Who was the Serpent in the Garden?

Author: Castin

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Castin
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@rosends
Here's a thought -- the snake is the externalized concept of temptation and the story introduces the idea that man, in his rawest form truly was a tabula rasa and had no particular inclination to break rules -- that this urge had to be introduced from the outside. This absolves man on some level because it lays the blame on some outside agent, at least initially. Then, the urge becomes internalized through the eating so subsequent people have this same desire built in. The moral of the story is "recognize that you now have this wish to break rules, but look at the consequences last time..."

Or, maybe the story is saying that man cannot exist in his pristine state and will, inevitably, fall victim to any environmental temptation. The snake then represents a very natural source for desire, earthly, not divine.
Interesting. I've always seen this story as an attempt to shift blame away from God and onto us, but you're right -- it also tries to shift blame away from us and onto the "outside agent" of the snake. At least, partial blame.

Where does the chain of blame end? What is the source?

It's not God's fault, it's man's fault.
It's not man's fault, it's Eve's fault.
It's not Eve's fault, it's the Serpent's fault.

It's like we had such a hard time explaining where Badness comes from that we set up this chain of regression that ended up at "There was this snake and he was just bad. He was bad from the beginning."
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@Castin
Interesting. I've always seen this story as an attempt to shift blame away from God and onto us, but you're right -- it also tries to shift blame away from us and onto the "outside agent" of the snake. At least, partial blame.
I don't see the story about evil as such; it's about why life sucks - ie why we have to work and why child-bearing hurts.  The writers weren't concerned with abstracts like good and evil so as much as practical matters of obedience and disobedience.   

The idea that God had all these infinite and omni- powers and was 'perfect' came later.  Gods were powerful, but not unlimited.  If you flattered and obeyed your god he looked after your your tribe, if you didn't you'd be punished with such things as famine or defeat in war.  It was a simple arrangement with no need for complex moral theory!

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@Castin
Okay... and so did the ancient writings of Ra, Olypmus, etc. Primitive brains are easily manipulated, and quick to assign blame to things equally as unexplained as that for which the blame is assigned. To take any sort of truthful belief from the ramblings of a delusional mind is to divorce oneself from reality. It's nothing more than an interesting piece of fiction people buy into for one singular reason: Fear.
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@BrutalTruth
It's nothing more than an interesting piece of fiction people buy into for one singular reason: Fear.
You think theists are scared of dieing.

Many theists think atheists want to sin without consequences.

I think things are a lot more complicated than that.



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@Castin
Thanks for answering.

You're welcome.

That's not a bad takeaway. Do you mean the snake was supposed to represent sexual temptation only?

No ma'am, temptation as a whole. Sexual temptation is only one aspect. Being tempted with anything that would go against your desire to do good or honor God. I would argue that before mankind does anything evil or stupid he was first tempted....meaning thought about it, pondered it, calculated ect ect. The serpent represents the "whispers" in our minds and thoughts before we make decisions. 

So you don't think the Serpent was the devil at all? Actually, do you even believe in the devil? I can't remember you ever saying.

Certainly there are malevolent entities that exist, this is creation and duality exists to both extremes meaning all beings and spiritual beings can act to any degree of good or evil. But, I can't say there is a "devil" as in the one depicted in the Bible. Here's what I know, every time the devil is mentioned it symbolizes the negative forces or something opposed to the Divine and so I keep things simple. To me the "devil" just represents the negative aspects or the negative forces in creation and we should be wise to those things and keep strong. They are one and the same meaning. 


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@Castin
Interesting. I've always seen this story as an attempt to shift blame away from God and onto us, but you're right -- it also tries to shift blame away from us and onto the "outside agent" of the snake. At least, partial blame.

Where does the chain of blame end? What is the source?

It's not God's fault, it's man's fault.
It's not man's fault, it's Eve's fault.
It's not Eve's fault, it's the Serpent's fault.

You're not conceptualizing this enough, you're still trying to literalize it. Remember what I said about Adam and Eve representing mankind as a whole. The story is not saying to shift the blame, it's showing you the nature of man, and how MAN shifts blame....this is what we do to avoid accepting accountability. 

It's like we had such a hard time explaining where Badness comes from that we set up this chain of regression that ended up at "There was this snake and he was just bad. He was bad from the beginning."

