What do you believe?

Author: Discipulus_Didicit ,

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  • Discipulus_Didicit
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    Discipulus_Didicit
    What is one single thing which you believe? It can be political, philiosophical, religious, something I agree with you on, something I disagree with you on, etc. Anything at all. I have some questions for you.
  • TwoMan
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    --> @Discipulus_Didicit
    I believe that the universe exists.
  • Discipulus_Didicit
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    --> @TwoMan
    Straight to the good stuff, I like it.

    How sure are you that the universe exists?
  • TwoMan
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    I am 100% sure because nonexistence is impossible. I define the universe as "all that exists".
  • Discipulus_Didicit
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    --> @TwoMan
    I define the universe as "all that exists".

    Very well, this definition is fine with me.

    because nonexistence is impossible.

    And I see that you may have already answered my next question, I was going to ask "why do you believe the universe exists?"

    So you say that nonexistence is impossible. I won't claim to know whether this is the case, so let us accept for arguments sake that it is indeed true that nonexistence is impossible.

    Is the impossibility of nonexistence the reason you believe the universe exists, or is there some other reason?
  • TwoMan
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    --> @Discipulus_Didicit
    Is the impossibility of nonexistence the reason you believe the universe exists, or is there some other reason?
    I believe it because it is the only logical option.

    I'm afraid I've given you the one assertion that can't logically be challenged. I assume you are trying to get at the inescapable premise that one cannot be 100% certain of (almost) anything as everything we perceive could conceivably be an illusion. I can't argue against that other than to say that it really serves no purpose to live in such a state of solipsism.

    Speaking of solipsism, I can say with 100% certainty that I exist. I cannot supply proof of what "I" am so all I can say with certainty is that I exist as "something". The reason I believe I exist is because I am conscious, however you wish to define that word. Even if I were a computer program, I would still be something.
  • Swagnarok
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    The illusion of existence is still existence in the abstract, and thus immaterial existence. Even if immaterial, its practical effect is the same as that of material existence, so the distinction is meaningless. 
  • Discipulus_Didicit
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    I assume you are trying to get at the inescapable premise that one cannot be 100% certain of (almost) anything as everything we perceive could conceivably be an illusion.
    Given the way I worded my OP and the first question I asked this assumption is logical, though mostly incorrect. Personally I am 100% convinced that the universe 100% exists (at least, the way you defined it in post 4). There is no wrong answer nor am I trying to prove any point. I can explain in more depth later.

    However, back to where we were going before (if you are willing to continue, that is. If you instead become bored of this there is of course no need to continue.):

    I believe it because it is the only logical option.
    I would like to grant you for the sake of argument that in this reality (reality A) the only logical option is to accept the conclusion that the universe exists and therefore that 100% certainty n its existence is warranted.

    Is this impossibility of nonexistence actually the reason that you believe?

    Let us imagine a hypothetical reality B, in which you have all the same information available to you now and everything is the same except for one thing. The only difference is that in reality B it is possible that the universe exists and also possible that the universe does not exist. This may be logically contradictory, but I am accepting that reality B is only a hypothetical and does not actually exist, much less as the reality that we actually live in.

    My next question then would be this... What would happen in reality B? Would you cease to believe that the universe exists because there no longer is the 'impossibility of nonexistence' such as we have agreed there is in reality A? or would you still believe that the universe exists, perhaps saying something like "It is possible that the universe exists and possible that it does not, but I think it is more logical to say it does because____________." or something similar.
  • keithprosser
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    --> @TwoMan
    I believe that the universe exists.
    I define the universe as "all that exists".

    -.>  I believe all that exists exists.

    Unlike DD, I wouldn't quibble with that belief!






  • Discipulus_Didicit
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    Unlike DD, I wouldn't quibble with that belief!
    I plead guilty, I would indeed quibble with almost anything even if I do agree with it, such as I agree in the case of the universe existing.

    I don't think quibbling is what I am doing here though, as I accepted the conclusion as absolutely and undeniably true straight away. Depends what you mean by 'quibbling' I suppose.
  • TwoMan
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    --> @keithprosser
    -.>  I believe all that exists exists.
    Yes it is a tautology. It just doesn't sound like it when it is worded "the universe exists".

  • keithprosser
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    --> @Discipulus_Didicit
    I believe

    i have 10 toes
    paris is the capital of france.
    2+2=4
    creationism is nonsense.
    plus a million more.

    Why pick one?
  • philochristos
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    I believe that I have a cat named Aristotle.
  • Discipulus_Didicit
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    I believe

    i have 10 toes
    paris is the capital of france.
    2+2=4
    creationism is nonsense.
    plus a million more.

    Why pick one?
    It would be easier to do just one at a time, but any of those would work fine if you would like.
  • Discipulus_Didicit
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    --> @philochristos
    Would you like to use your cats name as a response to this OP?

