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Author: Discipulus_Didicit

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Mopac
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Most of your family is Orthodox? Thats great. Well, I would encourage you to go on your own accord. As I said, we really respect free will. Of course, if you don't want to, then hey, I won't bug you about it. At least you know some people who go there already.


Mopac
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@Discipulus_Didicit
If you knew me, you would not say I was an us vs them type of person! 


But its ok, I am not claiming to be perfect anyway.
keithprosser
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@Mopac
Socialism is fundamentally an exploitation of people's envy and greed to destroy their own societies and consolidate 99% of the wealth, power  and resources of a country into the hands of the 1%. Yes, the very thing socialists think they are fighting for is what it is they are going to bring about!
Well according to wikipedia,


"U.S. income inequality has grown significantly since the early 1970s,[15][16][17][18][19][20] after several decades of stability,[21][22][23] and has been the subject of study of many scholars and institutions. The U.S. consistently exhibits higher rates of income inequality than most developed nations due to the nation's enhanced support of free market capitalism and less progressive spending on social services.[24][25][26][27][28]"
Inequality of wealth is precisely what socialism was intended to counter.  A properly functioning socialist state would take steps to actively redistribute any gross inequalities that arose.  As you indirectly imply, the problem for socialist states is how to avoid turning into plutocratic dictatorships - the very opposite of the socialist ideal.   One school of thought is that while the revolutionary route to socialism fails, an evolutionary route can succeed.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society
 
Outplayz
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@Discipulus_Didicit
How are you certain that no gods exist? 

Do you believe this is the only reality? Basically, that this is the only universe and there are no other universes? Again, how are you certain? 

Do you believe aliens exist? 

Do you believe human intelligence is the only type of intelligence that has ever existed? Basically, that humans are the first entities that exhibit this type of intelligence, consciousness, sentience? 

 
Outplayz
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@Mopac
Socialism is fundamentally an exploitation of people's envy and greed to destroy their own societies and consolidate 99% of the wealth, power 
That is so skewed. Capitalism is the exploitation of people's envy and greed. It's what fuels love for money. And as you say, we live in a wicked society. Where people don't care about other people if they don't know them. I could be dying of hunger and you, or maybe not you but most others, wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Now, making a dramatic leap to socialism wouldn't be the key to stopping it... but, it is in a better direction that capitalism and trusting the money will trickle down... in no way does that happen bc people are greedy and flawed with basically no working empathy towards those they don't know.  
Discipulus_Didicit
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@Outplayz
How are you certain that no gods exist? 

I'm not. Never said I was.

Do you believe this is the only reality? Basically, that this is the only universe and there are no other universes?

Yes.

Again, how are you certain?

I'm not.

Do you believe aliens exist?

Yes.

Do you believe human intelligence is the only type of intelligence that has ever existed? Basically, that humans are the first entities that exhibit this type of intelligence, consciousness, sentience?

You mean besides the few human-like species on Earth such as Neanderthal and others, I assume. Yes. I think Earthlings might very well be the first sapients.

The words 'belief' and 'certainty' are not synonyms.

I would be more than happy to go into detail on why I gave any of these answers if you wish.
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@Mopac
You're just as human as I am, so don't expect me to believe you're any more perceptive unless you want to prove it.
Outplayz
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I'll just get specific on the more interesting answers. 

It's good that you acknowledge you aren't certain... i had to be certain of that first to make sure you can logically have a conversation. I'm guilty for testing the waters bc you never know on this site. Lol. 

Yes (in regards to aliens) 
I'm assuming you mean a living organism somewhere in the universe, specifically. But, if there are other living organisms, then there is no reason why there couldn't be living organisms like humans. I guess first question would be if you believe there are other intelligent being type aliens. I'll assume your answer is yes just to get to my point. 