I think you're missing the point, try reading the account as if it's showing you how humans like to do things in their weakened or tempted states rather than a lesson teaching you where something originated. The story is revealing how we do things. Get the talking snake out of your head and replace it with how man is tempted. 
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@EtrnlVw
You're not conceptualizing this enough
No!  You are over conceptualising it. 

It was not an age of sophisticated literary criticism.  But perhaps they, like us, couldn't resist wondering about the world and the lights in the sky.  If an ordinary Hebrew was to ask about such things their priests had to have an answer.  Their power and status depended on their claim of such knowledge.

If people in the C21st can take Genesis literally we can be sure people 3000 years ago did.   A tale of gods and magic would not seem fantastic or unlikely then;  it would not be offered or received as an allegory or metaphor but as unvarnished truth.  
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@keithprosser
I said fear. Not what the fear is of. Nearly all theistic religion plays on fear. It always has, since way before Christianity existed.
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@BrutalTruth
I apologise.

But a lot of atheists do cite fear of death as the motivation for theism, just as a lot of theist think atheists are motivated by hedonism.

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@keithprosser
That's because atheists are generally reasonable(hence us questioning the actual validity of fairy tales before just believing them). It is a reasonable argument that theists don't question their beliefs because of fear of consequence. Nearly all of them were raised to fear their gods, and taught never to question them.
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@Castin
The BIBLE is a horrifically OBSOLETE Comic book series....a compilation of stunningly IDIOTIC fairy tales like the GRIMM stories....

The POINT is that NO HUMAN EVER needs to be validated and approved to EXIST and DIE over some RETARDED COMIC BOOK 
farce....

Just imagine a remote desert with wandering TRIBAL LUNATICS all killing each other off for power and control...they had virtually 
NOTHING...and 2000 years later in the here and NOW humans are still arguing-fighting-murdering over these RETARDED Comic
Book fabrications....WAKE UP FOOLS....get rid of the Middle East JEW-JESUS-ALLAH God trash..
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Can someone ban that dude? He's on some drugs or something. Reading his posts gives me a headache.
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@Castin
If Christianity is true, i'm 100% confident that i'm Lucifer.
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I don't see the story about evil as such; it's about why life sucks - ie why we have to work and why child-bearing hurts.  The writers weren't concerned with abstracts like good and evil so as much as practical matters of obedience and disobedience.   

The idea that God had all these infinite and omni- powers and was 'perfect' came later.  Gods were powerful, but not unlimited.  If you flattered and obeyed your god he looked after your your tribe, if you didn't you'd be punished with such things as famine or defeat in war.  It was a simple arrangement with no need for complex moral theory!
You can't say a story isn't about good and bad if the point is to address "If God good, why life bad?"

I am in agreement with your second paragraph.

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@BrutalTruth
Can someone ban that dude? He's on some drugs or something. Reading his posts gives me a headache.
People only report posts they read, so no one has ever reported him.

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@Castin
You can't say a story isn't about good and bad if the point is to address "If God good, why life bad?"
I can!

Different senses of good and bad are involved.  'If god morally good, why life terrible?'

'A bad apple' uses bad in two ways depending on whether it is literally a piece of decaying fruit or metaphorically an immoral individual.

i meant the story isn't primarily about morality but is about the daily grind.   The only moral lesson is 'obey or else'.


 
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@Outplayz
If Christianity is true, i'm 100% confident that i'm Lucifer.
Do you have a vague memory of hanging out in a garden in snake form, feeling really bitchy? Maybe we can finally get some answers here.

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@keithprosser
It was not an age of sophisticated literary criticism.  But perhaps they, like us, couldn't resist wondering about the world and the lights in the sky.  If an ordinary Hebrew was to ask about such things their priests had to have an answer.  Their power and status depended on their claim of such knowledge.

If people in the C21st can take Genesis literally we can be sure people 3000 years ago did.   A tale of gods and magic would not seem fantastic or unlikely then;  it would not be offered or received as an allegory or metaphor but as unvarnished truth.  
I must agree. Save the last bit. I can't make a claim of knowledge as to how the story was understood by Hebrews at the time.

