What does 70 groups of 7 mean and why you think it means what it does: FOR PGA

Author: ludofl3x

Posts

Total: 79
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@ludofl3x
The understanding of the prophecy came after I believed in Jesus, not before. What I am saying is that there were good reasons for believing in Jesus before I understood the prophetic message. The prophetic message is just one aspect and course of defence of the faith and the one I prefer to use because I have not found a reasonable answer to it with the evidence available to us. 
If this prophecy was proven false to your satisfaction, would you then stop believing in Jesus?
It would mean I do not have a correct understanding of the issue. That would not disqualify me from believing in Jesus. So, prove I am wrong once you hear my presentation, yet you won't give me the chance to share it because you keep shutting me down. I'm not going to waste building the case if you won't answer my questions along the way. As soon as you did this the topic was derailed. 

I think the answer is no. It sounds like from the above, the answer would be no. If I'm right, then why do you continue to talk about this prophecy as if anyone else should care about it, or stake their faith on it? It just seems strange. It doesn't mean much to you, if your faith doesn't hinge on it. Why should anyone else care?
My faith hinges on a correct interpretation of Scripture for if I have the wrong Jesus I have the wrong faith. If I have the wrong escatology much of my theology is in question for I do not worship God in spirit and in truth
If you think my theology is wrong then challenge my understanding of it. Let us see who has the more reasonable and logical position. That is all I'm asking. Instead, with most atheists, it becomes a game of avoiding the subject. 



Tell me what would make my prophecy impressive enough to perhaps allow that your god isn't the only god. I will, again, describe this prophecy and you can tell me which part of my description is LESS impressive than yours"
Show me another "god" who can predict over and over again the end of things from the beginning and give good reason to doing so repeatedly.

Show me your god doing it and we can compare, but you're missing the point: if I could show you unquestionable evidence of a prediction and a result, predicted years prior, to the month, with no reason or inkling to make it likely, would you think that would be evidence of whatever god I'd ascribe it to
First, answer my post #2 questions before we continue. And any evidence can be questioned. The question is whether it is reasonable and logically coherent. 

Yes, it would give some credence to your claimed god if the evidence was reasonable. It would mean that in this aspect - prophecy - there was some believability to your claim. 


My event without precedent means IT NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE. Your biblical prophesy hinges on something happening that had happened hundreds if not thousands of times before, and was totally unremarkable: Romans gentrifying an unrurly populace by destroying cultural touchstones. They did it for a thousand years.
You misunderstand the scope and weightiness of the prophecy. It was the complete collapse of a system of worship and relationship practiced for over one thousand years. It was the culmination of all OT unfulfilled prophecy being fulfilled, including the first and second coming of the Messiah, the judgment, and resurrection into a new and everlasting kingdom for believers. You misunderstand the myriad of references by all these prophets and teachers sent by God all being fulfilled in the lifetime of that generation that received Jesus.  

Mine? Never happened, and hasn't happened since. Would you say it was harder to predict something that NEVER happened before, or something that had happened thousands of times before in very similar situations?
What prophetic event are you speaking of? Lay down your case. Let's test it. 

Daniel 9:24 predicts something into a year depending on where you start and how you work your extra-biblical multiplication in. Mine? Was predicted with unquestionable accuracy. It says "IN X YEAR THIS WILL HAPPEN." Which is more impressive prophesy, using clear language and an exact event and year, or vague poetry with some scholar figuring it out eventually, after the fact?
Daniel 9:24-27 is not vague. It is very specific. Produce your prophecy, its fulfillment and we will compare it to the biblical revelation. 


 

My prophesy has photographic evidence. Yours does not. Which one is more impressive?

So you believe then if I can provide you this prophesy and the prophet says Xenu told him, you'd say "You're right, I'll give Xenu credit?"
Again, I do not have the foggiest idea of what you are talking about. 

disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@PGA2.0
And the soul of the aborted straight to heaven and god's love. No greater gift can be given a soul.
Abortionists are doing the job that preachers continually fail at, sending souls to heaven.
disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@PGA2.0
Daniel 9:24-27 is not vague. It is very specific
Yes it is look.
24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
Very specific, to bad it was out by 488.5 years.

ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,006
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@PGA2.0
I honestly don't know what questions I've left open. All I've said is you can't use your claim (the bible) as evidence of itself, and you can't say something is in the bible if it isn't (footnotes) because then you're not talking about biblical prophesy. As it is, your prophecy, "Rome will destroy Jerusalem in 490 AD," does not in any way appear in the bible. The passage deals with a far shorter amount of time, and it draws on interpretation of an account of someone's dream which had a statue that had clay feet. The more I think about, the key factor in prophesy would seem to be that it's something you clearly can take advance action on. If you can only figure out it was a prophesy after whatever prophesied happened, and even then only with some real twisting and turning, then it isn't much good at all. I'll give you an example you'll appreciate: Rory McIlroy's dad prophesied in 2004 that he'd win the 2014 British Open. He bet something like 400 pounds on it, and ended up winning 171K when McIlroy DID win the 2014 British. That's pretty impressive prophesying, right? Still not the example I have in mind, but it's actionable and provable and specific. All things your prophesy isn't. In any case, restate your question that you feel I've left open and I'll gladly answer. 