Considering how humans are evolving and growing technologically in a time frame that is nothing compared to the universe... if there are aliens that have been around for a million years or so, somewhere, wouldn't it be logical to say they could have created a "god"? One way would be to create a super computer that they have downloaded their civilization into. In this simulation they can create any reality, or anything they have imagined. Basically, a god type civilization. This would mean a god is logically to have been created by another intelligent civilization.  

I think Earthlings might very well be the first sapients.
This is why i also assume what i said above's answer might be no, as to intelligent aliens. But, i will challenge that here. You think it is logical, in a seemingly infinite platform, that we are the first? We are proof that are type of intelligence is real and can exist. Wouldn't it be illogical to say we are the first? 

These questions circle back to the first two questions. Such as another intelligent entity, aliens, if they created a simulation... would mean there are alternative realities. I guess it really comes down to if you think we are the only intelligence that has ever existed... which then i would have to ask, isn't that illogical given infinite time. We can define infinite as having no boundaries and/or having a definitive end. If you think things are finite, i would question how is that possible and/or logical? An infinite setting makes more sense than a finite setting (bridged interestingly bc intelligence exists).  
Discipulus_Didicit
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@Outplayz
I'm assuming you mean a living organism somewhere in the universe, specifically. But, if there are other living organisms, then there is no reason why there couldn't be living organisms like humans.

Sure sure, such a thing as you describe and a myriad of other possibilities are of course possible - that is why I do not claim 100% certainty on that or any of my other answers - but I do not think such is the case.

That goes equally for your thought experiment about us being in a simulation created by some other intelligence. I do not claim that this is impossible, I claim only that there is insufficient evidence to convince me that this is actually the case.

I have previously admitted that I am hesitant to claim 100% certainty on most things and I will now say that the idea of Earth being the first birthplace of intelligence is the one that I am least certain about out of those questions you asked. I do however think that there is evidence that we may be the first, at least within our local group of galaxies.

As for what that evidence is i actually think it might be better to open a new thread, perhaps in the science or philosophy forum, rather than go into detail here if you wish to have that conversation. If not then I will simply say "I think the most likely possibility is that we are the first (at least within our local group of galaxies)" and leave it at that.

You think it is logical, in a seemingly infinite platform, that we are the first? We are proof that are type of intelligence is real and can exist. Wouldn't it be illogical to say we are the first? 

Again I admit It is possible that other intelligences existed prior to ours, but I do not think it is in fact the case. Even you, and I am assuming here that you do not believe humanity to be the first example of sapient life, must admit that It is possible that we are the first even if you do not think it likely. After all in a scenario where there are... 'multiple generations of sapience' I suppose, for lack of a better term... Even in that scenario someone has to be first and that someone could be us.

It is therefore not about what is possible, since we both acknowledge both possibilities are possible, but instead It is about what is more likely. I think It is more likely that there have not been other intelligences before ours and you (I assume) believe It more likely that there have.

Again the specific reasons why I think this is more likely is something I would rather discuss in another thread, if you wish to have that conversation that is.

It just so happens that the existence and nature of intelligence (I am sure you have heard of the Fermi paradox) is something that I have recently (within the last few months) spent  A LOT of time thinking about. In fact if you had asked me that last question this time last year I may well have given a very different answer.

An infinite setting makes more sense than a finite setting

There are multiple problems with the idea of an infinite past. Entropy is not the only such problem, It is simply one of the strongest and most well known.
keithprosser
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@Discipulus_Didicit
There are multiple problems with the idea of an infinite past. Entropy is not the only such problem, It is simply one of the strongest and most well known.
The idea that a universe with an infinite past would be at thermal equlibrium (ie maximum entropy) by now only applies if the universe is a closed system.  but in the steady state theory the universe is not closed -  new, low entropy material is constantly appearing counteracting the thermodynamic increase in entropy with time.   So a steady state universe could have an infinite past.

