Actually, we can’t afford not to build the Wall

Author: TheDredPriateRoberts

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Ramshutu
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And bingo. There we go. Let’s not get pedantic about a wall or a fence. Except of course when you want to win an argument. I’m glad you’ve agreed that the wall - as promised by Trump isn’t being built, and I’m glad you agree that what is being built is a fence - and does not appear to be substantially more impressive than the barrier already there.


Now, you seem to have exceptional difficultly actually wrapping your head around facts, because you’ve ignored it the last 3-4 times I’ve said this in my previous posts, and your now ignoring it again to make claims that are not factually true. Let’s spell it out, again, and hope that this time you actually pay some sort of acknowledgement to reality rather than simply pretending as if what you want to be true is actually true.

The “crisis”, is children and families arriving to claim asylum. They don’t appear to be tunneling under (pretty common and not
solved by a barrier), climbing over (not particularly difficult unless the barrier is much taller), or breaking through (which is likely doable in 5 minutes with a blow torch or angle grinder). In fact - they don’t appear to even be crossing the barrier....

what is happening, is that they are just wading over the rio grande - onto American soil - then finding CBP and legally claiming asylum - the CBP then let them through the gates in the fencing.

What will happen if Trump builds a wall, or a big beautiful fence; is that these individuals will walk through a completely different type of gate. Of course, you’ve ignored that point the last 4 or so times I’ve mentioned it, so I doubt you’ll address it this point.


Now, like the other times you’ve ignored the point to focus on your strawman - the focus on the barrier shows a profound lack of understanding of what’s actually happening at the border, who is crossing, why they are crossing, what are motivating factors - and instead are treating the barrier like a zombie barrier, ignoring consequences, issues, limitations, and nuance of the problems.

For example, on the one hand your “building the wall”, on the other hand your undermining the very reasons illegal immigration has been dropping from Mexico, with undermining the Mexican economy through nafta negotiations and tariffs. Your also ignoring the geopolitics of Central America, ignoring the ongoing destabilization both from the politics and the drugs that are being paid for by the US. This is not even going into the issues with corruption caused by western corporations, farming demands and markets of the Us that dictates the economics of farming - all of which serve to wholly destabilize the region.








The irrational focus on the symptoms, rather than the actual problems, is why a fence isn’t going to fix the problem in any meaningful sense, because of the confluence of other issues. Worse, the primary way to alleviate the problem is to work with and integrate policy with heavy Mexican involvement - a country who Trump has largely alienated with his rhetoric and trade policy.

And this is the issue: this profound lack of joined up thinking, and absurdly naive policy choices is either an unserious, or negligent attempt to fix the problem. Indeed, given the response, the whole policy is less about actual resolutions to actual problems and more about exploiting individual fears from racists, the economically isolated, and the generally gullible in order to win votes,






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@Greyparrot
yes their messages seem to be a lot of scare tactics, gloom and doom.  hadn't really thought about that.  If we don't do x people will die is the new motto that I hear.
Anything positive only involves illegals, entitlements and the lgbtqblahblah/trannies  even then it's so they don't die or prevent them form dying.  Obviously the death rate hasn't gone up or is statically different after the healthcare tax/mandate went away plus whatever else was done, otherwise they would be parading that all over the biased media.

this is why they oppose border security and for some they would remove it entirely.  What better group of people to manipulate and control then dirt poor immigrants, all they have to do is vote them into power.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
It's actually quite amusing. The left actually assumes you think the way they do with no nuance.

They truly believe in pedantics over nuanced policy solutions.

Personally, I think its an intellectual copout to go through life in black and white with no shades of grey. I could never afford to be that intellectually lazy.

Greyparrot
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Check out this website.


This group has been around for a LONG time. When the left lies to your face telling you that kids only come through the gates, you just ask them why this group is still around to pick up the skulls of dead kids in the desert.
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@Ramshutu
I’m glad you agree that what is being built is a fence - and does not appear to be substantially more impressive than the barrier already there.
looks far better than what was or wasn't there, looks substantially better imo, but it is an opinion after all isn't it.
as promised by Trump isn’t being built
do you only listen to the first things people say?  he said on video if they wanted to call it a fence with slats he was fine with that, which is what I saw in the pictures and video.  just sounds like semantics to me.

What will happen if Trump builds a wall, or a big beautiful fence; is that these individuals will walk through a completely different type of gate.
sure if that's an option to do so, but my understanding was to eliminate that possibility as much as they can.  I recall that in some areas nothing is needed because the terrain is a natural barrier.  Rome wasn't built in a day.
 why they are crossing, what are motivating factors
irrelevant, the law is clear.
oh no, make no mistake I have made posts before that if the countries the people were coming from were 'encourage' or otherwise supported to make changes and address their issues, that would give people less reason to risk their very lives to enter the U.S. illegally.  Not many want to do that and leave everything and everyone they have ever known.
Getting to the very heart of the issue, the countries they are coming from, has never afaik been a priority for any administration.  Which asks the question why not?