If you think my theology is wrong then challenge my understanding of it. Let us see who has the more reasonable and logical position. That is all I'm asking. Instead, with most atheists, it becomes a game of avoiding the subject. 
This is akin to asking if you think my understanding of the cinematic universe of Star Wars is wrong, then challenge my understanding of it. It's a ridiculous question because you don't think that Star Wars is real, so it doesn't really matter if I understand it differently than you do. The more important question is why do the majority of CHristians think you're wrong? You're all in the same club supposedly. But more importantly, you've done this a couple of times: you shift the goalposts. I'm asking what's DEMONSTRABLE. You're saying your position is REASONABLE, LOGICAL, but neither of those are demonstrable. Is a black hole logical? Is the gravitational force exerted on light and the resulting time dilation LOGICAL? No, but they are indeed both demonstrable. The problem I have is that you say that no matter what, you're not going to think you might be wrong. Even if this prophesy is DEFINITIVELY proven false, it doesn't shake your faith enough to say "Wait a minute, maybe the god in this book isn't correct." You admit that you'd just go back and find another way to make it so: "I don't understand Jesus correctly" allows you to maintain your presupposition of Jesus in the first place. 

You misunderstand the scope and weightiness of the prophecy. It was the complete collapse of a system of worship and relationship practiced for over one thousand years. It was the culmination of all OT unfulfilled prophecy being fulfilled, including the first and second coming of the Messiah, the judgment, and resurrection into a new and everlasting kingdom for believers. You misunderstand the myriad of references by all these prophets and teachers sent by God all being fulfilled in the lifetime of that generation that received Jesus. 
So zombie Hebrews rose from the graves and walked the streets at some point? Again, the vast, vast, vast majority of Christians, your own faith, do not believe any of this, why not, if it's so obvious? Please show me the biblical passage that says "Verily, o yea, the LORD thy God will undermine the very essence of the great Roman Eagle, the ECONOMY! A pair of messiahs will arrive on this day and say "Told thee so!" and then all of my children will move into heaven with Me." I presume that's in the bible somewhere, and not in a footnote, and I presume it's specific, like McIlroy's dad. 


Again to review: never happened before, unlike Roman gentrification, which had happened thousands of times. Was specific in every way, naming not only a team (by name, not by description of a uniform or in vague terms like "a group of southern stars shall band together," it just says the Astros) but the EXACT MONTH in which the prediction would occur (it does not say 174 groups of seven or 36 groups of 30 plus a little margin, the World Series happens in the last two weeks of October every year). The prediction cover even accidentally picked the player who would win the WS MVP (george Springer is the player on the cover in 2014, and is the WS MVP in 2017). Is this not an impressive prophesy? It's so accurate that the only possible explanation is the involvement of Xenu. Right? 

Let me guess, it doesn't meet some condition you require but have heretofore been unable to specify? And now you'll explain why it's not as good as your prophesy, after the fact, even though it is exactly as I described.  
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@ludofl3x

I honestly don't know what questions I've left open.
Post #2: 
How do you think the Jews of the first century thought about Daniel's prophecy?
Do you think they were looking for a Messiah around this 1st-century period?

Post # 21-22 laid out why what is translated as weeks is more precisely seen as sevens. You skipped engaging in the argument of why your view of Daniel 9:24 is reasonable since both Jews and Gentiles believe the Hebrew word is a "heptad" which is a period of seven. 

I also laid out why AD 70 is reasonable to believe to Keith in Post 23. It does not just concern Daniel 9:24-27. Many OT passages address this time frame.

Post 23: "Show me how it forces its interpretation rather than bringing it to light. You acknowledge Jerusalem was destroyed and this was prophesied before AD70 since you acknowledge Daniel was written around 150 BCE.

1. Show me, from the OT where a coming judgment is not prophesied.
2. Show me where countless OT prophets and teachers (their writings) do not warn these Old Covenant warnings of impending judgment and a coming Messiah that does not fit after AD 70.
3. Show me how the Mosaic Law can be met after AD 70. 
4. Show me how the resurrection and judgment do not fit the AD 70 deadline, per Scripture. 
5. Show me how the Messiah does not apply to the Mosaic Covenant people. 

Show me how any of this is forced from Scripture." 


All I've said is you can't use your claim (the bible) as evidence of itself, and you can't say something is in the bible if it isn't (footnotes) because then you're not talking about biblical prophesy.
This is like saying you can't use mathematics to prove mathematics. IOW's, don't mention the biblical prophecy in proving the biblical prophecy.



https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Destruction-Of-Jerusalem
As it is, your prophecy, "Rome will destroy Jerusalem in 490 AD," does not in any way appear in the bible.
The concept of this judgment is presented in Daniel 9 and it is a concept that is presented in Deuteronomy 28 in the curses of disobedience. It is presented in many other OT passages.

In Daniel 9 God promised another judgment after the decree was issued that would bring in the six conditions stated in verse 24. Again, the NT demonstrated that Jesus fits the bill of these six fulfillments. 

The passage deals with a far shorter amount of time, and it draws on interpretation of an account of someone's dream which had a statue that had clay feet. The more I think about, the key factor in prophesy would seem to be that it's something you clearly can take advance action on. If you can only figure out it was a prophesy after whatever prophesied happened, and even then only with some real twisting and turning, then it isn't much good at all. I'll give you an example you'll appreciate: Rory McIlroy's dad prophesied in 2004 that he'd win the 2014 British Open. He bet something like 400 pounds on it, and ended up winning 171K when McIlroy DID win the 2014 British. That's pretty impressive prophesying, right? Still not the example I have in mind, but it's actionable and provable and specific. All things your prophesy isn't. In any case, restate your question that you feel I've left open and I'll gladly answer.
McIlroy's prophecy is nowhere as detailed plus Rory probably knew of it and had a desire to make his father's dream come true.  

If you think my theology is wrong then challenge my understanding of it. Let us see who has the more reasonable and logical position. That is all I'm asking. Instead, with most atheists, it becomes a game of avoiding the subject. 
This is akin to asking if you think my understanding of the cinematic universe of Star Wars is wrong, then challenge my understanding of it. It's a ridiculous question because you don't think that Star Wars is real, so it doesn't really matter if I understand it differently than you do.
It is not ridiculous at all. The Prophecies exist. They are written down and can be referenced. History is the witness that can be employed in looking at the prophecies.  


