A classic: From creator god ==> Specific God

Author: ludofl3x

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@Mopac
Cabbage is a vegetable isn't a logical argument either.
This is an ontological statement.
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DUMP the MIDDLE EAST GOD hoaxes in the TRASH where they came from


NO HUMAN ever needs to kneel or beg for some kind of salvation from a pathetic
JEW-JESUS-ALLAH GOD preaching Parasite Vampire...

The Middle East GODS are a DISGRACE to all humanity and MUST be relegated
to MYTHOLOGY for stupid people....

In going forward to a HEALTHY and GREEN ENGINEERED planet...the Middle East 
GODS have reached their limit....these are horrifically OBSOLETE and OPPRESSIVE
CULTS built around fake knockoff GODS from other civilizations in the region...

NONE of these idiotic GODS = JEW-JESUS-ALLAH is anything more than a JOKE

but the DEATH and DESTRUCTION caused by psychopaths who preach this TRASH
is NO JOKE...they are TERRORISTS...seeking assimilation of humanity into a 
divided existence...JEW....then JESUS Vampires murdering MUSLIM Vampires
and visa versa...a NO WIN DELIBERATE SYSTEM to control humans and the planet


GET RID OF the JEW-JESUS-ALLAH God GARBAGE >>>>NOW...let these Parasites
murder each other into extinction...

Imagine how amazing EARTH would be without these JEW-JESUS-ALLAH GOD infested
PARASITES...no more retarded CHURCH-MOSQUE-TEMPLE CULTS...no more WARS
no more STARVATION and economic deprivation....

The NEW EARTH without these JEW-JESUS-ALLAH GOD Vampires = AWESOME !
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@3RU7AL
You are a master of the Gish Gallop.
Thank you!

When someone uses ad homs instead of laying out their case there is something wrong with their argument, IMO. 
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@PGA2.0
When someone uses ad homs instead of laying out their case there is something wrong with their argument, IMO. 
Citation please.
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@3RU7AL
When someone uses ad homs instead of laying out their case there is something wrong with their argument, IMO. 
Citation please.

For what?
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@PGA2.0
For what?
For someone presumably using ad hominems in this discussion?
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@ludofl3x
Let's say we take for granted that the universe is here as it is not because of any natural reaction or coincidence, but instead that it was created by a thinking agent. There is no real rational reason for granting this, at least none I've ever seen argued convincingly here or elsewhere, but let's skip that part, I'm saying, as an olive branch to the believer. It doesn't matter, then, if you subscribe to a big bang cosmology BUT it was started by a thinking agent, or if you think the world was created 10000 years ago. What I'm curious about is how does one justify going from "creator" to any god with a capital G. How, essentially, can you convince someone else that your version of the creator is correct, and by extension your religion is the right one, and theirs is INcorrect, and therefore the wrong one? 
Presumably this is when the importance of a sacred text comes into play.

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Added: 02.07.19 12:24PM
--> @ludofl3x
That isn't what I am saying at all.
The Ultimate Reality is not creation. It is God no matter what anybody says. No one can undermine that.
I challenge you to find any god greater, because you won't.  There is none. 

Now if you wanted to understand my religion it would take a great deal more time and cooperation. Since you will not afford me this, I can sum it up as sincerity of faith and charity.


SPOKEN like a TRUE........mentally MOLESTED.....Parasite VAMPIRE of some horrifically OPPRESSIVE CULT GROUP.....

Come and let me ASSIMILATE your into our CULT....this is the DECEIT that permeates the CHRISTIAN LIAR PSYCHOPATHS....

"GOD" ?.....  never does the parasite VAMPIRE...mopac....disclose his/her ?  so called "GOD"   it's ALWAYS about the CHURCH CULT
...."GOD" is the WORD TOOL used as a scapegoat to cull weak minds into the CULT DISEASE....this "mopac parasite"  is a CULT slave drone
and serves the clowns who play GOD in their Halloween Glory Gown costumes...YOU the potential victim are WORTHLESS until sucked into
the CULT...then YOU must SERVE....

This is why the "mopac parasite" never discusses "GOD" by name or anything other than as a LEAD to the CHURCH CULT GROUP...
they want to own YOU...and especially your family and young children....

Just review any post by this "mopac Parasite VAMPIRE CULT drone"   everything points to ....having to learn more about the CULT...
hidden with words like ORTHODOX CHURCH ?   more like mind crippling and life sucking CULT....