I think through political and economic/trade these countries could be 'persuaded' to make live better for their citizens, as they should.  guess I got off on a tangent there.
The irrational focus on the symptoms, rather than the actual problems,
that greatly describes many of the people who have been in power for many decades in our government.
the primary way to alleviate the problem is to work with and integrate policy with heavy Mexican involvement 
agreed, he should and it should have happened decades ago.

neither side seem or have seemed to be willing to address illegal immigration in all it's forms, in any meaningful way, and for the reasons I think we agree upon, you'd agree with that statement wouldn't you?

so what's left?  the promise of more border security in the form of physical barriers.  that is why I said "Because of the political climate we are at a point on border security where it's all or nothing."

no one is offering any other options that I know of, or it's not being covered by the media.
What better choice can I get on board with and who is proposing it with any seriousness and support?  Even if the barriers are being built that doesn't mean the other things we talked about, the other ways people are in the country illegally can't be addressed as well, and yet........

do you understand why the fact that he is at least doing something is why people support it?  vs. the nothing that has been done for decades.




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@Greyparrot
probably same kind of people who feel personal guilt for slavery.  it's not a choice I would make, helping illegals vs homeless citizens etc, but it is a free country after all.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I really don't care about stockholm syndrome groups like that. It's just ridiculous to claim this group does nothing while all kids are brought to the gates.
It's like you have to have something turned off in your brain to allow that logic to take root.
Ramshutu
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
do you only listen to the first things people say?  he said on video if they wanted to call it a fence with slats he was fine with that, which is what I saw in the pictures and video.  just sounds like semantics to me.
Let’s ignore for the moment that you pilloried Chuck Schumer for what he said originally, it wasn’t the first thing he said. It was the first, second, third - in fact it was probably the only thing he said for nearly 3 and a half years give or take. He even got suggestions and prototypes with specs, and requirements.

The reason it’s not being built is primarily because it’s untenable to do so, and now he’s gone from building a wall over the entire southern border, that will be easier and that Mexico will pay for - to building a marginally better fence than already exists in some locations.

sure if that's an option to do so, but my understanding was to eliminate that possibility as much as they can
You seem to not understand the problem. The problem is that people are able to cross the boarder into the US as the wall is not on the border. As a
result, these individuals can legally claim asylum, leading to the 13,000 individuals in custody. 

IE: the wall doesn’t solve that problem, as the individuals are detained from the other side.

irrelevant, the law is clear.
Pray tell. On what grounds do you think that asking what are the background motivating and precipitating factors that has caused many individuals to risk their lives in order to break the law crossing into the US is irrelevant to “how do we stop so many individuals breaking the law”?

Of course it’s relevant - it’s literally the key to understanding the whole crisis and the best way of mitigating the entire problem you have been going on about for 6 pages.







But of course what do I know, I’ve only been replying with details, facts, analysis of the geopolitics and the key factors that are driving the factors, as well as detail of the impact of other policy factors have on the problem - whilst you and the rest of your brethren here ignore all these details to propagate a singular naive solution - Apparently this means I have no nuance!

agreed, he should and it should have happened decades ago.
And it has - One of the biggest factors - and a primary driver of the net negative migration of Mexicans, is NAFTA and the Mexican Economy. There is a reason why there doesn’t need to be a border wall between the US and Canada - because people generally don’t want to leave their home and risk the money they have left, if they don’t have some compelling reason to do so.

But really, thats the issue - if pay attention to the migrants, the driving factors and the strength of motivation - you start realizing, as I have explained with the details above,  that mitigating it with a barrier isn’t practical or economical.
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I can't believe he admitted that Trump was improving the physical border barrier. Maybe he is sick today.
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@Ramshutu
that mitigating it with a barrier isn’t practical or economical.
I'm not arguing that it is, I've plainly said it's and either or, either something is done, which I think we agree there are far more effective and better ways, better for the immigrants as well, a win, win, or nothing at all gets done worth a darn like in administrations past.

the funny part is I have been basically saying what you did for a while, fix the reason people risk their lives and their children and they won't do that, pretty simple concept, probably difficult to enact but it's something that should have been worked towards long ago.  While it still can be it won't happen with the current political climate and it won't happen if a democratic president is elected, in fact I think things will be worse if one is elected, but that's a different topic I guess.
Obviously we do need barriers and security if for nothing else to hopefully minimize the drug and child trafficking but that too is another subject.

our preferred priorities are very similar I think, I just haven't heard any of those being an option right now :(

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@Greyparrot
Obama’s DHS Secretary: ‘We are truly in a crisis’ at the border"

Jeh Johnson



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@TheDredPriateRoberts

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@Analgesic.Spectre
Can we address one topic at a time? I simply don't have the time to address 40 points across two different threads. I also don't feel like we're getting anywhere, because we disagree on fundamental things. I'd be happy to address all the points you've made eventually, but it's like a tangent-a-thon at the moment lol.
- Not a problem. At your leisure ;-)