The more important question is why do the majority of CHristians think you're wrong?
Because of Dispensationalism which is not reasonable in any way yet the doctrine took hold of the church. 

You're all in the same club supposedly. But more importantly, you've done this a couple of times: you shift the goalposts. I'm asking what's DEMONSTRABLE. You're saying your position is REASONABLE, LOGICAL, but neither of those are demonstrable.
Yes, they are demonstratable. I have claimed this all along that the Preterist position is the most reasonable and logical position of interpreting the Bible. All other positions unravel. I have offered to show you its reasonableness but we could not get passed the seventy "weeks." You are deadset in making it weeks, yet the Hebrew word is "sevens." God was multiplying the judgment seven times until the judgment was complete once the decree was issued.

Is a black hole logical? Is the gravitational force exerted on light and the resulting time dilation LOGICAL? No, but they are indeed both demonstrable. The problem I have is that you say that no matter what, you're not going to think you might be wrong. Even if this prophesy is DEFINITIVELY proven false, it doesn't shake your faith enough to say "Wait a minute, maybe the god in this book isn't correct."
You have not definitively proven it false. You have skirted the issue in your own interpretation where you take the word "weeks" as a literal period of weeks instead of years. Thus, our discussion is over since you will not proceed further. 

PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@ludofl3x

You misunderstand the scope and weightiness of the prophecy. It was the complete collapse of a system of worship and relationship practiced for over one thousand years. It was the culmination of all OT unfulfilled prophecy being fulfilled, including the first and second coming of the Messiah, the judgment, and resurrection into a new and everlasting kingdom for believers. You misunderstand the myriad of references by all these prophets and teachers sent by God all being fulfilled in the lifetime of that generation that received Jesus. 
So zombie Hebrews rose from the graves and walked the streets at some point? Again, the vast, vast, vast majority of Christians, your own faith, do not believe any of this, why not, if it's so obvious?

Because, as I said earlier, most Christians today have brought into Dispensationalism. 


Please show me the biblical passage that says "Verily, o yea, the LORD thy God will undermine the very essence of the great Roman Eagle, the ECONOMY! A pair of messiahs will arrive on this day and say "Told thee so!" and then all of my children will move into heaven with Me." I presume that's in the bible somewhere, and not in a footnote, and I presume it's specific, like McIlroy's dad. 
Please list the passage you are referencing. 



Again to review: never happened before, unlike Roman gentrification, which had happened thousands of times. Was specific in every way, naming not only a team (by name, not by description of a uniform or in vague terms like "a group of southern stars shall band together," it just says the Astros) but the EXACT MONTH in which the prediction would occur (it does not say 174 groups of seven or 36 groups of 30 plus a little margin, the World Series happens in the last two weeks of October every year). The prediction cover even accidentally picked the player who would win the WS MVP (george Springer is the player on the cover in 2014, and is the WS MVP in 2017). Is this not an impressive prophesy? It's so accurate that the only possible explanation is the involvement of Xenu. Right? 

Let me guess, it doesn't meet some condition you require but have heretofore been unable to specify? And now you'll explain why it's not as good as your prophesy, after the fact, even though it is exactly as I described.  

First, George Springer was with the Astros in 2014 and a promising player. Although he was on the cover where did it prophesy he was to be the MVP? Second, the team was in a rebuilding in which they foresaw themselves as contenders in three years time. Where does the article say they would win 5-1?

The Messiah has over 300 hundred specific prophecies concerning Him, even recording His birthplace and manner of death before crucifixion was common practice. There were also specific prophecies concerning Israel, like warnings of curses, like the once again destruction of the city and temple and the abomination of desolation, wars, a covenant with the people, the end of sacrifice and offering, etc. 
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@keithprosser
It is unreasonable to think that blind chance happenstance can produce let alone sustain life. An atheist worldview continues to push the narrative that it can. 
I don't think that those scientists working on abiogenesis (there aren't all that many)think of it in terms of the noble task of disproving divine creation!

 Anyone familiar with the complexity of even the simplest living thing should agree it does seem very unreasonable and unlikely that blind chance could produce life.  But if you don't - for whatever reason - like to just say 'a miracle occurred'  the only option is to go into the lab and see how it could have happened.  it's not anti-religion that motivates researchers; it's their curiosity and love of having a really difficult problem to solve.
It is how they go about solving it that is the interesting thing. A worldview that discounts the biblical God is reductionistic and fails to explain the whole. Nancy Pearcey expands on reductionism.

"Reductionism is like trying to see the world through a single lens. G.K. Chesterton called reductionism a mental prison...Whatever does not fit in that prison is denied and suppressed." Finding Truth, p. 137.  


They don't think they are disproving god - they are just being there crurious.
Even so, their worldview can't make sense when pushed and as you say below, it requires faith - blind faith, for there is nothing but blind forces of physics that brings us into a mindless process without purpose. Such a worldview continually begs the question of origins and existence and neglects us engaging our common sense. 


I don't mind it being said that belief in abiogenesis requires faith - it does.  It requires bloody-mindedness that there is a naturalistic,mechanistic explanation of life to not give up on such a hard problem!  But I've not met, read or heard of a biologist who was motivated anti-religious fervour, with possible exception of Richard Dawkins but he gave up being a badly-paid biologist and became a rich professional atheist!  His early books are so much better than The God Delusion... but I digress!

If you support one worldview you deny another in many ways. If you look at existence through the lens of a blind indifferent chance as responsible or the reason for us you have a particular bias. If you look for explanations in entirely naturalistic means you have taken a particular worldview. Science had much of its western beginnings in Christian's looking for meaning that their Creator had put here. They were trying to think God's thoughts after Him. It was hijacked by Darwinism which built upon humanism during the Enlightenment to a large degree so that today the only explanation sought is a naturalistic one by many scientists. Science can only carry the discussion so far, then it can't make sense of things like the "why." 
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@ludofl3x
Your off topic again.
You made the charge. I responded to it.