SOLUTION =  Never ever fall for the smooth talking CULT parasite VAMPIRE speak...this is never about HEALTH and WELLNESS
it's about how you serve the CULT...OBEY...SUFFER...SURRENDER YOUR MIND and LIFE to these Parasites...YOU will live and 
DIE in darkness....led along to your grave by these clever mind and life destroying CULT PARASITES....recognize their total DECEPTION
and NEVER accept any of it...EVER...it is loaded with traps and mazes without exit....the place for the LIVING DEAD...= mopac
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@ludofl3x
...how does one justify going from "creator" to any god with a capital G. [?]
Excellent point.
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@Castin
Presumably this is when the importance of a sacred text comes into play.
(EVEN IFF) The Jesus was a real, historical human being.

(EVEN IFF) The (historically verifiable) prophecies of the Jewish and Christian scriptures are 100% true.

Neither of these things lend the slightest credibility to either the Jewish or Christian religious beliefs.

In the exact same way,

(EVEN IFF) Gilgamesh was a real, historical human being.

(EVEN IFF) The (historically verifiable) events and prophecies of the Epic of Gilgamesh are 100% true.

Neither of these things lend the slightest credibility to the ancient Sumerian religious beliefs. 
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@3RU7AL
Well obviously.
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@keithprosser
If the time, space, matter continuum had a beginning then what is the reason for it since somehow it came to be. God provides sufficient and necessary reason
Possible reason, but not a 'sufficient and neccessary' one! 
Then answer the reason why the universe came to be. Why would "chance" give sufficient reason?

"[The entity that gave moses 10 commandments] provides a sufficient and neccessary reason for the universe" is just not true!  YHWH creating the universe might be sufficient for the world to exist, but its not neccessary it was Him.  It could have been zeus, or brahma - either would be sufficient, but it ain't necessarily any of them! 
What are you talking about, Keith? Why would The Ten Commandments give a reason for the universe? What reason would be sufficient for the universe from a human perspective? We still have various views that compete with each other. 

The evidence for Zeus or Brahma is nowhere near as detailed as the biblical evidence for God. What historical evidence can you offer for Zeus interacting with humans?


Prophecy provides a reasonable and logical example that is not easily refuted.
I am at a loss to know how to prove a piece of writing is not genuine prophecy.  It's not hard to show a 'prophecy' isn't neccessarily miraculous, but completely proving it?- Not possible.    


What is the reasonableness for your view as opposed to the historical and biblical view I can present is the question?
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@PGA2.0
Then answer the reason why the universe came to be. Why would "chance" give sufficient reason?
It's interesting that you asked 'why' not 'how'.  I'm guessing that means you're not asking about the mechanics of the origin but about its purpose; you are asking why is there a universe at all.

In my worldview there is no teleological reason for the universe.  It did not come about in order to achieve some future goal - it just came about.   I think that's very nihiistic! I accept its truth because it's where the logic takes me, not because I like it.

if you insist the universe must have a 'teleological why' then we must disagree.


"[The entity that gave moses 10 commandments] provides a sufficient and neccessary reason for the universe" is just not true!  YHWH creating the universe might be sufficient for the world to exist, but its not neccessary it was Him.  It could have been zeus, or brahma - either would be sufficient, but it ain't necessarily any of them! 
What are you talking about, Keith? Why would The Ten Commandments give a reason for the universe? What reason would be sufficient for the universe from a human perspective? We still have various views that compete with each other. 

Not 'the ten commanments' - 'the entity that gave moses the ten commandments'.  What I am pointing out is: that earlier you claimed God (ie the Christian god) was a 'sufficient and neccessary' reason for the universe to exist.   That is to say 'The entity that gave moses 10 commandments provides a sufficient and neccessary reason for the universe'.  Clearly (to me anyway) that while YHWH provides  sufficient explanation of the universe, it does not follow that was neccessaily Him that did it!

The evidence for Zeus or Brahma is nowhere near as detailed as the biblical evidence for God. What historical evidence can you offer for Zeus interacting with humans?

There are myths and legends about the gods interating with humans in every religion. 

Prophecy provides a reasonable and logical example that is not easily rI am at a loss to know how to prove a piece of writing is not genuine prophecy.  It's not hard to show a 'prophecy' isn't neccessarily miraculous, but completely proving it?- Not possible.  
What is the reasonableness for your view as opposed to the historical and biblical view I can present is the question?
I know that people are superstitious and make up stories that aren't true.   What is more reasonble - a virgin gave birth or someone made the story up? 


