justification invented by the IPSS for your god's evil, puuuuuuhlease.

#43

Debates: 0

Posts: 3,052

02.07.2019 06:34AM

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@PGA2.0

It just shows the grim reality of hopelessness and despair from your worldview.

The grim reality is that is no up-side to a someone dieing of cancer. The hope of an atheist is that one day cancer will be curable so everyone can live a full and happy life.

What, one asks, is the role of childhood leukemia in the theist worldview?

#44

Debates: 0

Posts: 4,959

02.07.2019 06:50AM

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@PGA2.0

In your worldview, death is the final curtain. There is no fear of death for those who trust God. As I get older though I realize how fleeting life on earth is. It goes by quickly.

Yes 3.5 billion years of precedent proves that death is the final curtain. You fear death so much that you try desperately believe that it doesn't exist and the fantasy of a god is your support mechanism. Fantasies aren't real you know. And that life you have spent believing in fantasies to pacify your fears has been a waste, because it's all we get.

Then enjoy yourself. From an evolutionary perspective, nothing really/ultimately matters but you can make it matter for a while and deceive yourself. You continually borrow from my Christian worldview when you make it matter.

Giving life meaning is all we have, it's you who deceives himself. Evolution is a fact and pretending to yourself that it's not for the sole purpose of pacifying your abject fear of death is the behaviour of a child. You have absolutely nothing that I could possibly wish to borrow and that's just something else that frightens you.

What you call good is not so with abortion. It's all based on feelings and preference for you can draw no reference to an absolute or ultimate standard. As you say, you make it up, and when your idea conflicts with someone else there is war, greed, strife as the greater imposes their "good" on the weaker. So, your standards are no better than Hitler's.

I am the ultimate arbiter for what is good and your ultimate standard is a fictional character invented a couple of thousand years ago by IPSS, it just doesn't match up to mine. Now you need to cite how many wars I've started. Hitlers standards were your god's standards they both practiced genocide, your god was allegedly better at it. You have no authority over any woman's body.

determining this without a necessary Being since standards shift and change.

The IPSS that you claim are an unchanging standard most definitely do change or you would be stoning non virgin wives.

You deceive yourself by thinking a woman should have the right to kill another human being. What is good about that? It is a selfish thing to kill your own offspring. What if that human being were you, would you still feel the same?

All this time and you still lie about my argument, godists can't exist without habitual lying it's no wonder you're a dying breed. When you can start telling the truth come back, I'm sick of dealing with your pathetic lies.

#45

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,008

02.07.2019 01:28PM

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@PGA2.0

Chance cannot reason yet if reason does not originate from a necessary Being it must originate through random (chance) processes. Demonstrate how.

I'm not the one making a supernatural claim. But it looks like you're a presuppositionalist, is that fair?

Also, since there is no reason for the universe (reason requires reasoning being) why do we constantly find reason in the universe, precise reasoning that we use mathematical equations to explain? If there is no sense to the universe because it was not created by an omnipotent, reasoning, and logical Being, then why do we keep finding reason in everything we analyze?

This is using the same word to mean different things. Reason FOR and reason IN are not the same. Reason FOR the first portion means something more akin to cause, but still is inexact, in that I'm not sure there needs to be a REASON for the universe. It just seems to be here, that's about all we know about it. Reason IN something. I think you're using that more like 'purpose.' There is no reason IN the universe, no purpose inherent. I mean unless you can demonstrate otherwise, right? I don't understand your assertion that we keep finding reason in everything we analyze. Let's demonstrate: what's the REASON (cause version) for the insurmountable distance between our sun and the next star? Gravitational attraction / particle mass distribution / initial dispersal of matter / couple of comet collisions, etc. Any of those is a feasible answer, because they obey the laws of nature and work with all known models. Now, what's the PURPOSE of the distance?

Truth value requires conscious, reasoning beings and yet you keep finding truths about the supposed chance universe. As many have pointed out, it is almost like we are thinking Someone else's thoughts after Him!

Truth does not require conscious, reasoning beings at all. If, for example, humanity was wiped off the face of the planet tomorrow by some horrible disease or cataclysm, that the sun would still rise in the east the next day would still be true.

