How can normal people exterminate human beings without feeling?

Author: Castin

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#31
sadolite
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@secularmerlin
I refuse to engage your stupid question. If you don't know what a pedophile is there is no point in any further discussion. There are no levels or degrees of pedophila. You are a pedophile and sexually molest little children and look at child porn or you don't.
#32
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@sadolite
I'm not asking you for a definition I'm asking for an opinion. Should pedophiles be afforded human rights or have they forfeited them?
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#33
Castin
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Himmler quote.

I also want to talk to you, quite frankly, on a very grave matter. Among ourselves it should be mentioned quite frankly, and yet we will never speak of it publicly. ... I mean the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish race. It's one of those things it is easy to talk about -- "The Jewish race is being exterminated", says one party member, "that's quite clear, it's in our program -- elimination  of the Jews, and we're doing it, exterminating them." And then they come, 80 million worthy Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. Of course the others are vermin, but this one is an A-1 Jew. Not one of all those who talk this way has witnessed it, not one of them has been through it. Most of you must know what it means when 100 corpses are lying side by side, or 500 or 1000. To have stuck it out and at the same time -- apart from exceptions caused by human weakness -- to have remained decent fellows, that is what has made us hard.
"Remained decent fellows." 🙁

38 days later

#34
Plisken
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@sadolite
It appears you lack the moral fortitude necessary to be entrusted with lethal force.  That does not make you a "bad person", but failing to accept it could.   Please exercise caution and remain on the safe side of your limitations.  If a group entertains that its okay, necessary or what have you to shoot someone, or toss them in an oven, try to distance yourself from that association.  Don't keep weapons for self defense in morally questionable settings either, and go out of your way to avoid such navigation in trouble.  With care and good will you should still be able to contribute to society and grow as a person without harming it.  
#35
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Just because you think pedophiles are virtuous and should not die means nothing nor says anything about my morality. But it says everything about yours. You would let other children be molested. I won't.
#36
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@secularmerlin
There's no such thing as human rights. Either someone values you, or they  do not.
#37
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Dehumanize.

They are no longer people, they are lice. They are cigarettes. It's time to quit smoking.

#38
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@Buddamoose
You mean like the right's Deep State? guffaw
#39
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Perhaps you might like to confront the many on here who dehumanise Muslims and see if you see any correlation.
#40
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@disgusted
That's a two way street except one has 4 lanes and the other only has one.
#41
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@sadolite
Is there a way to determine which post is being responded to?

That's a two way street except one has 4 lanes and the other only has one.
Because I don't understand.
#42
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@disgusted
"Perhaps you might like to confront the many on here who dehumanise Muslims and see if you see any correlation."

"That's a two way street except one has 4 lanes and the other only has one."
#43
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@sadolite
No one is going to physically stop you from acting out in murdering people without an explicit threat, because that's insane.  Do not murder people, and please get help
#44
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@sadolite
None the wiser.
#45
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@Plisken
Many are only alive because it's against the law to kill them. True story. If it was not against the law to kill pedophiles there wouldn't be any. Or at best a pedophile could only get away with it once, not 600 f-ing times like in the catholic church.

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#46
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@secularmerlin
I'm not asking you for a definition I'm asking for an opinion. Should pedophiles be afforded human rights or have they forfeited them?
Where do you stand on this matter?
#47
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@Castin
What is the utility? What are we accomplishing by denying or granting such rights (whatever you consider them to be) from such individuals?

13 days later

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#48
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@secularmerlin
Do you think justice is only concerned with utility? Or do you think it's also concerned with a sense of balance, with what people deserve?

A broader way to ask your question would probably be, should we afford human rights to those who violate the human rights of others? But to answer you -- it depends on the right, and the crime. For instance, denying an offender the right to freedom ensures he is off the streets and cannot harm more victims. Denying an offender the right to counsel will only undermine the fairness of the justice system and the basic civil liberties of all citizens.
#49
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@Castin
Do you think justice is only concerned with utility?
I'm not completely sure what counts as justice. I am concerned with utility since good and bad are subjective but utility is objective. What is right or wrong is our opinion what will and will not help achieve a particular goal is observable.

