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@secularmerlin
yes
Is it moral
Posts
Total:
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@Melcharaz
Then it was a mistake?
no, it was mercy. Mercy pardons and is freely given, whereas justice is strict and is demanded of all.
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@Melcharaz
What mercy, what pardon was given?
It was mercy and pardon directed to humanity. Humans were bound and enslaved to death through sin. A sacrifice was needed so that the wrath of God could be put away. This has reference to the pushing back of sin through the Offering and sending the Goat into the wilderness.
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@Melcharaz
Mercy pardons and is freely given
A sacrifice was needed
How can it be FREELY GIVEN when a SACRIFICE was NEEDED?
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@Melcharaz
So nothing is beyond the power of god except deciding to just "get over it," he needed a sacrifice? That always seemed strange to me, he makes the rules, he could have just changed them without all the torturing. Again, if it ever happened. I'm fascinated though, this is the first time I've ever heard a Christian (I'm presuming!) say that the sacrifice of Jesus was, in fact, an unjust act by what most consider to be the arbiter of perfect justice.
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@secularmerlin
Is this a religious question? Is that why it it is the religion forum?
If so, then shouldn't the question be - is it religiously moral- To punish someone for a crime they did not commit?
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@secularmerlin
Any supporters of Jesus clearly feel that in at least one instance punishing someone for a crime he did not commit was both moral and necessary.
Remind me, which one?
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@Tradesecret
I think I have answered this before. I think everyone on this planet believes that their morality is correct. Otherwise they would think otherwise.
Are there some who act in contradiction to their own standards and morals?
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@secularmerlin
Why don't we just cut to the heart of it then. How do people determine morality without god(s)?
That is why I questioned weather this was a religious question and is it in the correct forum.
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@ludofl3x
The question is simple. Is something moral because god says to do it, or is something moral independent of god's command?
No that is a strawman argument on behalf of someone else. That certainly was not the question. This IS the question:
Is It Moral ....To punish someone for a crime they did not commit? See post No1. Not a single mention of god
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@Stephen
Okay, thread police. I think it's pretty easy to see that as it's in the religion forum, the intended connection of the post to the Christian doctrine is pretty obvious. Making that connection leads to the question of divine command, which is where the poster, I figure, was headed. The obvious answer to the initial question is no, it isn't moral...which would then lead to "Then how is God's decision to punish all mankind forever and ever a moral decision?" My question on divine command is a question, not a straw man argument. Someone woke up with a bug up his ass today.
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@Melcharaz
Mercy and pardons both involve excusing punishment not punnishing the wrong person. When a governor pardons a criminal he dies not serve the criminals sentence in the criminals place. It was a sacrifice.no, it was mercy. Mercy pardons and is freely given, whereas justice is strict and is demanded of all.
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@Stephen
Any supporters of Jesus clearly feel that in at least one instance punishing someone for a crime he did not commit was both moral and necessary.Remind me, which one?
The ones that believe the crucifixion happened and was both moral and necessary.
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@Stephen
You may question what you like but you have brought a quote from a separate thread so I'm not sure it has anything to do with where this thread belongs.Why don't we just cut to the heart of it then. How do people determine morality without god(s)?That is why I questioned weather this was a religious question and is it in the correct forum.
simple, because the wrath of God needed to be appeased. Justice cannot just be swept under the rug. even if mercy is given, it is written "God is not mocked, whatever a man soweth, that shall he reap."
Of course it wasn't just. Jesus did nothing wrong. But to understand why it was needed and so important for God to not just "Forgive" you have to understand what sin is to God. he hates it. I mean really hates it. If you have sin, you are an enemy of God and deserve wrath and Justice would agree with that.
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@Melcharaz
because the wrath of God needed to be appeased. Justice cannot just be swept under the rug...
Is God incapable of appeasing his wrath in some other way? Is he incapable of making exceptions? If not, then the wrath is more powerful than God, as it compels him to behavior that you yourself say "wasn't just." If justice can't be swept under the rug, then how does committing an unjust act appease it? And if he is all powerful and can do literally anything, why can't he just say "eh, forget about it"?
you have to understand what sin is to God. he hates it. I mean really hates it.
Do you think when he created sin, he knew he'd hate it so much? I mean he did set up all the rules, according to Christian doctrine, right, so he defined sin in the first place. Either he created sin knowing he'd hate it (probably comports with the idea of an unjust god, creating a system he knew would work to send billions and billions of people to their eternal torture, knowing they'd be powerless against that system), or he didn't create sin and he hates it as a result. Except that makes him not omniscient (he's surprised by sin's existence and really hates it) and not omnipotent (because he didn't create it and therefore can't change its existence or any rules around it, now it's something over which he has no power?).
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@Melcharaz
Justice and mercy are mutually exclusive. Mercy is the excusing from punishment of the guilty while justice demands punishment of the guilty. Excusing the guilty while punishing the innocent is two acts of injustice not one act of justice and one act of mercy. This is tautologically true regardless of what you personally feel constitutes guilt/innocence.
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@ludofl3x
Abusers often ask their victims "Why do you make me hurt you?"why can't he just say "eh, forget about it"?
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@ludofl3x
Is God incapable of appeasing his wrath in some other way?