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@Castin
True, I can't be certain.  But I think the priests would encourage the plebs to think they held the keys to knowledge and weren't just making stuff up. Their power depended on being believed.  I think any skeptical Hebrew would have kept his doubts to himself.   Doubt would be unpatriotic as well as blaspheous and could prove fatal.
 
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God was having her fun with eve. Adam never actually existed. Adam is a metaphor.
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Amazing seriously, simplicity just goes right over the head. Not sure why people here even ask questions. 
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The "SNAKE" is another character in the Circus of IDIOTIC tribal GOD inventions....

Go back in time to the era of these wandering imbeciles....they had NOTHING...

Unlike the Sumerian and Egyptian...Roman...Greek ...these tribal lunatics built NOTHING
STOLE EVERYTHING.....like the stories they twisted out of other stories of surrounding
cultures...

....The Middle East GOD fabrications are just that....a consolidation of all the other GODS
and playbooks into their own idiotic version...

These Parasite VAMPIRE tribes wanted an IDENTITY....a GOD was the path to building 
a culture around it....not for the GOD but for the PSYCHOPATH mind and life molesters
who wanted power and control...they are copy cats of the more advanced civilizations

The JEWS were clever about going MONOTHEIST....others followed..they all wanted POWER

GODS are human fabricated scapegoat strategies...HYPNOSIS and BRAINWASHING 
along with doses of suffering punishment torture beatings stoning hanging +++ allowed 
for the FEAR-INTIMIDATION-VIOLENCE model for control to manifest...

GOD is a piece of garbage...they come and go like the idiots that invented them...

Go back 8000 years...none of this JEW-JESUS-ALLAH GOD garbage hoax existed
it's all BULL SHIT by clever CON ARTISTS...

They follow the ROMAN model....from Empire with armies to Empire with some retarded GOD
hoax as an excuse to threaten the masses of asses into complicity....very clever !

Trick or Treat ?    TRICK of course FOOL...the Middle East GODS are the greatest HOAX
of humanity !   everyone DIES !   and the few who claim idiot titles live well off their 
brainwashed sheeple drone slaves...and laugh at their utter stupidity for falling into the
CULT maze....
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@Castin
Not particularly... but i wouldn't put it past me to do... especially talking the girl into it and trying to steal her from Adam. Yeah, i'm one of those assholes. 
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@Castin
Bucky Fuller sea-peoples story goes this way.

Adam is on south pacific  beach and sees a beached whale and how the bone structure is ribbed and keeled{ spine of whale } - many wooden ships were built with riibbed and keeled method-- so Adam takes of one of his ribs to build the ribbed and keeled ship he names  Eve --again for much of history ships boats given a female name---.

Then Adam, sails around the world, which he discover is a round{ spherical ] as an apple, orange, coccunut etc, in the womb{ belly } of the ribbed and keeled ship of Eve.

Along the way the way Adam sees sea-serpents{ naga }  that have an appearence of a sine-wave /\/\/\/\ pattern ---see LINK-

---end Fullers scenario begin Mustard's---

Half of sine-wave sea serpent was below the water line{ invisible under-world } and half above{ visible over-world }. ---see LINK---- on how to construct simple sine-wave from a rolled tube that creates two halves of exists and exhibits two halves of existence.

The tube-of-life is the birth canal. The tube cut at 45 degrees{ diagonal / of cube [ / ] } is the division of 90 degrees into two halves ergo multi-dimensional{ invisible 45 degree hyper-diemension } and our visible 90 degree cartesain{ XYZ } cube{ [  ] }.

Naga{ as a snake } had come onto land climbed trees and led to Adams existence as a fruit ---more likely a fungus---   that fell from the tree onto the Earth and multiply.

Adam the fruit, eats the fungus{ mushroom } and over many eating arrives at two conclusions regarding the mushroom;

1} lead to divine heavenly cosmic consciousness, oness with Naga > Na-ture > Na-da{ cosmic zero or pure-ness }

2} leads to insane hell coming from inside the Earth







44 days later

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@rosends
Here's a thought -- the snake is the externalized concept of temptation and the story introduces the idea that man, in his rawest form truly was a tabula rasa and had no particular inclination to break rules -- that this urge had to be introduced from the outside. This absolves man on some level because it lays the blame on some outside agent, at least initially. Then, the urge becomes internalized through the eating so subsequent people have this same desire built in. The moral of the story is "recognize that you now have this wish to break rules, but look at the consequences last time..."