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@keithprosser
Then answer the reason why the universe came to be. Why would "chance" give sufficient reason?
It's interesting that you asked 'why' not 'how'.  I'm guessing that means you're not asking about the mechanics of the origin but about its purpose; you are asking why is there a universe at all.
I could ask the why or how, but it is interesting that your worldview cannot make sense of the "why" which is why I say a necessary being is necessary for understanding the how and why with certainty. Otherwise, we are always at the mercy of the next paradigm shift in understanding.


In my worldview there is no teleological reason for the universe.  It did not come about in order to achieve some future goal - it just came about.   I think that's very nihiistic! I accept its truth because it's where the logic takes me, not because I like it.
Exactly - no reason - that is why I say a necessary being is necessary. 

"Just came about," says nothing. It is more blind faith



if you insist the universe must have a 'teleological why' then we must disagree.


"[The entity that gave moses 10 commandments] provides a sufficient and neccessary reason for the universe" is just not true!  YHWH creating the universe might be sufficient for the world to exist, but its not neccessary it was Him.  It could have been zeus, or brahma - either would be sufficient, but it ain't necessarily any of them! 
What are you talking about, Keith? Why would The Ten Commandments give a reason for the universe? What reason would be sufficient for the universe from a human perspective? We still have various views that compete with each other. 

Not 'the ten commanments' - 'the entity that gave moses the ten commandments'.  What I am pointing out is: that earlier you claimed God (ie the Christian god) was a 'sufficient and neccessary' reason for the universe to exist.   That is to say 'The entity that gave moses 10 commandments provides a sufficient and neccessary reason for the universe'.  Clearly (to me anyway) that while YHWH provides  sufficient explanation of the universe, it does not follow that was neccessaily Him that did it!
If the universe has a why and how behind it then God would be that sufficient and necessary reason because you can't point me to a human being (other than Jesus Christ) who could be. If you think otherwise then do so. I know I am not a sufficient or a necessary reason for the universe and I know you cannot demonstrate you are either. 


The evidence for Zeus or Brahma is nowhere near as detailed as the biblical evidence for God. What historical evidence can you offer for Zeus interacting with humans?

There are myths and legends about the gods interating with humans in every religion. 
That is why the question becomes, If God, who is God? What are the reasons for the different gods?


Prophecy provides a reasonable and logical example that is not easily rI am at a loss to know how to prove a piece of writing is not genuine prophecy.  It's not hard to show a 'prophecy' isn't neccessarily miraculous, but completely proving it?- Not possible.  
What is the reasonableness for your view as opposed to the historical and biblical view I can present is the question?
I know that people are superstitious and make up stories that aren't true.   What is more reasonble - a virgin gave birth or someone made the story up?  



For a perfect human being, the corruptible seed of Adam was not used. What other human being is this claim said of that has good corroborating evidence?

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@PGA2.0
For a perfect human being, the corruptible seed of Adam was not used. What other human being is this claim said of that has good corroborating evidence?
I guess women are not born with "original sin".
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@3RU7AL
Congratulations on understanding the theology behind Mary's 'immaculate conception'!

According to doctrine, Mary was indeed without original sin.
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@keithprosser
Congratulations on understanding the theology behind Mary's 'immaculate conception'!

According to doctrine, Mary was indeed without original sin.
So Mary's mother (grandmother of the Jesus) was also free of "original sin"?
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@3RU7AL
For a perfect human being, the corruptible seed of Adam was not used. What other human being is this claim said of that has good corroborating evidence?
I guess women are not born with "original sin".

Adam was the Federal Head in that he represented us before God. It was through Adam that sin was originally imputed to humanity and through Adam's choice that humanity was separated from a close relationship with God. God told him if he ate he would surely die. The NT charges death and sin to him like it charges redemption and life to Jesus Christ as the Federal Head for those who trust in Him. Because of what Adam did we died to God, were separated from His presence. 

So, through Adam's seed, we are reckoned. It was through Adam's seed that our natures changed in that we no longer maintained that relationship with God. 

Thus, in the NT we see the term "born again." We must be regenerated and restored to have a relationship with God.  

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@PGA2.0
I could ask the why or how, but it is interesting that your worldview cannot make sense of the "why" which is why I say a necessary being is necessary for understanding the how and why with certainty. Otherwise, we are always at the mercy of the next paradigm shift in understanding.
I think I do 'make sense of the Why"' - However I don't think there is a 'why'.  That is I don't  think a god decided 'I want man to exist, therefore I must create a universe for him to exist within'. 