Outplayz
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Overall you're right in your assessment bw our to beliefs. I do find it more likely that we are not the first, while i understand you don't think we are. Since we both can't prove either or, it just comes down to personal speculation. I just personally think it is very unlikely, given infinite time, we are the first every intelligent thinking entities. I almost find it impossible, but i do agree with your micro version of it, within our galaxy at least, yes i would agree we are the first (i think the fermi paradox backs this assumption). I would actually take that further and say we are the first within this universe, but then again, i believe in multiple universes which is why i go that way i believe that way. If this is the only universe, then i would only agree as far as the micro scale. So, it really just comes down to personal speculation on this topic. It's probably better to address the details on the other thread when i get into why i suspect afterlives as i do, bc this conversation is probably going to go that route anyways. 

In regards to there being problems with an infinite platform. I have not heard any that would convince me it's not possible. I haven't heard of the entropy one, but i read Keiths response and kinda got an idea of what you mean. I think in system where it began, even if it is infinite beginnings, entropy will play out how it is. Remember, i believe in multiple universes (of some kind..not sure which is exactly the right one), so i don't think our universe is the first that had a beginning... or it could be that our universe has always been around and this is just how it's always played out as it moves. But since i've never heard of the entropy thing, i may be missing out on something. 

One thing i'd like to add to the infinite setting is that i think if there is a higher intelligence (of some kind) that it can navigate the setting or in some way manipulate it... most of the paradoxes i've heard of at least are explained. It at least works much better than a finite setting where you'd have to explain where it ends, what is the end made of, how long does it stay ended, and does it start again. That is why a setting without an end or boundaries makes more sense to me.  



Discipulus_Didicit
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@keithprosser
We can be pretty sure that the universe's past is not infinite. Einstein's cosmological constant has been very thoroughly discredited for decades now.

As for the cosmos being infinite, which is what I assume you meant (and probably what Outplayz meant too I realize, now that I think about it...) That is a topic that I have spent significantly less time thinking about but overall as far as I know it is possible for time to have existed before the Big Bang and thus possible for the cosmos to be infinitely old. Whether this is actually the case or what the implications are for the nature of the cosmos... Fuck if I know.
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@Outplayz
Since we both can't prove either or, it just comes down to personal speculation.

Like I said I do actually have reasons why I think this is the case, just not something I want to go into detail on in this thread, or really even this forum.

It's probably better to address the details on the other thread when i get into why i suspect afterlives as i do, bc this conversation is probably going to go that route anyways. 

Very well, not really very efficient to have two conversations going at once with the same person so merging them into the other thread is fine by me.
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@Outplayz
@keithprosser

I don't buy into the socialism/capitalism dichotomy.  Capitalism is a theory of how economics works. Socialism is not a theory of how economics works.


I still believe that socialism is inherently materialistic, anti-religion, and a way of consolidating wealth, power, and authority into the control of the state, which is the god of a socialist country.

Their reason in a socialist country for destroying the church is much the same as their reason for toppling businesses. To the socialist government, they look the same.

And really, what part of abolishing private propert sounds like a good idea? Socialism perpetual middle stage towards communism, or state enforced anarchy.

I think it is stupid.

Socialism is, in my opinion. The religion that has state sponsorship, and lets not kid ourselves, it is a religion. 

But I am neither a socialist or a capitalist, and I don't vote. I am not interested in politics. Not really interested in debating this either. This is what I see. 
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@BrutalTruth
I don't expect you to believe what I say about anything.


keithprosser
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Oh I agree the past is not infinite.  It was the entropy argument against it I was having a go at, just to wind you up really.  I wondered what other argumnts there were!

Apparently Hoyle and Gold dealt with the entropy issue in their original paper on the steady state theory, but the maths in the paper is beyond me. so i'm relying on 3rd parties.