I'll shorten for clarity. I am not the one who claims to  'make sense' of any of the following questions. YOU are. I invited you to make sense of just one of them, and your answer literally made zero sense. I said "make sense of the universe" and you said "god loves us."
You paraphrase and misrepresent. I said more than that. 

The Christian worldview provides the reason for our existence. Blind indifferent chance happenstance does not. It is tautological - "We are here because we are here!"

This is a non-sequitur and makes no sense of the question. Similarly, I think that it's the same answer for your litany of other 'big questions.' Your making sense of it is basically because Jesus, which does not in any way make sense of anything, it just adds a layer of mystery which you've repeatedly been unable to demonstrate is required. The other thread's at 28 pages and all you have done is say 'The bible says it so it's true!"
And you say, "Blind chance happenstance cloaked in scientism says it is true!" There is no reason behind it - it just happens, a fluke of "nature."


No, it reminds me of how we got to where we are. It reminds me that you would not have done any better than Adam did having been given that choice. It reminds me why there is so much inhumanity in this world - that humanity decided to do what they saw fit, not what God commanded was good. 

...and therefore it's just that some mother's suffering the loss of her child, neither of whom had nothing to do with any of that. 
And your reason for suffering and death? Eventually reduced to pure chance  when we get to the nuts and bolts on what holds your worldview together.


I see the heartache of those who lose children and I see God's promises that those who trust in Him will never be put to shame, that God has promised a better life for those who believe than for those that do not trust Him

Wow, tough luck for those muslims and jews, then.
Without Christ, as Savior, we are judged on our own merit. How does your merit stack up? You intentionally choose not to believe in God or worship Him as He is. That is the case of those who deny Christ as per the Christian faith. It is exclusive, just like your faith in materialism/naturalism/humanism is exclusive. It denies the Christian worldview and per the Bible, you get what you wanted - separation from God for eternity. 
 


PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@ludofl3x
 

There are beliefs in gods. These tribes worship idols. They understand that wrongful action deserves punishment. 
But they don't have Jesus as a mediator. So they burn in hell, because all of the knowledge that was presented to them had nothing to do with Jesus or God, or the bible or anything else, so according to your doctrine, they are eternally punished.
What is eternal punishment? It is living outside or excluded from the light and love of God. That is my belief, and why do you receive such punishment? You REFUSE to live by the light of God. Why would God accept such a relationship of someone who continually rejects and denies Him, who continually does what is wrong in His sight and will not seek His terms of reconciliation? If you think your life is so pure and you are so innocent you have no worries.


Because the stuff about what "some people suggest" and what you "believe based on some scripture", that's all NOT scripture. Why does this make you so uncomfortable that you have to read anything into it? It's the perfect justice! Isn't it?

I truly believe any innocent life, such as an infant, will be with God in heaven for the reason that Jesus said,
Please cite the scritural support that shows you can get into heaven without believing in Jesus.
I have never taught that for those who are accountable to God, yet I have also pleaded that how could God punish someone who has not yet done evil, even if they have Adam's nature imputed to them? 

Matthew 1:21 (NASB)
21 She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

If salvation depended on us we would not need a Savior. We could save ourselves, yet this is not the teaching of Scripture. It is God who does all the work of salvation, not us, as if we could live up to His perfect standard or righteousness on our own accord. 

This brings up yet another question, Did Jesus die for specific people or did He just die that salvation could be possible yet not realized?

***

One common belief needs to be addressed in passing. Many who believe in a “universal” or non-specific atonement, assert that while Christ died for all, His atonement is only effective for those who believe. We shall discuss the fact that faith itself is the gift of God, given only to the elect of God, in the next chapter. But for now, we defer to the great Puritan writer, John Owen, in answering this question:

"To which I may add this dilemma to our Universalists:—God imposed his wrath due unto, and Christ underwent the pains of hell for, either all the sins of all men, or all the sins of some men, or some sins of all men. If the last, some sins of all men, then have all men some sins to answer for, and so shall no man be saved; for if God enter into judgment with us, though it were with all mankind for one sin, no flesh should be justified in his sight: “If the LORD should mark iniquities, who should stand?” Ps. cxxx. 3….If the second, that is it which we affirm, that Christ in their stead and room suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the world. If the first, why, then are not all freed from the punishment of all their sins? You will say, “Because of their unbelief; they will not believe.” But this unbelief, is it a sin, or not? If not, why should they be punished for it? If it be, then Christ underwent the punishment due to it, or not. If so, then why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which he died from partaking of the fruit of his death? If he did not, then he did not die for all their sins. Let them choose which part they will." (John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ, (London: Banner of Truth Trust, 1985) pp. 61-62.)


Not your interpretation, I want the verse that says "verily I say unto thee on this day, all people who are good, especially the tiny children even if they're born in Australia which I've never spoken about or you've never heard of, but trust me it's a place and children die there before they will ever hear of me, and I don't want them to be in trouble over it forever." Or something along those lines.
You fail to understand the scope of the atonement, as pointed out by John Owen and taught in Scripture. To understand it further you should pay attention to who is doing the saving. If it is us in any way then what do we need of a Savior? If Jesus Christ died to save His people, how can any be lost? We definitely see some are lost and the Bible makes some universal statements lie John 14:6 or Acts 4:12. It is through Jesus people find salvation, for all those He died for, for all those who will believe. Do you have the choice to believe? Have you heard the message? If so, then you are responsible for what you have heard, yet presently you reject the message. 

Since various verses teach there is none who are good, none who have done right it depends on Another (one who has met God's righteous measure and paid the atonement for believers), not on us, and it depends on what you believe about that Someone. 