But the question is how do reasoning beings come from chance happenstance?

Questions answered by evolution, and, I might point out, even if for no reason other than an abundance of magnanimity, I granted that your assertion here, the answer "Super Being" would not in any way mean it was the god described in the bible. It seems you think as humans we have the market cornered on reasoning by way of your version of god endowing us with the same. Would it be reasonable to say we understand the laws of gravity through reasoning? If so, can dogs also reason? Because they understand that gravity exists without any semblance of scientific theory.

Laws? How do we have laws if there is no lawgiver? If the universe is a chance happenstance then why should things remain constant? There is no reason they would or should, yet they do. What should that tell you? So why do you have these laws of nature without conscious agency and intent is not logical, is it? It does not compute.

The laws of nature a descriptive, not prescriptive. You know that this word, laws, also has numerous meanings and connotations. They describe and quantify what we observe. Again, you're trying to imbue purpose by calling it REASON. You're mixing the meanings. Can you demonstrate the conscious agency that said "And I'm going to make a hole in the universe so large that the people who observe it literally will not be able to accurately imagine how big it is? (Bootes void)" If not, then why appeal to it as it comes to the laws of nature?

And how do you get a "best" without an absolute, unchanging, objective standard or reference point? Why is your relative standard any better than any other relative standard?

Not this tired canard. Please. I didn't say there was a 'best,' nor did I say there needed to be. My standard is based entirely on how my actions affect the rest of my species, and my surroundings, just like yours. If my actions were repeatedly and demonstrably detrimental to society, I'd be removed from it in one way or another, and it's much, much harder to function and reproduce that way, when you're cast out. Natural selection takes over from there, and whatever it is in my genetic makeup that caused me to act that way, that is not continued into the next generation. It's really simple, it's how every successful species of pack animal develops. I am not sure there is free will, but in your scenario, there isn't free will either (unless you think god can be surprised somehow). Your 'best' standard has pronouncements in its books about stoning gay people, right? About genocides endorsed by an all powerful god who would be able to simply delete any offending individuals, right? About plundering neighboring tribes and raping women, right? Honestly though, if you're going to go with "Why should I be good if there's not Jesus? Without him, I'd be out pillaging til the cows come home," then please, by all means, continue believing whatever is keeping you from doing so.

Do you believe you'd be able to convince a Hindu that your standard is better than theirs? Have you ever? Or even closer: do you think you could convince Mopac that what he believes is wrong and he's therefore likely bound to hell, or that he could convince you of the same? Both of you think you're right, and the other one's wrong, and yet both believe in the same deity. If the answer is "It doesn't matter," then why do people choose denominations?

#46

Polytheist-Witch

Debates: 1

Posts: 4,188

Polytheist-Witch

02.07.2019 01:41PM

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@keithprosser

Same as any medical condition. Same as viruses and bacteria. Life. Get over it. The eutopia you think will exist on Earth will not ever exist on Earth or in the afterlife. You morons accuse us of wanting some special place when we die but you are even dumber since you think you have one while alive. Know how to have a world where everyone is like you, kill all the others who aren't just like you. Idiot.

#47

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,008

02.07.2019 02:00PM

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@PGA2.0

No, I have hope and I can offer it. I am being honest. What is your standard for honesty? Your worldview can't offer hope for someone dying of cancer without lying to them. You borrow from the Christian standard to comfort them. There is no compassion in an evolutionary process.

You admit you cannot offer such a person hope. It just shows the grim reality of hopelessness and despair from your worldview.

How does "Got cancer? Aw, well at least you're probably going to heaven" in any way offer honest comfort? It's a pacifier for a baby. Yeah, reality can be grim. Hiding from it doesn't change it. Compassion is an necessary element in the evolution of successful pack species: the ability to consider the consequences and how they effect the other pack members. If you don't have it, you act inappropriately and eventually your genetic material is weeded out. I don't feel hopeless and I don't walk around in despair. I just had a cousin lose his dad to cancer, should I have told hmi "Well, God did that, you should feel great?" or should I say "I'm so so sorry that you lost your dad. What can I do to help you get through this difficult time?" Should I say "I have an idea, let's sit here and think about why this was really a great thing in the grand scheme of things. You know, thank Jesus that your son never got to know his grandfather"? Sorry man, but the world can be a grim place, it's our responsibility to make it better.

