The overwhelming majority of godists.....

Author: vagabond

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#31
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@Mopac
There is nothing about saying "The Truth is God" that implies any of the discrepancies you have.
Truth doesn't have gender, doesn't have wrath, doesn't speak or do things. What you just described as God is an entity that has and does those things. That is the discrepancy.

It sounds to me like you are superstitious.
I'm not the one that things truths can be angry.

You perhaps have a lot of unnecessary baggage surrounding the concept of "God".
The only "baggage" I have with respect to god concepts is that invented by theists.

Maybe you should stop attaching things you believe are untrue to The Truth.
I don't attached things I believe to be untrue to truths. For example, I don't believe "God" is "The Truth" so I don't attach him to it.

And then realize that when you talk about The Truth, that is what the word "God" means. Not everything you think God means is The Truth.
I don't realize that. Sorry. You might think you're shedding some light onto the subject or dispensing some knowledge, but you're talking in circles and riddles.
#32
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@drafterman
You don't really understand the subject matter, but you aren't going to believe me because you already think you know.

So there is nothing I can teach you. You, after all, think you know better than me when it comes to this subject.

The Truth is God, that is literally what is meant by the term "God". If you can't accept this basic premise, you aren't going to get rid of your superstitions.

You also aren't going to understand what I believe.

So keep on attacking fairy tales. No argument stands against God.




#33
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@Mopac
The Truth is God, that is literally what is meant by the term "God"
The reason why I don't accept this premise is because it is patently false. In almost every culture across history, "god" is some sort of personal force that interacts with the world. Even among Christians, "God" is a thing. An entity. It isn't merely a collection of facts that represents the true nature of reality.

Etymologically speaking, the word "god" has a somewhat murky past, but nothing I see that ties it to "The Truth" or "Ultimate Reality" rather the word seems to be associated with religious rituals.

Semantically speaking, there are definitions which include "Truth" in the definition of "God" but also include other attributes, such as: being an entity of some sort, having a mind, and other such things. This definition of the term seems mostly associated with Christian Science - does that describe you?

Regardless, that doesn't mean God literally means "the Truth." It would seem that there is more to it than just that, among all the other definitions for "God" that there are (upon which you've given me no reason to accept any of them, let alone yours over any other).
#34
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@drafterman
Well, before I can really tellnyou anything else, you must first be open to the possibility that you are wrong.

In fact, you are very wrong. What is happening here is, I am telling you what I believe and you are telling me I believe something else.

You are way off the mark, and I'm not capable of sifting through all that, especially when you can't even accept a definition. 


If I am talking about The Truth, and say something that isn't implied by that, you could certainly debate over that. But one thing that absolutely is not up for debate is the identity of God as being The Truth.


Otherwise, you are not talking about God you are talking about a god. The God I believe in is The Supreme Being.

If you attribute false things to God, by definition these are not attributes of God who is The Truth.

So where can I go? We can argue scripture all day to what end? So you can try to trap me in my words and then discredit everything true I am telling you? It's a fools game that I am not interested in, especially when you don't believe.

I am talking about a tree and you keep insisting that I am talking about a rock. We aren't going to get anywhere like this.



#35
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@Mopac
I am always open to the possibility that I am wrong. And I'm not telling you to believe something else.

What you fail to realize that almost everything you said is mainly nonsensical. It makes as much sense to me as saying "God is an Apple."

So, let's start simple.

"God is the Truth."

This is the definition you have presented to me to accept. I don't accept it because I see no reason to accept it. Why should I accept it?

#36
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@drafterman
Because this is a definition.


It isn't....

"Everything I think God means or attach to God or even statements about God are Truth"


I'm not talking about conceptions about The Truth, I am talking quite literally, not figuratively, not metaphorically, about The Truth.

The Truth is God.

To say, "God is an apple" is not the same thing as "God is The Truth".


What I am saying is only nonsensical to you because you haven't yet accepted what God is.

You have a particular idea in your head about what God is and what God means, but I am telling you that these preconceived ideas are going to get in the way.


So throwing aside religion, culture, traditions and the like for a moment... The one thing that must first be absolutely accepted as fact is that God literally is The Truth. That is God.


And there are many different religions who will say all sorts of things about The Truth, but The Truth is, and it is what it is.

Understanding that this is what God means, realize that the atheist is denying this True God alongside all of the other false gods. The only way to make atheism true in this case, is to make God into something other than what God is. All atheist arguments are contingent on ignoring the reality of this One God.

Believing God does not imply believing anything other than The Truth exists. So you may not identify as a Christian, a Muslim, a Sikh, a Hindu, etc. But you can still believe with a certainty that God exists. Supreme Being literally means that existence is a necessary quality of God because that is what the word being means.