 

I have offered to show you the justification and evidence yet you continue to avoid going there. 

You have continued to assert and believe what you believe without justification in any way. This is a two-way street. You are examining my worldview, but I am also examining yours. When I continue to ask you to make sense of your statements you ignore my requests. Where is the give and take?
You continue to point to your claim as your evidence.
I have given you the biblical "claim" and have offered to give you the historical evidence that supports this. I have offered to give this supporting evidence yet you will not recognize it. What do you want me to do? Do you want me to give it despite your unwillingness to hear (cognitive dissonance)? 


PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@ludofl3x


We've been through this, the two are independent of each other. And I'm willing to answer any questions, but start a topic specific to them. But this was in response to my quetion DO YOU KNOW WHAT SPECIAL PLEADING IS? And you then answered with the above then immediately demonstarted that you don't understand it. Watch:


I'll show you: if all life comes from life, where did Adam come from?
Creating by the eternal LIVING God --> life from the living.  
So where did the life in the LIVING god come from?
Again, I am speaking of all life that had a beginning. God, being without beginning nor end is excluded from such a definition. I asked you, "How can an eternal Being have a beginning to His life?"


Is it reasonable to believe that God - an omniscient, omnipotent, eternal, unchanging Being; the greatest possible Being - is the source of life?

Demonstrate the existence of this being, because stuff that doesn't exist doesn't cause anything else to exist, right? Then, demonstrate this being is the character in the bible. Then we can have a basis of discussion. But 700 responses in the other thread, not one step toward doing so.
Again, it is your PRESUPPOSITION that He does not exist, not mine. I believe He exists and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. You do not. That is not my problem, it is yours. Again, I ask, how will you believe if you refuse not to believe? How will you believe when you continually deny Him His existence? What could I persuade you of that you will not dismiss? Why would I even bother? You presently fall into the category of the seed that falls on the rocky ground. It does not germinate. It does not have sufficient requirements for its germination. As Jesus put it, you do not have ears to hear (at least not presently). 
 

You plead God is not the reasonable answer without alternative justifiable reasons. You dismiss the reasoning without hearing it. 
This is not special pleading in any way. You seem confused. There's no need for me to offer you an alternative justifiable reason (though I have, with the greco-roman Pantheon and you've not refuted it yet).
1. Why would I begin until we have ironed out whether you are even interested in hearing the explanation and evidence? 
2. We are not discussing the Greco-Roman pantheon. You created the framework - which has to do with Daniel's seventy weeks and what that means.  


You're offering a supernatural, undemonstrated explanation, and I'm just saying I have no reason to believe that unless you can show me otherwise.

I have offered to explain why historical evidence gives good logical reasons to believe the prophecies are true. Since we are caught up on the "weeks" and you will not accept the reasonable explanation on what is meant we are at a stalemate. Why should I go further? It will keep coming back to this question which you have failed to give support for your belief in it being literal weeks, not years. I gave you verses from Scripture (i.e., Scripture reveals Scripture/it is its own interpreter) that supports the meaning I derived. I gave you both Jewish and Christian understanding of what the passage means. You know better, therefore the discussion can go no further. I do not believe you are being reasonable. You want a literal/wooden meaning on everything. I do not look at Scripture in this way. I believe the context and other teachings on the same subject supply the meaning. I believe there is a literal and figurative language. There is meaning that needs an understanding of how the original audience of address understood the passage.  


I have no idea why you think I'm not answering whatever questions you are asking. I have no idea where life came from, how it started, why the universe is here, or if there's a why at all. That's my answer. I guess at least we're off the prophecy kick now that you've said it's not key to or even part of your belief process. Progress!


Therefore, your worldview is reductionistic. It can't make sense of these issues, which I have been claiming all along. It reduces existence to only a materialistic understanding which lacks what is necessary to make sense of your existence. Yet you argue over and over for its validation by refuting mine. You build your understanding on a house of cards or what the Bible calls sinking sand. The wind blows and it does not a have sufficient foundation for it to stand.


disgusted
disgusted's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,959
2
3
3
disgusted's avatar
disgusted
2
3
3
-->
@PGA2.0
Have you determined yet why the hole fits the puddle so perfectly?
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,006
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@PGA2.0
You have not definitively proven it false. You have skirted the issue in your own interpretation where you take the word "weeks" as a literal period of weeks instead of years. Thus, our discussion is over since you will not proceed further. 

"Weeks" = weeks. "Years" = years. If it meant years, it'd say years. 

How do you think the Jews of the first century thought about Daniel's prophecy? 
Do you think they were looking for a Messiah around this 1st-century period?
Don't know. I'd bet the jews of the first century had spent a lot of time looking for a messiah, so maybe, and what the jews of the first century thought about something that didn't happen as prophesied to them, I can't say. Nor can you. And nor does the bible. 

As it is, your prophecy, "Rome will destroy Jerusalem in 490 AD," does not in any way appear in the bible.
The concept of this judgment is presented in Daniel 9 and it is a concept that is presented in Deuteronomy 28 in the curses of disobedience. It is presented in many other OT passages
The "Concept of judgement" is not the same as "Rome will destroy Jerusalem in 490 AD." It's a concept, not a prophesy. A concept that did not require the bible at all. 

Please show me the biblical passage that says "Verily, o yea, the LORD thy God will undermine the very essence of the great Roman Eagle, the ECONOMY! A pair of messiahs will arrive on this day and say "Told thee so!" and then all of my children will move into heaven with Me." I presume that's in the bible somewhere, and not in a footnote, and I presume it's specific, like McIlroy's dad. 
Please list the passage you are referencing. 
You're the bible guy, I'm asking YOU to show me that passage, Is there a passage that says that, or anything like that?

