What do you believe?

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@secularmerlin

Beliefs are a direct result of our observations colored by our personal bias. Since we neither choose what exists to be observed nor the bias we accrue during our formative years our beliefs are the direct result of factors beyond our control.

Are these the only factors you can think of that influence what a persons beliefs are?

#92

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02.22.2019 06:11PM

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@Discipulus_Didicit

I'm sure whether I can think of any one could argue that others exist. However since we know of at least enough factors not under our control exist to form beliefs the bop would still be on the one claiming some factor would result in choosing one's beliefs rather than coming to one's beliefs as a product of one's circumstance.

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#93

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02.22.2019 06:32PM

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@secularmerlin

I'm sure whether I can think of any one could argue that others exist.

The only one I am asking is you.

#94

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02.22.2019 06:34PM

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@Discipulus_Didicit

Perhaps there are other factors but these are the primary contributors and any other factor would perforce be affected by these two.

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#95

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02.22.2019 10:35PM

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@secularmerlin

And what is something which you could hypothetically learn or experience that might cause you to be less sure that your proposition is correct?

#96

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02.22.2019 10:42PM

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@Discipulus_Didicit

I am uncertain what form such evidence would take. It especially complicates the problem that I almost certainly would have experienced/observed this evidence through exactly the kind of circumstance that has already informed my belief that circumstances form beliefs.

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#97

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02.22.2019 10:49PM

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@secularmerlin

I am not asking whether you have encountered such a piece of evidence (obviously you haven't else you would not hold this opinion)... I am asking whether you can imagine one. Falsifiability is the word they call this concept.

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02.22.2019 10:57PM

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@Discipulus_Didicit

That freewill cannot be falsified is one reason I do not believe in it. For the same reason, amongst others, I do not believe in unicorns, chupakabras, sasquatches or god(s).

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#99

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02.22.2019 11:00PM

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@secularmerlin

I am not disputing with you whether or not free will exists. You don't even know whether or not I even disagree with you on the subject.

My question was referring to the falsifiability of the belief you chose to talk about, which is the belief that it probably does not exist. I was not asking about the falsifiability of the opposite of your belief.

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02.22.2019 11:08PM

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@Discipulus_Didicit

My lack of belief is based on the lack of evidence. The universe gets on just fine without freewill. Occam's razor demands that if we already have an observable explanation for an event (say cause and effect) that we dismiss any extraneous and unprovable explanation (such as freewill). If freewill does not exist then we would expect to see no evidence whatever and that is precisely what we see.

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#101

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02.22.2019 11:11PM

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02.22.2019 11:11PM

My lack of belief is based on the lack of evidence.

Well it isn't just based on that though. The stuff you talked about in post 90 factors in too doesn't it?

#102

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02.22.2019 11:18PM

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@Discipulus_Didicit

I have direct observable evidence of cause and effect. Cause and effect is not in dispute. If freewill exists it exists alongside cause and effect. I have no evidence that freewill exists or that a universe built on cause and effect would necessitate freewill. The effect (our beliefs) arise from the cause (our observations colored by our personal bias).

#103

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02.22.2019 11:24PM

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@Discipulus_Didicit

I must apologize. You wanted to talk about what I believe and we ended up talking about what I do not believe instead.

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#104

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02.22.2019 11:27PM

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@secularmerlin

You already answered the question of why you believe free will probably does not exist... several times... there is no need to keep answering the same question repeatedly since I only asked it once.

I am starting to get the impression that you would preffer to have a debate on the topic. That's fine, this is a debate site after all, I just wasn't looking for a debate on the topic myself (which is one reason I never said or implied that I think you are correct or incorrect)

#105

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02.22.2019 11:30PM

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@Discipulus_Didicit

Yes I have told you why I do not believe in free will. You seemed unsatisfied with my answer. Was I mistaken in that regard?

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#106

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02.22.2019 11:39PM

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@secularmerlin

I only asked the question "Why do you not believe in free will?" one time, and I immediately accepted your answer in the sense that I did not dispute its soundness or state disagreement with the conclusion.

My next question was whether you could think of anything that could hypothetically happen or piece of information you could hypothetically learn that would make you less sure that said conclusion was accurate.

#107

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02.22.2019 11:43PM

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@Discipulus_Didicit

Ah I see our miscommunication then. I am not sure I simply have no reason to believe. I am unable to imagine any event or information that would make me more sure in either direction however if that satisfies the question.

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#108

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02.23.2019 12:00AM

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@secularmerlin

That does answer the question, certainly. It seems that essentially you are saying that your reasoning which you use to conclude that free will does not exist is guided by examining the evidence avaliable to you and forming conclusions based on that.

#109

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02.23.2019 12:29AM

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@Discipulus_Didicit

I believe all forms of suffering shoupd be abolished, as well as death and any form of injustice.

#110

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02.23.2019 12:29AM

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Wylted

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#111

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02.23.2019 12:40AM

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@Wylted

I believe all forms of suffering should be abolished

I hope Victoria isn't into BDSM.

#112

Reece

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Reece

02.23.2019 04:04AM

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@mustardness

How about multi-dimensional-coin. Is that better?

#113

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02.23.2019 07:41AM

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@Discipulus_Didicit

She actually is and I enjoy it. I might have to rethink this stance.

Wylted

#114

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02.23.2019 02:22PM

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@Discipulus_Didicit

That does answer the question, certainly. It seems that essentially you are saying that your reasoning which you use to conclude that free will does not exist is guided by examining the evidence avaliable to you and forming conclusions based on that.

Yes.

#115

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02.23.2019 03:09PM

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@secularmerlin

That does answer the question, certainly. It seems that essentially you are saying that your reasoning which you use to conclude that free will does not exist is guided by examining the evidence avaliable to you and forming conclusions based on that.

Yes

I think that may be wrong! At every waking moment you have the experience of making choices - your raw experience indicates free will exists.

You reject free will because you cannot frame a theoretical mechanism by which free will could work. If you hadn't thought much about it, and based your beliefs on your empirical experience you would have no doubt at all that free will existed.

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02.23.2019 03:24PM

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@keithprosser

Hey man.

Saccadic suppression. You know the reason why you cant see you eyes move in the mirror.

What do you think about it ?

#117

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02.23.2019 03:36PM

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@Deb-8-a-bull

I think its yet another example of how bad our intuitions are about how our brains work. in fact we don't even have an intuition it is our brains doing the work of thinking and feeling - we have learn tht. The ancients believed we thought with our hearts or liver!

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#118

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02.23.2019 04:31PM

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@secularmerlin

Yes.

This process of examining the evidence avaliable to you and forming conclusions based on that is in general a reliable method for determining what is true and what is not?

#119

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02.23.2019 09:18PM

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@Discipulus_Didicit

Let me test if SM is right.

I have two heads.

My guess is you thought that was a lie; straight way you felt it wasn't true. But how did you decide it wasn't true? Did you examine the evidence and determine it wasn't true? If so, can you outline the algorithm you employed?

I can guess that the agorithm relies on fitting new information into an existing schema. In your brain's schema people have one head - so somehow you retrieved that piece of information (ignoring millions of irrelvant pieces of information such what is the capital of paris), detected an anomaly and rejected the new information that I have two heads.

That is very reasonable sounding, but I have no idea it is really how brains work!

It is almost (but not quite) a pardox that brains have no idea how they work.

#120

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