unlimited paradox: can an unlimited entity, limit itself?

Author: linate

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@secularmerlin
Surely your master is reality. You can't overthrow reality, no matter how delusional you are.

Whether reality is sentient or not, God is what God is. You could argue that natural law is an expression of sentience. Some people don't believe God is sentient. 

I peraonally don't see how it matters, because sentient or not we have a relationship with God.




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@Mopac
Can you have a relationship with a rock?
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@secularmerlin
People have pet rocks. Some people collect rocks. Some people even make statues out of rocks. Some people come from every corner of the globe just to kiss a rock.

Sure, you can have a relationship with a rock. We might even be living on a giant rock hurtling through space right now.
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@Mopac
Okay then suppose you can have a relationship with reality too but whether we are talking about a rock or reality it would appear to be a pretty one sided relationship.

After all rocks do not have pet people or collect people or care about people. In fact a rock would not seem capable of any of those things and neither does reality.
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@secularmerlin
If you love reality, it will make you a saner person. It will make you a more rational person. It will make you a more stable person. It will benefit you in every way.

If you love a rock, you're going to have pretty much the opposite effect.


It's literally the difference between worshipping God and worshipping idols. 



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@Mopac
If you love reality, it will make you a saner person. It will make you a more rational person. It will make you a more stable person. It will benefit you in every way.
How have you determined that this is the case?

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@secularmerlin
I would hope that the contrast between loving reality and embracing delusion is obvious.
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@Mopac
I don't know what you mean by loving reality. Accepting reality should be sufficient if we can even tell the difference between reality and delusion, which I understand can be a real problem for the delusional.
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@secularmerlin
Yet even accepting reality is clearly better than embracing delusion.

People who love The Truth with sincerity tend to work their way through their delusions. People who embrace delusion tend to decend deeper and deeper into their own hell. It is a curse.



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@Mopac
Even if you are correct, and I'm not arguing with that at this time, this statement is practically useless without a way of determining truth from delusion and we agree that truth is unknowable.

That said and with the understanding that we cannot know the truth how have you determined that truth is beneficial? Indeed how would you know that what was benefiting you was the truth?
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@secularmerlin
All you can really do is be sincere and honest about the things that are keeping you from being sincere and honest.
Love of The Truth gives us inner peace. Love of The Truth gives us scientific advancement. Love of The Truth is beneficial in every way.

Reality is superior to unreality. Truth is good, falsehood is evil. We all fall short, but if we were to dwell on our shortcomings, we'd be crippled. The truth is that this is what we work with, so we have to make peace with it and work with what we got.



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@Mopac
You are making claims about an unknowable thing. How can you know truth from falsehood if truth is unknowable and if you can't tell the difference between truth and falsehood if you cannot know the truth?
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@secularmerlin
We do have a knowledge of good and evil, truth and falsehood. What we really lack is perspective. Acknowledging the limits of our perspective is loving The Truth.

If the choice is between truth and falsehood, choose truth.

If the choice is between holding on to things that keep us from being honest toward truth, and letting those things go, let go.

Be slow to judge. It is better to say to yourself, "I don't know" sometimes. Knowing everything is not necessary, nor possible.



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@Mopac
Good and evil are subjective values. Few societies, or even individuals agree on exactly what qualifies.

Also this more or less fails to address my question so allow me to restate it.

If the truth is unknowable how do you tell the truth from falsehood and if you cannot tell them apart how do you gauge which is more beneficial?

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@secularmerlin
Take the greatest good as being Truth. Take the greatest evil as being false.

You already know how to tell truth from falsehood, and the proof of this is that you are able to use language. You are clearly able to formulate thoughts and ideas.

Talk to me in gibberish, and see how beneficial it is.


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@Mopac
So that's a hard no on answering my question? Also backpedaling on your claim that truth is unknowable into  claiming that I know truth from falsehood when I have clearly stated that this is beyond my epistemological limits to say with certainty?
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@Mopac
I'm afraid you can't have it both ways.
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@secularmerlin
You can be 100% certain that God exists. Everything else you can be so sure.

I am not backpedaling at all. We all have knowledge of good and evil, it is perspective we lack. God cannot be completely known, because to completely know God would be to completely know everything. Only God knows the thoughts of God.

You can certainly have knowledge about things. You clearly know English at least well enough to hold a conversation, and it would be silly to deny this.

The point isn't being 100% certain about stuff. You don't revert into a solipsistic black hole because you can only be 98% sure of anything. That is like treating dandruff by decapitation.