First, George Springer was with the Astros in 2014 and a promising player. Although he was on the cover where did it prophesy he was to be the MVP? Second, the team was in a rebuilding in which they foresaw themselves as contenders in three years time. Where does the article say they would win 5-1
The AStros didn't write the article about themselves. And you're holding the AStros to a standard far above your JEsus. But this is exactly the reaction I suspected: if it's not your specific prophesy, regardless of any other aspect, it's not a real prophesy (you did the same thing with the McIlroy one, in fact invoking the very criticism Keith has about your own prophesy: that there would be a driving force TRYING to make the prophesy happen, this is what people say about retrofitting history to fit non-specific non-actionable prophesies). THe bottom line is that the article predicted something that had never happened before, years in the past, with such specificity that you could have bet on it. Why isn't it as impressive? Because it doesn't contain.,,well, what exactly? It contains exactly the same amount of Jesus. 
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,006
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@PGA2.0
I'll show you: if all life comes from life, where did Adam come from?
Creating by the eternal LIVING God --> life from the living.  
So where did the life in the LIVING god come from?
Again, I am speaking of all life that had a beginning. God, being without beginning nor end is excluded from such a definition. I asked you, "How can an eternal Being have a beginning to His life?"

Yeah, that's exactly special pleading. I have no reason to believe anything is eternal, I mean can you show me eternal anything? 

Again, it is your PRESUPPOSITION that He does not exist, not mine.
Would you say that you have a "presupposition" that leprechauns don't exist, and that in order to disbelieve in them, YOU have to go conclusively prove they don't? The correct way to do this, not to mention the best way to reduce your chances of getting fleeced by con men the world over, is to start with the neutral position and examine the demonstration and evidence. Otherwise you're going to buy a lot of snake oil. Please prove that lightning bolts don't come from Zeus. 

Therefore, your worldview is reductionistic. It can't make sense of these issues, which I have been claiming all along. It reduces existence to only a materialistic understanding which lacks what is necessary to make sense of your existence.
You aren't making sense of your existence either, and I'm not sure why, even if whatever my worldview being reductionistic means is true, that means it's wrong somehow. I'll give you this, at least you're consistent: every one of these arguments you're making is argument from incredulity, argument from authority and argument from special pleading / special knowledge. 
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@ludofl3x
You have not definitively proven it false. You have skirted the issue in your own interpretation where you take the word "weeks" as a literal period of weeks instead of years. Thus, our discussion is over since you will not proceed further. 

"Weeks" = weeks. "Years" = years. If it meant years, it'd say years. 
Okay, baby steps.

I want you to consider this truth - if God has revealed then His word will shed light on itself, God will provide the understanding. Do you understand that concept?

2 Peter 1:19-21 (NASB)
19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Scripture interprets Scripture. God is capable of making Himself known through His word. His word provides understanding.

From Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way.

The unfolding of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple.

[ Nun. ] Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.

 2 Timothy 2:15 
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

***

Now I want you to consider this, Daniel 9 reveals that Israel is already in captivity in Babylon for a period of seventy years.

in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. 

Daniel is partitioning God for mercy for his covenant people, Israel.

So I gave my attention to the Lord God to seek Him by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes. I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed and said, “Alas, O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and loving kindness for those who love Him and keep His commandments, we have sinned, committed iniquity, acted wickedly and rebelled, even turning aside from Your commandments and ordinances. Moreover, we have not listened to Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings, our princes, our fathers and all the people of the land.

So, the people have broken the covenant they agreed to with God and are receiving the curses spoken of in Deuteronomy 28. 

11 Indeed all Israel has transgressed Your law and turned aside, not obeying Your voice; so the curse has been poured out on us, along with the oath which is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, for we have sinned against Him.12 Thus He has confirmed His words which He had spoken against us and against our rulers who ruled us, to bring on us great calamity; for under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what was done to Jerusalem.

With the Babylonian captivity, Israel is experiencing God's wrath for their disobedience.

Do you understand this?

They are experiencing something that they have never before experienced under that covenant for their disobedience, per verse 12. I have provided Deuteronomy 28:15-55 with the underlined link so you can understand this curse of disobedience. Their whole heaven, their whole world is shattered, for nothing like this has ever been done to them since they agreed to the covenant.

Do you understand this teaching? 

PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@ludofl3x
Now I want to introduce you to another teaching, that God multiplies the curse sevenfold when the people do not repent. Thus, in Revelation, we see sevenfold judgments.

Do you understand this concept? Here it is in Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 26:

Deuteronomy 28:25 “The Lord shall cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you will go out one way against them, but you will flee seven ways before them, and you will be an example of terror to all the kingdoms of the earth.

Leviticus 26:18
If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

Leviticus 26:21
‘If then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins.

Leviticus 26:24
then I will act with hostility against you; and I, even I, will strike you seven times for your sins.

Leviticus 26:28
then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins.

Do you now understand the concept of seven times more punishment?

Do you understand that the word for "week" is translated as "seven"?

2 heptad or seven of years, late, Daniel 9:24,25,26,27 (twice in verse)
seven, week
Or shabuan {shaw-boo'-ah}; also (feminine) shbu.ah {sheb-oo-aw'}; properly, passive participle of shaba' as a denominative of sheba'; literal, sevened, i.e. A week (specifically, of years) -- seven, week.
see HEBREW 
shaba
'



Brown-Driver-Briggs
verb swear (probably, so to say, seven oneself, or bind oneself by seven things, compare Thes (as alternative), Gerb108ff; Late Hebrew Niph`al= Biblical Hebrew; 
***
see HEBREW sheba'
Strong's Concordance
sheba or shibah: seven

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
by sevenfold, teen
Or (masculine) shibrah {shib-aw'}; from shaba'; a primitive cardinal number; seven (as the sacred full one); also (adverbially) seven times; by implication, a week; by extension, an indefinite number -- (+ by) seven(-fold),-s, (-teen, -teenth), -th, times). Compare shib'anah.