Why does ice float?  It's because ice is less dense than water and because that is so we get icebergs.  But 'to make icebergs' is not 'why' of ice being less dense than water.  There is no plan or objective behind it; it just so happens that ice is less dense than water and that accident of nature  has consquences - icebergs being one.  In the same way we are a consequence of the accidental details of the physics that arose out of the big bang. 

The evidence for that is better than the evidence for anything in the bible!

That is why the question becomes, If God, who is God? What are the reasons for the different gods?
I not sure you ever asked that question before!  But as you have asked it, I'd say the answer lies in human psychology.
 

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@PGA2.0
So, through Adam's seed, we are reckoned. It was through Adam's seed that our natures changed in that we no longer maintained that relationship with God.   
I guess women are not born with "original sin".

It sounds like women should be in charge of everything related to Christian churches.
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@3RU7AL
So Mary's mother (grandmother of the Jesus) was also free of "original sin"?
Not according to dogma. 

It was theorised in the middle ages that Mary was born by virgin birth.but that as ruled out by the church in 1677.   Currently, the Catholic Church teaches that God acted upon Mary in the first moment of her conception, keeping her "immaculate".



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@keithprosser
I could ask the why or how, but it is interesting that your worldview cannot make sense of the "why" which is why I say a necessary being is necessary for understanding the how and why with certainty. Otherwise, we are always at the mercy of the next paradigm shift in understanding.
I think I do 'make sense of the Why"' - However I don't think there is a 'why'.  That is I don't  think a god decided 'I want man to exist, therefore I must create a universe for him to exist within'.  
You already told me there is no reason for the why concerning the universe, so you can't make sense of why in relation to it. 


Why does ice float?  It's because ice is less dense than water and because that is so we get icebergs.  But 'to make icebergs' is not 'why' of ice being less dense than water.  There is no plan or objective behind it; it just so happens that ice is less dense than water and that accident of nature  has consquences - icebergs being one.  In the same way we are a consequence of the accidental details of the physics that arose out of the big bang. 
You can give reasons for things in the universe but not the universe itself. You keep finding reasons which speak volumes to a reasoning Being as the cause for that reason you find. 


The evidence for that is better than the evidence for anything in the bible!

That is why the question becomes, If God, who is God? What are the reasons for the different gods?
I not sure you ever asked that question before!  But as you have asked it, I'd say the answer lies in human psychology.
Ah, the old Freudian psychosis!  Freud said it and you believe it! And Dawkin's added to it! Your on that bandwagon, going nowhere. 

Throughout civilization, a majority of people have believed in an ultimate higher Being but atheism and scientism, which has zero explainability IMO, is causing some to think they are the answer. 

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@3RU7AL
So, through Adam's seed, we are reckoned. It was through Adam's seed that our natures changed in that we no longer maintained that relationship with God.   
I guess women are not born with "original sin".
"Original sin" was the sin charged to ADAM. We inherit sin because of his decision. God gave him the command and the consequences of disobedience. Thus, his disobedience was the cause of corruption for humanity. We (male and female) inherit an Adamic nature that is separated from God.

My thinking is that Jesus was not separated in that He did not receive the nature of Adam that caused the corruption (conceived through the Holy Spirit, not the human male). Although He was a human original sin was not imputed to Him via Adam's nature, thus He had a pure nature and could decide to sin or not to sin. He was tempted yet He did not sin before God. Thus He represents those who believe as the new Federal Head. 

Adam, (before he sinned) was also conceived by God and was without sin until he disobeyed. Jesus never disobeyed God. 

And He was in the wilderness forty days being tempted by Satan; and He was with the wild beasts, and the angels were ministering to Him.

Hebrews 2:18
For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.


It sounds like women should be in charge of everything related to Christian churches.
Women sin just like men do because they inherit the nature of Adam transferred through the seed of the male since two sets of chromosomes combine. 
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@PGA2.0
You can give reasons for things in the universe but not the universe itself. 

I'll skip that you're using two different definitions of reason in the same sentence here so that I can ask you, since you seem to know, what is the reason for the universe, exactly?
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@ludofl3x
You can give reasons for things in the universe but not the universe itself. 

I'll skip that you're using two different definitions of reason in the same sentence here so that I can ask you, since you seem to know, what is the reason for the universe, exactly?