Also, don't you only offer hope for Christians? Like if you met a Muslim, a devout Muslim, as sure as you are about your faith, dying of cancer, would you tell him he was going to hell for not accepting Jesus? Want to guess what an atheist would tell a Muslim? It's not hard. It's the same as what I'd tell my cousin.

#48

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02.07.2019 02:21PM

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@PGA2.0

[3] There is a reason for cancer, for death and decay. It is called sin, rebellion from God. It is the consequence of humans rejecting God and His guidance. It is humanity thinking they know better than God (and what a mess). And the inhumanity of human against human, how do you explain this moral evil if it is just our biological make-up working in whatever way they are programmed to work? What makes that evil or bad or wrong? Nothing. What makes the genocide of Stalin, or Mao wrong? What makes the suppression of Kim Jong-un on his people wrong? He is doing what he deems necessary for his survival and for a luxurious survival at that.

What death does is it makes us think about our temporary existence and the MEANING of life. Since the Fall we have thought about this meaning. We see meaning in everything we do and all that is around us yet you refuse to acknowledge why there is this meaning that our consciousness seeks out.

Ultimate, your worldview has no meaning to life. You are just a biological accident, and you just make up something because you like it, then you are gone, and no one cares (two generations down the line) about you.

[3] So when a mother is cradling the body of her dead six month old after succumbing to pediatric leukemia, your "comfort" to this person is "Too bad Adam and Eve ate that apple, that's why your baby is dead." This is not difficult: if you are violating a thinking being's free will (or illusion thereof), if you are causing bodily harm for the exercise of your own power, if you are without reason infringing on the life or wellbeing of the people around you, it's wrong. Now, there are tons and tons of conditions and issues and nuances there, but this is boiling it down to the very simple: huriting others when it's not necessary for your own survival or for the continue flourishing of our society and species is wrong, and knowing that doesn't require any thinking agent lving in another dimension to be real.

Since you have such a sure handle on it, what IS the meaning of this life? Specifically, what's the meaning of this life for a non-Christian?

You're almost right about meaning in my worldview. It's not there is NO meaning. It's there's no INHERENT, PREDETERMINED meaning. I have to make that on my own, and live with the consequences until I'm dead and eventually, yes, forgotten like the thousands of generations before me. I don't need to tell myself I'm anything more inherently special than anyone else, that something different is going to happen to me when I die than is going to happen to my friend Ibrahim or Sanjay, and unless I do something REALLY SUPER with my life, yeah, I'm just going to be forgotten. I don't know why that's so awful, I won't be around to care, I'll be dead.

#49

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02.07.2019 04:05PM

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@ludofl3x

Excellent posts, ludofl3x.

The obvious question is that as "I won't be around to care, I'll be dead" is true, why do we atheists care?. My guess is that you do think it matters that future generations do have some oil and African elephants and they don't nuke themselves into oblivion, even though it won't matter either way to your corpse.

I think we have to face up to that caring about the future is not rational. As you point out, we are genetically programmed to care but that isn't the same thing as caring being rational - caring is an instinct, not a logical inference!

I'm content to say that caring about the future is an article of faith. Faith is belief held without - or in spite of - evidence and proof. That the future matters cannot be proven (it's easier to prove the opposite) but one can still have faith that the future matters.

In general I am a hard-core monist physicalist, but on the single issue of 'mattering' I think we have to fall back on faith.

#50

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02.07.2019 04:11PM

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@PGA2.0

So it's never right to kill? Let's play a game then. You are a man with a gun. You notice a child walking into a maternity ward. You see this child is wearing a suicide bomb, and a crucifix necklace, so he might be Christian. You can kill him and save others. Do you?
I said it was never right for human beings to kill other INNOCENT human beings. You misrepresent my statement.

No, you said, quoting the commandments, "Thou shalt not kill." There are no conditions there. It's not thou shalt not kill innocent people. You're misrepresenting your book's words. I know, what it MEANS is "thou shalt not kill, unless XYZ conditions are present." But everything after the comma is what man adds to the text, not the text itself.