***

Now I want to teach you another concept of why God's first period of cursing on Israel was 70 years and the one promised in Daniel 9:24 was 490 years. The Lord God wanted to teach the people that the seventh day as a day of rest and the seventh year as a year of rest for the fields so that the land could replenish itself. The seventh day and seventh year were holy to the Lord, the seventh day and the seventh year was to be a period of rest. 

Leviticus 25:1 The Lord then spoke to Moses at Mount Sinai, saying, 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When you come into the land which I shall give you, then the land shall have a sabbath to the Lord. 3 Six years you shall sow your field, and six years you shall prune your vineyard and gather in its crop, 4 but during the seventh year the land shall have a sabbath rest, a sabbath to the Lord



Leviticus 25:7-9 (NASB)
7 Even your cattle and the animals that are in your land shall have all its crops to eat.
8 ‘You are also to count off seven sabbaths of years for yourself, seven times seven years, so that you have the time of the seven sabbaths of years, namely, forty-nine years. 9 You shall then sound a ram’s horn abroad on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the day of atonement you shall sound a horn all through your land.

Remember a Sabbath is the seventh day. 

Israel had neglected the Sabbath rest for the land for seventy years, as we are told in Scripture. 

2 Chronicles 36:20-21 (NASB)
20 Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, 21 to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete.

So Daniel 9:24 is a sevenfold judgment after the seventy years are complete. Seventy more sevens of years would be given Israel until God brought in the New Covenant and ended the Old Covenant and the new Jubilee. 

***

Now more of the concept of a day for every year (besides 2 Chronicles 36:20-21):

Numbers 14:34
According to the number of days which you spied out the land, forty days, for every day you shall bear your guilt a year, even forty years, and you will know My opposition.

So God judged them for every day one year. 

Matthew 18:21-23 (NASB)
Forgiveness
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23 “For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.

So again, just like in Daniel 9:24 you have the forgiveness up to seventy sevens --> to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.


PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@ludofl3x

How do you think the Jews of the first century thought about Daniel's prophecy? 
Do you think they were looking for a Messiah around this 1st-century period?
Don't know.
That is the problem, you don't know yet and you don't want to know. You have no desire to understand how the audience of address, Daniel's people living under the Mosaic Covenant, would understand what was being said. I pointed out to you the Hebrew word can mean "seven" in this context yet it rolls off your back like water from a duck. I pointed out to you the principle of Sabbath rests Israel had neglected. I pointed out to you the curses of Deuteronomy for disobedience, which included the destruction of their land and city plus their exile from the land. I pointed out to you that they were already in captivity and God had given them another period in which to repent before judgment and then God would bring in the everlasting Jubilee. I pointed out to you that Revelation concerns Daniel 9:24 and its fulfillment, and Revelation is written to an Old Covenant people before Jerusalem fell in AD 70. It contains warnings in sevenfold judgments, as I pointed out to you in Leviticus 26. None of this is sinking in. You have blindfolds on because of your bias. 


I'd bet the jews of the first century had spent a lot of time looking for a messiah, so maybe, and what the jews of the first century thought about something that didn't happen as prophesied to them, I can't say. Nor can you. And nor does the bible.
But it did happen and can be reasonably shown to have happened. Josephus describes the fall of Jerusalem in great detail. He also puts the writing of Daniel to way before the Maccabee revolt. I have documented this before. 

I can demonstrate to a logical and reasonable degree. You have proven you are not interested. You have your own agenda because you don't want to hear. 
 

As it is, your prophecy, "Rome will destroy Jerusalem in 490 AD," does not in any way appear in the bible.
The concept of this judgment is presented in Daniel 9 and it is a concept that is presented in Deuteronomy 28 in the curses of disobedience. It is presented in many other OT passages
The "Concept of judgement" is not the same as "Rome will destroy Jerusalem in 490 AD." It's a concept, not a prophesy. A concept that did not require the bible at all.
But it is the same as the Romans but not in AD 490. I don't know where you get this date except perhaps that you made a mistake in what you wanted to convey.

PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@ludofl3x

You are wrong, it is a prophetic message that happened. Jerusalem was destroyed by Babylon and God promised once more that the temple and city would be destroyed. That did happen and it happened in AD 70. You cannot reasonably deny that it happened in AD 70. Not only was it prophesied here in Daniel but also in Deuteronomy 28 and expanded upon in the Olivet Discourse (which by the way Revelation is John's take on the Olivet Discourse). This can be thoroughly demonstrated. What is more, God's prescribed method of judgment is seen throughout the OT as by bringing one nation against another. I can draw parallel after parallel not only with Deuteronomy and Daniel but also Deuteronomy, Daniel and the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation. There are hundreds of parallels and fulfillment that are not a coincidence. 

Deuteronomy 28:25 “The Lord shall cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you will go out one way against them, but you will flee seven ways before them, and you will be an example of terror to all the kingdoms of the earth. 

Matthew 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 
21 For then there will be a great ribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.



For these Mosaic covenant people their peril would be the worst in their history, never again to be equaled. Their whole covenant would come to an end, their special relationship with God would be over and a new covenant made.

Deuteronomy 28:26 Your carcasses will be food to all birds of the sky and to the beasts of the earth, and there will be no one to frighten them away. 

Matthew 24:28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

Deuteronomy 28:32 Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, while your eyes look on and yearn for them continually; but there will be nothing you can do.

Deuteronomy 28:5The man who is refined and very delicate among you shall be hostile toward his brother and toward the wife he cherishes and toward the rest of his children who remain, 55 so that he will not give even one of them any of the flesh of his children which he will eat, since he has nothing else left, during the siege and the distress by which your enemy will oppress you in all your towns.
 