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#50
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@secularmerlin
I wouldn't say it's objective, but I would say it's less subjective. We're still always gonna bitch about what works and what doesn't, what goals are worth investing resources in, etc. But I'm often uncertain of justice, as well. I find reality an experience of persistent doubt.
#51
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@Castin
We assign value to our world. That includes moral values.
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#52
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@secularmerlin
Well, obviously.
#53
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@Castin
So all value is subjective.
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#54
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@secularmerlin
I really haven't seen anything at all to suggest otherwise. Have you?
#55
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@Castin
No I have not.

715 days later

#56
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@Castin
How can normal people exterminate human beings without feeling? - Castin
'Routine, Perceived Necessity, Dehumanization, Distancing, Sterilization.

But even then, I think you mistake what's occurring within the perpetrator, though I may be mistaken.
The history of the Holocaust during WW2, is 'unusually well documented, I'd say. Of interviews, journals, records, and administrative actions by those involved.
Rudolf Höss, the commandant of Auschwitz concentration camp, seemed to shock those he spoke to, the psychologists and such, I'd say. That they remarked heavily in their writings his apparent lack of emotions.
But the words and actions of Höss, contain emotion.

"On one occasion two small children were so absorbed in some game that they quite refused to let their mother tear them away from it. Even the Jews of the Special Detachment were reluctant to pick the children up. The imploring look in the eyes of the mother, who certainly knew what was happening, is something I shall never forget. The people were already in the gas-chamber and becoming restive, and I had to act. Everyone was looking at me. I nodded to the junior non-commissioned officer on duty and he picked up the screaming, struggling children in his arms and carried them into the gas-chamber, accompanied by their mother who was weeping in the most heart-rending fashion. My pity was so great that I longed to vanish from the scene: yet I might not show the slightest trace of emotion." 1

You yourself Casten, mention Himmler.
I also want to talk to you, quite frankly, on a very grave matter. Among ourselves it should be mentioned quite frankly, and yet we will never speak of it publicly. ... I mean the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish race. It's one of those things it is easy to talk about -- "The Jewish race is being exterminated", says one party member, "that's quite clear, it's in our program -- elimination  of the Jews, and we're doing it, exterminating them." And then they come, 80 million worthy Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. Of course the others are vermin, but this one is an A-1 Jew. Not one of all those who talk this way has witnessed it, not one of them has been through it. Most of you must know what it means when 100 corpses are lying side by side, or 500 or 1000. To have stuck it out and at the same time -- apart from exceptions caused by human weakness -- to have remained decent fellows, that is what has made us hard.
He is able to recognize the horror of such action. But not enough to 'stop, unfortunately.
Anecdotal words of others, also claim to speak of Himmler's early reactions in person to the Holocaust.

"Himmler who visits Auschwitz and vomits" 2
"General Wolff relates that at Minsk, where a largish number of Jews were being shot by the SS in a trench mass grave, Himmler felt ill and had a vomiting attack. His adjutant had to fortify him with a good dose of cognac from the flask he carried." 3

Though the books are in storage, so I can't find the source, 'one of the Nuremberg books written, either by Gustave Gilbert or  Leon Goldensohn relate, (I think), one of Himmler's subordinates relating how he asked some boy if he was sure that he wasn't Jewish, that he was an Aryan who did not belong there. The boy answered he was Jewish, at which Himmler replied he could not help him then, and walked away.
It's twisted, but it relates to me the humanity of those who perpetrated the Holocaust.

And that's the rub I'm trying to get at in this post.
The conclusion that a human is a monster, or devoid of feelings, ignores the truth of the matter.
They are human, and humans are capable of terrible acts.

There is a reason other than mechanical function, that the Nazi's turned to gas, rather than bullets.
The psychological toll, upon those pulling the trigger, face to face with other humans.


To speak in a more summerly manner though, of my opinions.

Routine. People desensitize themselves and their emotions, through repetition, and the following of regulation.
This applies to many social human interaction.

Perceived Necessity. People are willing to commit to many acts, if they believe it to be necessary to some end.

Dehumanization. A turning away of recognition of the qualities, that make the other necessitate and deserve that which we give other humans we recognize.

Distancing. The 'walls of a gashouse are not human, the 'ink in the order and ledger are not human.
A statistic, not a tragedy, to misquote a Russian.

Sterilization. Making it as nice and clean as they can. Similar to distancing.