#51

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02.07.2019 04:13PM

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@keithprosser

The obvious question is that as "I won't be around to care, I'll be dead" is true, why do we atheists care?. My guess is that you do think it matters that future generations do have some oil and African elephants and they don't nuke themselves into oblivion, even though it won't matter either way to your corpse

I think even this goes back to the evolutionary drive to maintain your genetic material: you want your genetic material to be able to flourish even if you can't witness it. Functionally, though, we're saying the exact same thing. I don't need to think I will be looking down or up at my offspring going forward beaming with pride at what a great place I left them in, in order for me to consider the fate of my children (genetic offspring).

#52

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02.07.2019 04:29PM

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@ludofl3x

In the science forum I'd wouldn't bother to say anything because we're clearly on the same page. I was looking at it from the philosophical angle.

#53

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02.07.2019 05:55PM

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@Mopac

I am not using a juvenile trick to invent a "god" into existence. I am telling you what God means. As you do not respect merriam-webster as a valid source for the defining of terms, I have little doubt that you would also reject any writings from the church fathers or even the bible.

You already said that without this definition in the dictionary, it would still be what you believe. There's no reason to invoke the dictionary, it does not in any way have any bearing on if whatever your claim is, is true. It simply describes usages of words.

Clearly, The Ultimate Reality is not an invention. It exists.

Awesome! So where is it, and how is it different from regular old reality that we all share? Let me guess, it's the same as that somehow, but more majestic? It's certainly demonstrable, I mean beyond saying "OBVIOUSLY IT EXISTS OTHERWISE NOTHING WOULD BE HERE!", because that, my friend, is exactly the same as the regular reality.

You accusing me of using juvenile rhetroical tricks though is in fact a juvenile rhetorical trick.

Oh, one of my favorite arguments, the sure sign of solid reasoning: "I know you are, but what am I?"

You and PGA are basically the same argument: you presuppose the existence of something because you think it's necessary, without ever demonstrating this necessity,

My argument is that you are debsting a straw man opponent because you can't accept that God is The Ultimate Reality. That is what God means.

I don't think you know what a straw man is, and based on this, I'm not entirely sure you know what an argument is. It's different than assertion. You're making an assertion. An argument has reasoning demonstrated.

You have no hope of understanding what is being said because when I say "This is a football" you say "No, it is a hand egg, and you can't prove it is a football".

Meh, not really. If you said "this is a football," I would think "Well what's my experience with footballs? Does that object appear to be a football like every other football I've ever seen? Does it behave like a football if I throw it or kick it? Maybe I'm confused. Let me ask a third party, is that a football? That might help. Maybe if I don't think it's a football, but these four people all say yeah, that's definitely a football, then maybe I'm wrong." That's not what you do. You go "ULTIMATE REALITY EXISTS" and I say "How's that different from regular reality?" and you say "IT'S MORE ULTIMATE!" or something equally vapid. It's not the same, at all. You're saying "this is the ultimate reality!" Everyone else says "That kinda just looks like regular reality." And you say "IT IS ULTIMATE" and expect everyone to go oh yeah, you know, you're right! You're skipping several steps.

It doesn't help your case that, again, PGA ostensibly believes in the same god as you, but you are on totally different pages. You point at something and say "THIS IS A NERFLBERDLER." He points at the same thing and says "THAT IS A FLINGELHOPPER." You're using the same evidence...what I'd like to see is for you to agree on one definite and final defintion of what god is, then we can discuss that one. How about that?

Well, you clearly don't understand what I believe.

Yay! We agree on something!

#54

Goldtop

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Goldtop

02.07.2019 06:14PM

You already said that without this definition in the dictionary, it would still be what you believe. There's no reason to invoke the dictionary, it does not in any way have any bearing on if whatever your claim is, is true. It simply describes usages of words.

Absolutely, and Mopac has been told that countless times by almost everyone here, but continues to repeat it as he has nothing else to say.

#55

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

02.07.2019 06:57PM

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@ludofl3x

You don't know what I believe. Lets start there.

Lesson 1

The Ultimate Reality is God.