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@Mopac
So you think socialism equals atheism therefore you are against it bc... yeah, fuck atheists. SMH. Come on man, you are the poster child for why religion is all corrupting. I respect that you don't want to talk about politics so i won't get further into it... but i'll leave it on a religious note which i agree with... man is sinful and corrupt. This is why i do not trust they will help other man from the kindness of their hearts. If we didn't have SS, i am confident the old in this country would be suffering... bc yeah, humans are sinful, greedy, creatures... this doesn't mean there aren't good ones, but i'm not confident there are enough good ones.  
Discipulus_Didicit
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@Mopac
I don't buy into the socialism/capitalism dichotomy.  Capitalism is a theory of how economics works. Socialism is not a theory of how economics works.

I think the meanings of words such as socialism are generally more nuanced than their simple dictionary definition because language is a social construct and therefore simply throwing the definition of a word at someone to prove a point is immature and childish.

You, however, think that throwing around a dictionary definition to prove a point is perfectly valid. Therefore here I am throwing the dictionary definition of the word socialism at you.

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@Mopac
It would be a lie to say that atheism and nihilism were not fundamentally satanic.
Why would you blame a mythical character I thought you were about truth. Prove that satan exists.
We don't believe in genocide.
Your god does and interpretation is not needed, just reading.

And I am not calling you genocidal,
But you're calling us genocidal.......LOOK
though I have little doubt that if an atheistic socialist government came into power they would persecute the church,

as socialists have always been very anti-religious.
Just look at Sweden.


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@Discipulus_Didicit
WoA reads scroll to me. I've never read past the first sentence of his first ever post.
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@Mopac
I don't expect you to believe what I say about anything.

Well, considering that you refuse to prove anything you say, that's very logical of you.
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@Mopac
And it is naive to think that a spiritually bankrupt and wicked people could ever create a utopian classless society here on Earth. Socialism is fundamentally an exploitation of people's envy and greed to destroy their own societies and consolidate 99% of the wealth, power  and resources of a country into the hands of the 1%. Yes, the very thing socialists think they are fighting for is what it is they are going to bring about!

A definition of America could not be more accurate, well done.


Discipulus_Didicit
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@keithprosser
Oh I agree the past is not infinite.  It was the entropy argument against it I was having a go at, just to wind you up really.  I wondered what other argumnts there were! 

Whaaaat? What could have possibly given you the idea that It is possible to wind me up? Hahaha, ridiculous!

Well except for... eh, and... Okay nevermind.

But really that truly was just a misunderstanding on my part equivocating 'universe' with 'cosmos'. I really have no idea about the cosmos having an infinite past and I don't even mean that in the "I think this but I might be wrong" sense, I truly have no idea. I have simply not thought about it or researched the topic enough.

You and Outplayz have piqued my interest in the topic though. I will probably look more into it in the near future.
Discipulus_Didicit
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@disgusted
WoA reads scroll to me. I've never read past the first sentence of his first ever post.

You aren't missing anything interesting. He is basically just a bizzaro version of PW, absolutely convinced beyond all reason that anything that has anything to do with religion is the source of everything wrong with the world.

I am also not 100% convinced that he isn't a cleverly programmed spam bot.
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@Mopac
I do not fear you, nor any threat to my life here on Earth. I am not of this world.
So afraid of death that you refuse to accept it's existence. Poor fellow.


keithprosser
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I am also not 100% convinced that he isn't a cleverly programmed spam bot.
I am.  No way is it a cleverly programmed bot.

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@keithprosser
Lol fair
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@Mopac
I still believe that socialism is inherently materialistic, anti-religion, and a way of consolidating wealth, power, and authority into the control of the state, which is the god of a socialist country.
Just look at Denmark.


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@Discipulus_Didicit
Note that it says theory of economic and social organization, not a theory of how economics works.

I certainly respect oxford's definition.

But I agree, it is a complicated subject. A complicated subject I don't necessarily feel would lead to a fruitful discussion.



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@BrutalTruth
Definition of proof

"the cogency of evidence thatcompels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact"


As proof requires the changing of a mind, all one has to do is refuse to change their mind and they could rightly say "There is no proof"!


This is another language trick of atheist sophistry that you have fallen for.



This might be the evidence you were asking for in your last post, if you accept it.