Or, maybe the story is saying that man cannot exist in his pristine state and will, inevitably, fall victim to any environmental temptation. The snake then represents a very natural source for desire, earthly, not divine.

The scriptures give us a better idea of the serpent.

1. It was called a serpent by Adam. Adam was asked to name all the creatures he saw. So it does not necessarily mean it was a real serpent. It's simply what Adam called it. Not being an expert some laxity should be shown here.

2. It was very smart and crafty. It even outsmarted God. That eliminates a fictional concept or desire. it was a worthy opponent/adversary.

3. God could not read the serpents intentions. So obviously it was not human or God would have easily read it's mind.

4.The serpent knew why God did not want Eve to eat the fruit. So it had to be one of God's angels with whom God had discussed his creation.

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness, to rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, and over all the earth itself and ...

The fact the serpent fooled God should not be the rational behind why it couldn't  fool the Jews.The concept of Satan was not as dominant with  Jews because that would have made their God look dumb.

Christians  don't have  a problem with  a dumb God. They even accept his even dumber son Jesus who was crucified by the Romans.

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@Castin
The people who handed this down did not necessarily convey it in the sense of having a wholistic understanding at the time.   The serpent is implicated not only in the fall, but also in things to come.  

4 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
    and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
    and you will eat dust
    all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
    between you and the woman,
    and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
    and you will strike his heel.”

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@Snoopy
Who recorded that?

11 days later

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@Castin
.......New WORLD News.........every since the elimination of the Abrahamic GODS to Comic Book Mythology in 2022 the Middle East has had 
an unprecedented surge in new infrastructure and cooperation among the up and coming generations....never before has there been such
unity and harmony among the people of this region where some of earliest and advanced cultures flourished 6 - 8 thousand years ago...

More excitement is building as researchers are discovering more and more amazing artifacts and information on these amazing ancient 
civilizations...

As the older generations DIE off and take their horrifically OBSOLETE and OPPRESSIVE Comic Book GODS and DOGMA
to the grave with them... a revitalization of the region has occurred in place of the CONFLICT - FEAR - VIOLENCE....which
dominated the region for 5000 years...

These are truly EPIC TIMES as all of HUMANITY has trashed the Abrahamic GOD construct for POWER and CONTROL of the MINDS 
and LIVES of BILLIONS....now that humanity is FREE from the parasite VAMPIRE bondage founded by the defunct Roman Catholic Church
and the MUSLIM Allah God garbage....it's like a perpetual spring time all over the planet...

Live WELL - LONG and PROSPER is the new MANTRA of humanity....a true breath of fresh air now that the HELL on EARTH Abrahamic
JEW - JESUS - ALLAH GOD are meaningless Mythology and Comic Books for entertainment only...

Castin
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@WisdomofAges
Are you physically capable of making a post with no caps?

Indulge my curiosity.

7 days later

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@Castin
Obviously the real SERPENT was between ADAM's legs...but EVE was not impressed...so she wanted some REAL EXCITEMENT and the tree
SNAKE offered it !   

That's RIGHT Jew- Jesus - Allah God vomiting PSYCHOPATH VAMPIRES...this lady was CURIOUS !   not one to fall on the floor and shake 
like an IMBECILE the beg like a dog for forgiveness and salvation from some PSYCHOTIC GOD hoax....a GOD that had no PROBLEM 
ordering the DEATH and DESTRUCTION of his own disaster of a human creation...for BEING CURIOUS !   

OK..GOD ?   Eve thought...just be this like DUMB ASSXX BITCH for ADAMS WHIMS ?   like run around the garden naked and wait for this
IMPOTENT fool to jump me..especially when i am not looking ???  NO WAY !   

NO...i want FREEDOM !   GOD PRICK...like to be curious...explore and discover...frolic on some beach and swim with the Dolphins...HELL YES !
i'm not here to be some BREEDING FLESH BAG for this JERK ADAM....i want to sample different guys !   why not ?  be stuck with this FOOL
for eternity ?.....hey GOD...you can take ADAM and shove him up your ARSE !   i'm going to chill with this very COOL SNAKE and SWEET APPLE !

and she DID !    Congrats EVE..the FIRST TRULY INDEPENDENT WOMAN !