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@Fallaneze
most definitions of determinism are incompatible with free will. But it depends on which defintion of determinism and free will is being used.
Yes language is subjective. We are free to adjust our definitions if you like.
What do you believe?
Posts
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495
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@secularmerlin
You can once you eliminate the hidden variables. In quantum mechanics, it is not possible to eliminate the hidden variables because the physical system is indeterminate without observer participation.
I'm not arguing that free will hinges on indeterminism being true but you're arguing that no free will exist because determinism is true. So I see how indeterminism in quantum systems is problem for your viewpoint but not mine.
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@Fallaneze
you're arguing that no free will exist because determinism is true.
I do not believe that to be the case. My argument is that freewill cannot be demonstrated and that I do not accept it prima facie without some demonstration.
If determinism is true then I do believe it is incompatible with the idea of freewill but even if the universe is partly or wholey indeterministic freewill is not necessitated and so must still be somehow observed independently of the individual anecdotal experience.
How do we determine the difference between an event that is not determined by a preceding causal chain and one whose connection to a previous causal chain is not apparent to us?You can once you eliminate the hidden variables.
So until these hidden variables are eliminated this is all pure speculation on your part.
Mustardness actaully had a great explination in the post i wad replying to. I'd rather not discuss the science as my understanding is more philosophical. I understand that most physics belive that there arent enough electrons in existance for this to be possible. But of all the answers to why we exist, this makes the most logical sensesense to me.
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@secularmerlin
Hidden variables:
"Indeterminacy in measurement was not an innovation of quantum mechanics, since it had been established early on by experimentalists that errors in measurement may lead to indeterminate outcomes. However, by the later half of the eighteenth century, measurement errors were well understood and it was known that they could either be reduced by better equipment or accounted for by statistical error models. In quantum mechanics, however, indeterminacy is of a much more fundamental nature, having nothing to do with errors or disturbance."
Determinism hasn't been demonstrated to the cause of all human action either.
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@Fallaneze
Determinism hasn't been demonstrated to the cause of all human action
It has been shown to be the cause of some human action. I'm not sure how we would demonstrate that indeterminism acted as such a cause. So with one model proven to explain some human action and the other is just a placeholder for any behaviors we do not readily understand the reason for I don't understand your insistence that observable cause and effect is a less likely explanation .
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@secularmerlin
Deterministic processes do affect our environment but hasn't been determined to be the cause of any human behavior.
(1) human behavior is in direct contrast to how deterministic processes behave.
(2) quantum mechanics shows that reality is indeterminate unless observed. This, if true, proves that determinism is wrong.
(3) people prima facie have free will.
(4) determinism can't be a rationally held belief if it's in fact true. We would all be pawns of mindless forces, installing thoughts and behaviors into us as chemical reactions. Mindless forces that are doing all of the controlling are not rational and possess no understanding.
(5) if determinism is true, people have no moral culpability. Prima facie people have moral culpability.
(6) cause and effect are not violated if free will exist due to mental causation.
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@secularmerlin
@Fallaneze
Can't it be put more simply? What a leaf in the wind does next depends only on the wind, but what a person does next depends not only on physical conditions but on that person's desires.
That desires are the consequence of 'physical cause and effect' is not a disproof of freewill - it is a consequence of assuming monistic physicalism.
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@Fallaneze
You seem to want mental causal chains put in a different category from any other causal chains. I have no reason not to include mental causation under the umbrella of cause and effect. Even assuming it is somehow different thay does not give us licence to make assumptions about freewill.mental causation.
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@secularmerlin
Why assume that mental causation must have a preceding chain of causes? Do you have no response to (1) - (5)?
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@Fallaneze
I'm pretty sure we are getting no where. I'm pretty sure we've already been over all these points. I have enjoyed the conversation. Thank you. I'm sure we will have a virtually identical conversation again sometime in the future when the subject is raised again. We won't be able to help ourselves.
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@Fallaneze
Deterministic processes do affect our environment but hasn't been determined to be the cause of any human behavior.
The "enviroment" is a finite set of "determnistic processes". No environment then no human. No "determinsictic proceesses" then no human.
(1) human behavior is in direct contrast to how deterministic processes behave.
Humans access to metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts and ego, are direct synergetic resultant and the source of the illusion of free will, and at best limited free will. Free will illusion cannot violate the finite set of cosmic laws/principles.
(2) quantum mechanics shows that reality is indeterminate unless observed. This, if true, proves that determinism is wrong.
Uncertainty need not necessitate chaos of mind. Occupied space reality { physical/energy } aka Observed Time, is a resultant of underlying set of occupied space of metaphysical-3 ultra-micro gravity ( ) and metaphysical-4, dark energy )(.