So really, the only thing I am trying to tell you is that The Truth is God, and this is what educated people believe. Educated people are not masochistic enough to debate the existence of truth with people who say there is no truth. I am on a fools mission for loves sake. Otherwise, what is the point? I may have something to offer here, I have unique gifts. I pray my mission isn't in vain.


 So it is absolutely necessary that it is understood that when I say "God", this means "The Ultimate Reality".

Otherwise, we aren't talking about the same thing. If you believe The Ultimate Reality exists, you already believe in God whether or not you know to call God by name.

#37
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@Mopac
Because this is a definition.
Right, but a definition is just a reference created by people. There mere existence of there being a definition doesn't make something true or valid. So I get, and accept, that you define God as "The Truth" and the "Ultimate Reality."

And, I accept that truth exists.

I also believe that there is, objectively, a reality that exists that is true.

But I don't see why I should define those things as "God." What is the purpose of making that assignment? Why not simply leave "The Truth" as "The Truth" or the "Ultimate Reality" as the "Ultimate Reality"?


#38
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@drafterman
Because that is historically what the concept means, what it still means, and the idea that the God deniers rejection of reality even deserves respect is ludicrous. For the sake of world peace, at least agree on this one thing. 

The only thing denying God does is cause friction and strife. For what? Senseless pride? 

It is good to battle superstition. It is good to reject false beliefs. It is good to debate for the sake of getting closer to The Truth.

What is not good is denying The Truth, and when you deny God that is exactly what you are doing. It doesn't matter if that isn't in your heart, this is what your words mean.

See, you aren't even really an atheist. Who is? A lot of people in padded rooms, I'm sure.

So if you are really going to stand for Truth, don't reject God. It ultimately is not in your best interest. It also doesn't translate very well cross culturally.

#39
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@Mopac
I do not attribute validity based on the passage of time, so, "because lots of people did it for a long period of time" isn't a convincing argument, you'll have to try another.

And I am an atheist, and I'll thank you not to tell me what I am and am not.

I believe in truth, but I do not believe in god, because I do not agree with that definition of God. You ask why I reject it, and yet you provide the answer: "It is good to reject false beliefs." I consider "God = Truth" to be a false belief, so I reject it. You say it is not in my interests, but fail to explain how.

#40
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@drafterman
You certianly have a right to be willfully ignorant 

And so you fulfill the scripture,

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."

I pray for the softening of your heart.

#41
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@Mopac
How does "The Truth" and "Ultimate Reality" have wrath? To me these are inanimate objects/ideas. Can you explain that in further detail? Is this just poetry that I need not be concerned about?
#42
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@drafterman
God's wrath certainly is a poetic way of describing what happens when people all turn over to idle wickedness and allow their society to self destruct.
God's wrath is certainly a poetic way of describing calamity.

It's kind of like the will of God is a way of describing what actually happens.

Or the hand of God being used to describe God's influence or action in the world.


Nobody actually believes that God has hands in the human sense except for the most superstitious, and none of those people are educated.

And there are a lot of things that you probably believe that fall into this category of the superstitions of the uneducated. The bible tells us to show those people charity, and guide them with mercy and truth, not take their faith and smash it against the ground.

But believe me, all this stuff is in the bible. You see stuff you don't think is right going on in the church? Odds are, there is some kind of prophesy that outright says it is going to be this way.

So there is no need to be alarmed. This is the working environment.


What is important to realize is the heart of the faith. Which is that God is The Truth, The Truth is the savior, and The Truth is Lord. If you love The Truth, then show charity to others as you yourself have been shown charity.


And if you think you've had it so rough that no one has ever shown you charity, just remember that at one point someone had to wipe your tush and feed you when you were too inept to even move to the other side of the room.

So admitting that we have sin is admitting that we are wrong. Righteousness only comes from God, as God is righteousness. Righteousness is Truth. 


But this is the good news. God has forgiven you. Now pass it on and forgive others. The Truth is what sets you free. Be honest. Do things the right way. Live for the truth. Not the satisfying of the lusts of mind and flesh, which are all vanity. Find peace in God. Not only will you have a better time on this planet, but so will the world around you. 

If your fortress is God, peace can be found even in the most trying of circumstance. A world that loves darkness will do everything it can to stomp out the light, because the works of darkness are the works of wickedness, and these are not works based in Truth.






#43
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@Mopac
If God is nothing more than Truth, then what is "sin"?
#44
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@drafterman
Falling short.

The easiest way this can be denonstrated... have you ever been wrong about anything? Have you ever been surprised? Have you ever learned anything?

The reality that we experience is not The Ultimate Reality. But we have our relationship with The Ultimate Reality through the reality we experience.

And that is The Trinity.

Our relationship to The Truth guided by the spirit of truth through the most perfect image of The Truth.








#45
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@Mopac
Wait, so... not knowing things is a sin?