A very good question! in order for us to understand why a man had to die instead of goats and sheep and oxen like in the old testament, you have to understand the nature of sin, God and what animals lack compared to mankind.
Basically, Animals have a soul, but no spirit, they were made by the word of God, just like everything else except for 1 thing. Mankind. Man was made by God's own hands and had God's breath breathed into him and was made in his image. God is a spirit.
So it was not possible that animals who could not sin should take away sin from humans who chose to sin against the will of God. That's why a man had to be sacrificed, but not just any man, a sinless man. That way, the lord could express his wrath on that body for the sake of all humanity so that they wouldn't be bounded by sin nor by the demand of justice regarding sin. God before Christ winked at ignorance but now calls all men everywhere to repent of their sin. Why? because back then all were guilty of sin and God would only roll back the sin a year with the yearly sacrifice. But now that sin is sacrificed for, there is no need for anyone to be ignorant or for just the jews to have the chance for salvation.
Basically, Animals have a soul, but no spirit, they were made by the word of God, just like everything else except for 1 thing. Mankind. Man was made by God's own hands and had God's breath breathed into him and was made in his image. God is a spirit.So it was not possible that animals who could not sin should take away sin from humans who chose to sin against the will of God. That's why a man had to be sacrificed, but not just any man, a sinless man. That way, the lord could express his wrath on that body for the sake of all humanity so that they wouldn't be bounded by sin nor by the demand of justice regarding sin. God before Christ winked at ignorance but now calls all men everywhere to repent of their sin. Why? because back then all were guilty of sin and God would only roll back the sin a year with the yearly sacrifice. But now that sin is sacrificed for, there is no need for anyone to be ignorant or for just the jews to have the chance for salvation.
This is the claim not the evidence.
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@Melcharaz
So the answer to my question, does wrath control God or does God control wrath, seems to be the former, which makes God less than all powerful. Now you're telling me he needed to have people abuse animals to make himself feel better about setting up a system that he knew would backfire and make him angry all the time, that's not exactly a great look,
That's a large misunderstanding of what i just posted. Also it is evidence as it is backed by scripture. I wouldn't say animals were abused, simply sacrificed to roll back the sin for a year. God is not controlled by wrath, but justice demands that something pay for sin. Since God has mercy on his own creation, he was willing to kill sinless animals until the time of Christ where death and hell's ownership would be transferred to Jesus Christ.
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@Melcharaz
That's a large misunderstanding of what i just posted. Also it is evidence as it is backed by scripture. I wouldn't say animals were abused, simply sacrificed to roll back the sin for a year. God is not controlled by wrath, but justice demands that something pay for sin. Since God has mercy on his own creation, he was willing to kill sinless animals until the time of Christ where death and hell's ownership would be transferred to Jesus Christ.
I'm sorry, but none of this makes sense to me. Who controls or defines justice? If justice demands something, can god not change the definition of justice? Does god have to listen to the demand? Why set up a system wherein something sinless is killed for the act of something sinful? How on earth is that justice? Look at it this way: let's say you own a grocery store. That grocery store is robbed and the robber is caught. In order for you to forgive the robber, do you require him to go home, find his dog, slit the dog's throat and burn the dog's corpse in his driveway? Does the dead dog somehow play into your ability to forgive? Or, has justice been done, since the guy sacrificed his dog?
Wait, Jesus owns hell? WTF brand of Christianity is this??
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@Melcharaz
Also it is evidence as it is backed by scripture.
Not everything in scripture is accurate.
I wouldn't say animals were abused, simply sacrificed to roll back the sin for a year.
Lol, okay animal murder is not abuse when described by the Bible. How many animals do you sacrifice daily for your mistakes?
God is not controlled by wrath, but justice demands that something pay for sin.
This law is called Karma, or what Christians refer to as sowing and reaping. In this light, no animals are needed to punish, we simply reap what we sow through experience.
Since God has mercy on his own creation, he was willing to kill sinless animals until the time of Christ where death and hell's ownership would be transferred to Jesus Christ.
Or, the teaching of sacrificing animals is stupid, or better put not needed. Jesus came to uplift the consciousness of mankind, and because of ignorance and misconceptions Jesus was murdered. This is natural in a carnal environment.
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@EtrnlVw
Not everything in scripture is accurate.
Id argue against that, unless you are referring to translation errors, then i would agree, I hold that scripture is inerrant and flawless.
Lol, okay animal murder is not abuse when described by the Bible. How many animals do you sacrifice daily for your mistakes?
None.
This law is called Karma, or what Christians refer to as sowing and reaping. In this light, no animals are needed to punish, we simply reap what we sow.
Karma and reaping and sowing are not the same, especially when you enter eastern religion and philosophy. We do reap what we sow, the concept of animal sacrifice was to help keep us from being destroyed by the justice so we might have mercy. well, the jews anyways.
Or, the teaching of sacrificing animals is stupid, or better put not needed.
To assert that shows you don't understand the wrath of God against sin. Animal sacrifice rolled back the sin for a year other wise God would have destroyed the jews.
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@Melcharaz
I hold that scripture is inerrant and flawless.
BATS
To assert that shows you don't understand the wrath of God against sin
Whoa, god created sin. The way you describe your god he is schizophrenic.
I demand that you sacrifice me to me so that I can stop being angry at me for creating sin which I really hate me for.