Do you believe that there is Ultimate Reality?

#56

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

02.07.2019 07:01PM

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@Goldtop

There certainly is good reason to use the dictionary.

It is the easiest way to prove that atheists are simply being arbitrary in their dismissal of God, and that reason or truth has nothing to do with their aversions.

It establishes very solidly that it is impossible for me to convince the atheist of anything, because they are dishonest and foolish.

Of course, nothing is established for the nihilistic atheist, because nothing can be established. Reality for them is whatever they can get away with.

#57

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179

https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-fascism-and-vs-socialism/

02.07.2019 07:06PM

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@keithprosser

God destroyed wicked humans who would not repent and who were bent on violence and evil intentions.

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

Stalin, Hitler, Mao, were also wicked and caused a lot of death and destruction while they exploited and controlled their population through their socialist states.
Niether Stalin nor Mao were 'destroyed' and Hitler was more noted as a fascist than a socialist!

After the Flood, God promised He would never destroy the earth again as He did with the Flood.

After the Flood, God took a people (Israel) to make Himself known to the world. Israel agreed to live according to the covenant/mandates God decreed (Exodus 24:3, 7) and to show how holy and pure in nature God is. After revealing the inadequacies of these people to live according to that covenant He judged them and then He set up a new and better covenant to restore a relationship with Him. So, for those who trust in Jesus Christ and acknowledge who He is, our punishment for sin has been covered and atoned for by Another. For those who do not live by faith in Him, they will answer for every wrongful action with their own merit or lack of it once they physically die. Thus, He is not interacting in the same manner as He did in the OT and during the theocracy employed in Israel, yet sin is still judged.

***

You could call Hitler that but the party was a socialist party. You could argue that fascism is a more extreme form of socialism.

"Fascism and Socialism are two schools of thought that show some difference between them when it comes to their principles and concepts. Fascism is an authoritarian, nationalistic political ideology. On the other hand, socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are either owned by the state or owned commonly but cooperatively controlled. This is the main difference between the two terms. The difference that arises at the core idea of fascism and socialism makes them two whole different ideologies. However, if you put that fact aside, you will see that both fascism and socialism are ideologies where strict rules are applied to the members of the society."

(Bye-bye freedom)

Mussolini was a fascist.

"Nazi" is short for Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Workers' Party). The nickname is based on the first two syllables (as pronounced in German) and was already current in 1923 in Bavaria.

http://www.answers.com/Q/What_does_Nazi_stand_for

#58

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179

02.07.2019 07:16PM

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@disgusted

God destroyed wicked humans who would not repent and who were bent on violence and evil intentions.
According to the story your god murdered all of humanity sans eight, that is much worse than any claim you are making about others. He also murdered every living thing along with them, thinking people understand who is more evil, your god or Hitler. Hitler doesn't come close.

God did not murder them. He is the giver and taker of life. You are His creation and He has the right to do with you whatever He will, yet He never punishes the innocent. If He takes an innocent life He restores it. Thus, we see Jesus restored to life.

That is the difference between you and God, you do not create life in and of yourself, nor do you restore life after death (for the righteous) and in a better place.

God is not evil. He has given you over to the desire of your heart, to do what ought not to be done, but you understand that when you do wrong you are answerable for it. In a materialist/atheist universe there is no justice for Hitler and those (like in the days before the Flood) who do wrong. In your atheistic universe, there is no justice for the crimes of Hitler. In your universe, the crimes that people get away with every day, that sometimes result in the death of millions, do not always get addressed. Where is the justice there?

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

Stalin, Hitler, Mao, were also wicked and caused a lot of death and destruction while they exploited and controlled their population through their socialist states.
You expect me to believe the justification invented by the IPSS for your god's evil, puuuuuuhlease.

Believe whatever you want. You will anyway. If you want to be wise you would heed His warning.

#59

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https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-fascism-and-vs-socialism/

02.07.2019 07:17PM

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@PGA2.0

I checked the link... you didn't quote the summary line:

• Fascism is the opposite of Socialism.

I am very aware of what 'nazi' means. Names are, however, oft misleading! North Korea is officially the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea".

#60

Debates: 7

Posts: 3,179