    I am sure you can think of a more interesting topic.
  • philochristos
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    --> @Discipulus_Didicit
    You're welcome to use my cat's name. I don't have a copyright on it.
  • Discipulus_Didicit
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    --> @philochristos
    I prefer Socrates.
  • philochristos
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    --> @Discipulus_Didicit
    You can call your cat whatever you want.
  • disgusted
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    --> @Discipulus_Didicit
    Belief doesn't require surety, it doesn't even need reason belief just is.
  • Discipulus_Didicit
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    Belief doesn't require surety, it doesn't even need reason belief just is.

    Interesting perspective. Would you be willing to provide an example of a belief you hold and value that we could examine in order to explore this perspective?
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Discipulus_Didicit
    Interesting perspective. Would you be willing to provide an example of a belief you hold and value that we could examine in order to explore this perspective?

    OK, 'Paris is the capital of France'.

    A belief is a scrap of infomation sqirrelled away inside a brain - presumably it is a pattern of neuronal connections and activity.   If a suitable pattern of neurones is present in your brain then you will believe what it encodes, no matter how it got there.   For example if the pattern encoding 'paris is the capital of France' gets corrupted to encode 'paris is the capital of germany' then you will believe it just as much as you believed it before it was corrupted.
  • mustardness
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    --> @TwoMan
    I am 100% sure because nonexistence is impossible. I define the universe as "all that exists
    Here is specifics of all that exists aka The Cosmic Trinity and its subset of trinitys

    1} spirit-1{ spirit-of-intent } aka metaphysical-1 mind/intellect/concept with a resultant ego{ i },

    .....1a} absolute truth,

    .....1b} relative truth,

    .....1c} lies.

    ------------------line-of-demarcation---------------------------------------------

    2} metaphysical-2, macro-infinite, non-occupied SPACE, that, embraces/surrounds the following,
    ...2a} ?
    ...2b} ?
    ...2c} ?

    3} spirit-2,  as occupied SPACE Universe aka Uni-V-erse of observed Time aka reality/energy via fermions, bosons ---and possibly a new 3rd  hybrid catagory-- or any aggregate collection thereof ex atoms, molecules, planets, clusters of galaxies etc,

    .....3a} metaphysical-3 Gravity ( ) as positive shaped geodesic curvature of occupied Space,

    .....3b} metaphysical-4, Dark energy )( as negative shaped geodesic curvature of occupied Space.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    "U" niverse / "G" od is most inclusive set as it includes the Cosmic Trinity and all of its subsets.

    Universe aka Uni-V-erse #3 above is less inclusive and is not considerate of #1 and #2 above.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    meta is greek for beyond and there is four distinct kinds of meta-physical in the cosmic trinity hence the enumeration #1, 2, 3, 4.

    i = ego

    * i * = most complex bilateral consciousness

    (  )(  ) = vertical bisection/cross section of a torus, which torus has postive and negative geodesically curved space.

    ( (  ) )  = horizontal { birds-eye-view } bisection/cross section of a torus.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Observed Time aka reality is commonly associated with a sine-wave topology ex /\/\/\/\/\/ or as^v^v^v and defined by diametricallu opposed inversions { >< } from peaks of positive ( ) and negative )( geodesic curvature  of a torus (  )(  ) ergo the texticonic representation as (><)(><).

    Occupied space Universe / Uni-V-erse is composed of fermions  and bosons that are each defined by two or more tori interfering with each other. The sum-total of all interfering tori is occupied space Universe aka Uni-V-erse.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    All of the above coincide with my discovery of all prime numbers ---except 2 and 3--- falling on a single line/level within a sequential numerical set as it occurs of four lines/levels ergo a quasi-2D pattern that in-of-itself defines a sine-wave topology, before it is inside-outed.

    This latter above also translate to a 2D hexagonal pattern of 6 radii wherein all prime numbers ---except 2 and 3-- fall only two of the 6 radii.

    Regular numerical pattern
    0...............................................6............................................12.................................................18...........................
    ........1...............................5P.............7P..........................11P...........13...............................17P...........19P.....................
    ................2P...............4.............................8............10...............................14..............16.............................20..............
    ........................3P.............................................9.................................................15..............................................21.....

    Inside-outed irregular pattern
    ..........1......................................5P..............7P...............................11P..............13P....................................17P............................
    -
    -
    0...........................................................6....................................................12...............................................................................
    ...............................3P......................................................9..........................................................15............................................
    -
    -
    ....................2P...................4.....................................8.............10........................................14..............16...............................

    The resultant sine-wave topology occurs inside the toroidal tube as the triangularly structural and systemically stable integral  set of 0, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 etc






  • disgusted
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    --> @Discipulus_Didicit
    I can't supply any belief, I have, that conforms to the descriptions I gave.
  • Discipulus_Didicit
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    --> @keithprosser
    So why do you believe Paris is the capital of France? It isn't just because you can imagine it being true, since you can also imagine it being the capital of Germany (as you just did) so why is it?
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Discipulus_Didicit
    So why do you believe Paris is the capital of France?
    Because that is what is encoded in my brain.  I can't recall how/when it got encoded.

    It isn't just because you can imagine it being true, since you can also imagine it being the capital of Germany (as you just did) so why is it?
    my first thoughts are is that recalling something and imagining something are related mental opertions but they are not quite identical.  You may have thought about it more than me!