The point is that you want to be more honest, more sincere, and strive for reality. It is silly to even dispute that this isn't beneficial. But truly, it is best to love The Truth for the sake of it in itself than to do it for some type of gain. Gain is not godliness, and in fact, this in itself is an idol before God. To take gain as a reason to love The Truth actually gets in the way of loving The Truth.


In fact, some of the most brilliant people love The Truth as it relates to their gain. This is wickedness though, and a corrupted form of Truth worship.




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@Mopac
I have no reason to believe that reality knows things or has thoughts. Would you care to demonstrate that or would you like to ammend your statement?

I have no reason to believe that good and evil are objective rather than opinion based. Would you like to demonstrate that or would you like to ammend your statement?

I am a soft solipsist by the way. What we are experiencing may not be real. It is convenient to accept my senses as a reflection of reality but I'm not sure how you could assign a percentage to how certain about it I can be.

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@secularmerlin
Well, see, as long as you are in your epistemological black hole, you aren't going to accept anything I say, so we can really go on forever. You know it takes as much thought to immediately dismiss something as it does to immediately believe something. None. Yet what are you arguing against? All I'm saying is to Love The Truth. My religion is Truth Worship. Do you want me to do all the thinking for you? I can't do this. Practice of religion is inherently subjective.

See, you want me to assign probabilities to things. Probabilities are an absurdity. How do you come up with probabilities? It has been scientifically proven that it is impossible to isolate all variables, which is why we have probabilities to begin with. Probabilities themselves are based off of fuzzy premises, because we don't know. It would be meaningless to think in terms of probabilities.

You want knowledge, and there is a limit to knowledge, as you no doubt understand. Uncertainty can cripple you, especially if you want to do what is right. I'd say live life, and stay honest. It isn't important that everything makes sense or fits in a box. Be sincere. Be honest. Show charity to others. Love The Truth above all things.




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@Mopac
Sorry but it's our epistemological black hole. We live in there together and niether of us can be certain if anything except tautalogical truths such a whatever exists is real. As for assigning probability to how certain we can be I agree that we cannot accurately make a statement about that and yet you did make precisely such a statement.
you can only be 98% sure of anything.
Remember?

How did you arrive at this figure?

Also you have yet to conclusively address if you believe reality has thought, desires, goals or emotions nor have you addressed why you might believe such a thing if in fact you do.
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@secularmerlin
You ever hear the saying, 90% of all statistics are made up?
I don't need to address these things, because you have too narrow of an understanding of these concepts to really understand my answer to begin with.You want a God made in your own image, when really it is us who are made in the image of God.


You ever hear the saying that man is a microcosm of the universe?



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@Mopac
If the problem is that I don't understand perhaps you could be clearer. I find that if I rephrase a statement or question it sometimes clears up such issues.
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@secularmerlin
There isn't anything to understand. Your questions are absurd and possibly non sequiturs. 

Why would you ask me if reality has emotion? What does that even mean? The question doesn't even make sense to me. What about reality makes you think of emotion?


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@Mopac
If you don't believe that reality has emotions say you do not believe it plainly and we'll move on to the next attribute. Once we establish what you believe we can talk about why. The remaining three are thoughts, goals and desires.

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@secularmerlin
I already gave my answer to the question posed in the OP. 


It's fundamentally a question that stems from a misunderstanding of what omnipotence means.

Your questions will never end, and they are truly mindless questions. Questions that are irrelevant to this topic as well. My beliefs are not what this topic is about.


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@Mopac
Sorry I do tend to get sidetracked and I do have endless questions. If it makes you feel better I try to consider my questions carefully before printing them and I certainly don't expect them all to be answered. In fact I find that almost any line of questioning that is followed back far enough ends with an "I don't know".
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@secularmerlin
You have hit the brick wall with God. It is stupidnto question whether The Ultimate Reality exists.

In fact, you can be more certain that this exists than even the existence of yourself. To deny God is not reasonable. Being uncertain about the existence of God is unreasonable. 

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@Mopac
Unless we literally cannot know what exists which is the case. We can only kniw what is observable and testable and I admit that this leaves a lot we cannot know and that even that does not provide certainty. Thus far you have not convinced me that it is a desire to be reasonable that leads you to refer to reality as God. Arguably it would seem to be the opposite.
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@secularmerlin
Not just reality, The Ultimate Reality.


The fact that you have an experience at all shows that there is some form of existence. There is some form of reality. It can plainly be observed by everyone through experience that there are things that are not real or illusory. The Ultimate Reality is reality in the truest sense. Reality with no illusion or unreality. 


Do you see why this distinction of "Ultimate" Reality is important?

You don't see The Ultimate Reality as being God, but this clearly has a greater influence over your life than anything else. There is no reality without God.