The universe demonstrates the majesty and glory of God and teaches us that the reason for it (and us) is that we might know God who has purposed our existence. Thus, we continue to find meaning and purpose through what He has made because there is a reason behind the Creation for its existence. 

Psalm 19 (NASB)
The Works and the Word of God.
For the choir director. A Psalm of David.
19 The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.


Psalm 8 (NASB)
The Lord’s Glory and Man’s Dignity.
8 O Lord, our Lord,
How majestic is Your name in all the earth,
Who have displayed Your splendor above the heavens!
From the mouth of infants and nursing babes
You have established strength

Because of Your adversaries,
To make the enemy and the revengeful cease.
When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained;
What is man that You take thought of him,

Romans 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 


God demonstrates to humanity that what is made pours forth reasons for Him and humanity has understood this since the record of history began. That is why we find most cultures, if not every culture, has a concept of a higher being that they worship. The problem is that if you do not worship God as He is you worship an idol, a human construct. To avoid this happening Jews and Christians believe God has demonstrated to humanity in His revelation who He is. Thus, as Romans explains, we who reject God in our unrighteousness are without excuse. 

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@PGA2.0
I have as much difficulty following your logic as you do following mine!

You already told me there is no reason for the why concerning the universe, so you can't make sense of why in relation to it. 

You can give reasons for things in the universe but not the universe itself. You keep finding reasons which speak volumes to a reasoning Being as the cause for that reason you find. 
I suggest that as 'Reason' in this context refers to 'teleological reason' or purpose we use the word purpose; it's less ambiguous.

I do not believe the universe came into being in order for some future state to come about.  That is the universe has produced human beings, but it did not come into existence in order for humans to exist, just as ice being less dense than water is not in order for icebergs to exist.  Why icebergs float has an answer - it's because ice is less dense than water.   Why icebergs exist at all or why ice is less dense than water has no good answer - things just happen to be like that.

I don't accept I "can't make sense" of the why question. I think you don't like my answer to it!

Ah, the old Freudian psychosis!  Freud said it and you believe it! And Dawkin's added to it! Your on that bandwagon, going nowhere. 

Throughout civilization, a majority of people have believed in an ultimate higher Being but atheism and scientism, which has zero explainability IMO, is causing some to think they are the answer. 
I think you are also aboard a bandwagon!  Let's not take that route of 'debate'?  


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@keithprosser
Not according to dogma.  

It was theorised in the middle ages that Mary was born by virgin birth.but that as ruled out by the church in 1677.   Currently, the Catholic Church teaches that God acted upon Mary in the first moment of her conception, keeping her "immaculate".
I just have to wonder why god didn't "act" upon Adam and Eve's children to remove "original sin" from them, thus saving us and everyone else a whole lot of trouble.
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@PGA2.0
The universe demonstrates the majesty and glory of God and teaches us that the reason for it (and us) is that we might know God who has purposed our existence. 
But you've made not one step toward showing why your version of god is correct and all others are wrong. This is the point of the whole idea: you just say "God created the universe for the sole purpose of creating people who would say how awesome he is all the time," you have skipped many, many steps and only created more questions. Remember, the bible is the CLAIM, not the evidence. This is where your god comes from, the bible, it's where his character and all of the quotes you are taking come from. Of course the bible says god's real, otherwise who cares about the bible. Please feel free, at any point, to demonstrate EVIDENCE that your god's real and your assessments of its purpose are in any way accurate. 

For clarity: the bible is not evidence of itself or anything in it. Otherwise, I will start claiming that this world used to be Westeros and you better figure out which of the seven gods of Westeros you worship, because they're real because they're in a book!
3RU7AL
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@PGA2.0
Vishnu demonstrates to humanity that what is made pours forth reasons for it and humanity has understood this since the record of history began. That is why we find most cultures, if not every culture, has a concept of a higher being that they worship. The problem is that if you do not worship Vishnu as it is you worship an idol, a human construct. To avoid this happening the chosen ones believe Vishnu has demonstrated to humanity in its revelation who it is. Thus, as the Bhagavad Gita explains, we who reject Vishnu in our unrighteousness are without excuse. 
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@3RU7AL
I just have to wonder why god didn't "act" upon Adam and Eve's children to remove "original sin" from them, thus saving us and everyone else a whole lot of trouble.

I have to wonder which bible verse it was that said "and this original sin shall be commuted onto all people forever until the end of time through the pairs of human chromosomes that won't be discovered for thousands more years." I wonder if CRISPR tech can solve this problem if it exists!