What does that have to do with things like adultury, fornication, and sodomy? What do they have to do with "The Truth"?
#46
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@drafterman
These things are symptoms of idolotry, which is worshipping the creature rather than the creator. Idolatries get in the way of being sincere towards the truth. 

These activities come from slavery to lust, and they are incredibly destructive on both a personal and societal level. The orphans are multiplying, disease of the heart, mind and body is multiplying, and the love of many is waxing cold.



#47
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@Mopac
These things are symptoms of idolotry, which is worshipping the creature rather than the creator. Idolatries get in the way of being sincere towards the truth. 
I don't see what one has to do with the other. How does having sex outside of marriage mean I'm not being "sincere towards the truth?"
#48
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@drafterman
Why are you having sex outside of marriage?
#49
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@Mopac
I'm not having sex out of marriage. Now:

How does having sex outside of marriage mean I'm not being "sincere towards the truth?"
#50
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@drafterman
Well, what is it a symptom of? Lust.

When you are being controlled by lust, it is going to effect your sincerity in the sense that even if you were to strive for integrity, you have this lust effecting your judgment. You end up becoming a slave to this lust. It is truth in relation to the fulfillment of this lust rather than truth itself.

Someone who is addicted to something is going to compromise what is right and good to do in order to satisfy that addiction, and they will come up with all sorts of rationale to justify continuing in their addiction. This is most easily observed in the abuse of substances, but it is not exclusive to drug or alcohol abuse 

Sexual immorality is harmful. This can be witnessed. It makes people callous towards eachother. It cheapens relationships. It harms children. It leads to slavery. It spreads disease. It objectifies people. It's not healthy for the individual or society.

So if you really love your people, why would you do what is harmful to them? Only to satisfy a lust. And feeding into lust harms the self because it draws you further and further away, making it harder and harder to break free. Besides that, you are involving another party, and by fornicating with them, you are harming them in the same way you are harming yourself.

But believe me, there are many haughty people who have been humbled after going on for years thinking that their lusts have no control over them and do not effect their minds and souls. It is easy to get haughty. Turn a drink into medicine, turn a fling into casual entertainment. These are all idols before God, and there is nothing in them that will bring a lasting happiness.

Make God yournpeace, God your happiness. Build on the rock, not sand.



#51
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@Mopac
When you are being controlled by lust, it is going to effect your sincerity in the sense that even if you were to strive for integrity, you have this lust effecting your judgment. You end up becoming a slave to this lust. It is truth in relation to the fulfillment of this lust rather than truth itself.
How does having sex outside of marriage mean a person is "controlled by lust" to the point of being incapable of sound judgment about the truth?
#52
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@drafterman
If you are unwilling to accept God because you personally don't think fornication is a sin....

Well you have your example.
#53
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@Mopac
You certainly haven't explained why. I had sex with my wife before we got married and I have sex with her now that we have married. Yet for some reason one is a sin and the other isn't. Magic, I suppose.
#54
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@drafterman
You both did the right thing.
In fact, that is actually the biblical prescription for if this circumstance takes place.

#55
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@Mopac
But you contend that one is sin and the other is not?
#56
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@drafterman
This is certainly what I believe. No, it is not good to have sex outside of marriage. You both did right by marrying. I would say that you both become married when you had intercourse, and the marriage was officially validated when you both went through with marriage.


Would I encourage intercourse before marriage? Certainly not. There are plenty of fiends who will lie in order to sleep with a woman, telling them that they will stay only to leave them and an orphan behind. It would be wrong of me to encourage fornication.


You and your wife are married now. That was the right thing to do.

But there is something else you really need to get about what I am saying. You believing in God does not mean you believe the same things I believe about God. Mohammedians believe in God. Vedantists believe in God. It's the same God, The Ultimate Reality.

So you believing The Ultimate Reality exists doesn't imply that you belong to a particular religious tradition.


I am a Christian. I am educated as a Christian. I am involved in the church. I believe in my religion. I would be happy to teach you if that is what you wanted.

I am telling you that The Truth is the meaning of The One God, and that is what I'd really like to see you walk away with. Atheism towards this God is foolishness.


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#57
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@Mopac
The only thing denying God does is cause friction and strife. For what? Senseless pride? 

Denying which god?

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#58
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@Mopac
But believe me,
Why? You've said nothing believable.
All gods are the creation of man.

#59
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@Mopac
But what's the difference between the two acts? They are physically, chemically, biologically, physiologically, emotionally the same. Yet one is a sin and the other is not. How so?
#60
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@drafterman
They are not the same. In one instance you are not married, the other instance you are.

I'm not interested in debating the ethics of fornication to you. I think the fact this is your hang up says a lot about where your heart is.

What does this have to do with The Truth being God? Nothing.