Matthew 10:21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
23 “But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

Deuteronomy 28:38 “You shall bring out much seed to the field but you will gather in little, for the locust will consume it. 39 You shall plant and cultivate vineyards, but you will neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes, for the worm will devour them. 40 You shall have olive trees throughout your territory but you will not anoint yourself with the oil, for your olives will drop off. 41 You shall have sons and daughters but they will not be yours, for they will go into captivity.

Revelation 9:3 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.


Deuteronomy 28:45 “So all these curses shall come on you and pursue you and overtake you until you are destroyed, because you would not obey the Lord your God by keeping His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you. 46 They shall become a sign and a wonder on you and your descendants forever.

Luke 21:20-24 (NASB)
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Deuteronomy 28:49 “The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as the eagle swoops down, a nation whose language you shall not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance who will have no respect for the old, nor show favor to the young.

The Roman emblem on their flag was an eagle. Many, many more comparisons between Roman and Scripture can be made. 

Deuteronomy 28:52 It shall besiege you in all your towns until your high and fortified walls in which you trusted come down throughout your land, and it shall besiege you in all your towns throughout your land which the Lord your God has given you.
This happened during the Jewish Roman wars leading up to and culminating in AD 70. 



PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@ludofl3x

Please show me the biblical passage that says "Verily, o yea, the LORD thy God will undermine the very essence of the great Roman Eagle, the ECONOMY! A pair of messiahs will arrive on this day and say "Told thee so!" and then all of my children will move into heaven with Me." I presume that's in the bible somewhere, and not in a footnote, and I presume it's specific, like McIlroy's dad. 
Please list the passage you are referencing. 
You're the bible guy, I'm asking YOU to show me that passage, Is there a passage that says that, or anything like that?
You made it up and you want me to find it. 


First, George Springer was with the Astros in 2014 and a promising player. Although he was on the cover where did it prophesy he was to be the MVP? Second, the team was in a rebuilding in which they foresaw themselves as contenders in three years time. Where does the article say they would win 5-1
The AStros didn't write the article about themselves. And you're holding the AStros to a standard far above your JEsus.
It was based on speculation and it came true. Big deal. Nowhere do I find it saying George Springer would be MVP. The writer is making a prediction because he likes both George Springer and the Astro's. He likes the way they are rebuilding so much he sticks his neck on the line predicting they will be World Series Champions and in 2017. Big deal.

But this is exactly the reaction I suspected: if it's not your specific prophesy, regardless of any other aspect, it's not a real prophesy (you did the same thing with the McIlroy one, in fact invoking the very criticism Keith has about your own prophesy: that there would be a driving force TRYING to make the prophesy happen, this is what people say about retrofitting history to fit non-specific non-actionable prophesies).
How can you manufacture a Messiah who would be born in Bethlehem and die on a cross, plus the 300 hundred more specific prophecies regarding Him?

How can you manufacture the destruction of the city and temple in AD 70?


THe bottom line is that the article predicted something that had never happened before, years in the past, with such specificity that you could have bet on it. Why isn't it as impressive? Because it doesn't contain.,,well, what exactly? It contains exactly the same amount of Jesus. 

Rubbish. The Astro nor McIlroy prediction is nowhere near as detailed as the hundreds of biblical prophecies. Anyone can get lucky with a few but try hundreds that predict not only the Messiah but specifics of judgment upon these Mosaic covenant people.

PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@ludofl3x
I'll show you: if all life comes from life, where did Adam come from?
Creating by the eternal LIVING God --> life from the living.  
So where did the life in the LIVING god come from?
Again, I am speaking of all life that had a beginning. God, being without beginning nor end is excluded from such a definition. I asked you, "How can an eternal Being have a beginning to His life?"

Yeah, that's exactly special pleading. I have no reason to believe anything is eternal, I mean can you show me eternal anything? 
Life having a beginning is common sense that is no longer so common by either creation or chance happenstance. Somehow life originated. You as a person [humanity in general; even all life that had a beginning] are most probably here for only a small number of reasons when you speak of origins.

As for special pleading, I am repeating what Scripture discloses about this God as being without beginning or end. The concept is reasonable that an omniscient, omnipresent, necessary Being would not owe His existence to anything else or else we have an infinite regress. If you say there is no cause for the universe or life then you run into only a small handful of scenarios one of which is an eternal necessary being or self-creation which I believe is impossible (you can't create yourself for you would have to exist to do so). 




Again, it is your PRESUPPOSITION that He does not exist, not mine.
Would you say that you have a "presupposition" that leprechauns don't exist, and that in order to disbelieve in them, YOU have to go conclusively prove they don't? The correct way to do this, not to mention the best way to reduce your chances of getting fleeced by con men the world over, is to start with the neutral position and examine the demonstration and evidence. Otherwise you're going to buy a lot of snake oil. Please prove that lightning bolts don't come from Zeus. 
Leprechauns are not probable from the evidence we have. God is. As I pointed out, there are only a couple of scenarios concerning origins and God makes sense. 

Also, you are not neutral. You build on either one or the other presuppositions concerning origins and life. If you exclude God we will look at how you possibly arrive at your conclusions. 


Therefore, your worldview is reductionistic. It can't make sense of these issues, which I have been claiming all along. It reduces existence to only a materialistic understanding which lacks what is necessary to make sense of your existence.
You aren't making sense of your existence either, and I'm not sure why, even if whatever my worldview being reductionistic means is true, that means it's wrong somehow. I'll give you this, at least you're consistent: every one of these arguments you're making is argument from incredulity, argument from authority and argument from special pleading / special knowledge. 

Sure I am making sense of it. From the living eternal God comes life. The necessary life is God. A life that begins must have an origin and the origin of all life in the universe is the living God. It is just common sense deduction. Please show me a life that does not originate from other life and how life would originate without God. We can then examine how plausible your scenario is.