(3) people prima facie have free will.
A very good illusion of finite free will is still an illusion and no differrent then a very good magican performing illusion of magic.
The true magic is that we have the mo-jo of mo-tion. We have top speed-of-motion and it remains a mystery as to how that speed appears as a contant irrespective of the observer.
(4) determinism can't be a rationally held belief if it's in fact true. We would all be pawns of mindless forces, installing thoughts and behaviors into us as chemical reactions. Mindless forces that are doing all of the controlling are not rational and possess no understanding.
Replace your use of the word "mindless" with integral forces having a magnitude and direction of vector.
That we cannot quantise or quantify the force does not make less the effects we observe.
Humans do not have any elemental force within them, that we can assoicate with limited free will, that is not any one or more of the elements we find elsewhere in Universe.
(5) if determinism is true, people have no moral culpability. Prima facie people have moral culpability.
Yes they do because humans have adopted morals into our life mechanics, irrespective of whether free will is a very good illusion.
(6) cause and effect are not violated if free will exist due to mental causation.
A very good illusion of limited free will, remains a very good illusion, irrespective of how many of the fermons and bosons we can quantise, quantify as a whholistic maping of all lines-of-relationship assocated directly or indirectly to every motivating choice { desire } or desire { emotion } that moves us.
Sitting at table, the brain processes { mo-tion } recalled { mo-tion } and event { mo-tion } and a critical amount of occupied space chemistry moved me to move { get out of the chair }.
Woman { Xx }//Attracter with seeming static egg X sitting around doing nothing. Just waiting for the egg X to fall { gravity? | through the fallopian tube into the uterus.
Man { Xy }//Pusher sends spermazoa on its pathway to the egg X.
The scene is set in motion ---it was never static to begin with--- as they come after all of the previous lines-of-relationship vectors//desires that led these two to this confluence of emotional resultants of a fertilized egg { * * } that has not yet adopted and ego. Or has it?
Children do not usually distingush between left and right untill their abaout 8 years old. When does the fetus identify with its ego?
Mo-mma's chemistry attracts Papa's chemistry. Love Motion//Potion #9
Egg chemistry attracts spermazoa chemistry. Love motion//potion of chemistry { charge }
RNA-DNA >< RNA-DNA combining and multiplying { motion } as a dynamic{ motion } cell and mo-cells.
More willd motions for 9 gestation months
Mo-mma's uterus muscles contract IN-ward and fetus//baby is pushed-OUT. SHazam!
Breath Baby Breath, clean out the airways and induce breathing with spank { motion } on the buttocks.
Wahh! Wahh! Give that baby some nipple { supple motion } and see if it will stop Wahhing.
So now baby knows enough Wahhing may have good tasting nourishment { milk }. Ego developes.
Cry suckle, cry suckle cry suckle Motion begats motion.
i desire > suckle > i desire > suckle > i desire > suckle baby ego { i } plus motion ego not skewed
i desire > Sex > i desire > Sex i desire > Sex > teens ego { i } plus motion with ego partially skewed
I desire to be God > I desire to be God > adult narrcist ego { I } plys motion with ego greatly skewed
Death aka terminal ending of biological life, and end of local-case//special-case ego
Mo-tion begats mo-tion.
Mo-jo { charm } begats mo mo-jo { charm }
Mo-mma begats mo mo-mma's.
Energy{ motion } attracts { pulls-toward } motion
What goes out must always be attracted back in ergo finite integrity.
Man pushes the limits, cosmic laws//principles remind him there exist limits.
Woman, at optimum, operates at 90 degrees --laterally-- to man and looks to circumvent the push through approach with go around or take another tack { trajectory }, with results that are satisfactory with out all of the crash boom drama.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
SINGLE THING ? .....that humans are PARASITES of the PHYSICAL EARTH and of all other life forms that inhabit it....
............sadly this is not a BELIEF it is an IRREFUTABLE FACT......
i desire > suckle > i desire > suckle > i desire > suckle baby ego { i } plus motion ego not skewed
..........undeveloped ergo least complex ego....
i know this or that age 10 onward with ego conceding much is not known beginning around age 25
..more developed ego that knows left from right around age 8.....
i desire > Sex > i desire > Sex i desire > Sex > teens ego { i } plus motion with ego partially skewed
....ego and brain skewed by hormones aka puberty till around 25 when brain has finished development ....
I is mature adult
I desire to be God > I desire to be God > adult narcissist ego { I } plus motion with ego greatly skewed
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Death aka terminal ending of biological life, and end of local-case//special-case ego