The devil.

You have a lot to learn if you think God is not measurable.

And how does one go about this measuring? 

Are you willing to be considered insane by people close to you at first? I am not saying you will but the journey will involve you feeling insane and needing to keep secrets. You will literally be contacting alien demigods.

I'm  not even sure that our universe really exists but if we assume that it does then we can also assume that gravity is real. We can assume this because objects fall at a constant and uniform rate of acceleration whether I believe in gravity or not. Is your evidence independently verifiable whether I begin with the presupposition that some god(s) exist in the way that gravity is?

No, God enjoys to toy with you and make you question if she's real, she's quite the sadist.

Also, gravity is a lie and NASA is involved in an arrangement with the alien demigods. We are pulled down in a flat earth model because of something coded into the simulation that we are experiencing but it's not based on mass at all.

And how have you determined that?

PM me for more info, I am not going to get trolled to a public humiliation session.

Lol

Hello ethang5, glad you are enjoying the thread.

Hello ethang5, glad you are enjoying the thread.

You and RM are always worth the gate fee. Thanks.

You are perfectly welcome my friend. 

The devil could in fact exist as some being or some renegade soul who rebelled, but it's much more reasonable to consider the "devil" in scripture as representative of the negative forces and what we contend with in the worlds of duality where good and evil have relevance. Even if the devil exists, one can still interchange this idea with the devil being representative of the negative side of creation in all respects. Just like one should correctly interpret Adam and Eve as being representative of mankind and not just two people that happened to disobey God.

It has no effect on the world to understand it, rather it effects the world whether or not we understand it. Negative forces exist both in this realm and beyond and it's advanced through vessels and agendas it effects our world every day why would anyone deny that negative forces exist?

Nothing is inherently evil, rather the negative side of polarity gains traction through creation, through perceptions and desires which manifests itself through beings. 

Negative and positive in the context you are using them in are subjective terms. What seems like a negative to you may seem like a positive to me. What standard are we using to determine one from the pther?

Why need we distinguish what we believe is negative for the fact of the matter to exist? I would say a negative is causing harm to the self and to others in any way, sure we can argue all day about what that entails but lets keep it simple so we can progress for a change. 

That along with promoting wellbeing is actually my subjective standard of choice with the wellbeing of humans first followed by wellbeing in general.

Do you believe this manifestation to have independent agency?

Not necessarily though I never discount that there is a "devil" that may in fact exist, which is why we as individuals are totally responsible for the choices we pursue and the decisions we make. If we begin to blame experiences on some "devil" out there somewhere reeking havoc on creation then the line between consequences, personal accountability and blaming become blurred. That's why it's more reasonable to conclude the "devil" is a universal phenomenon that can related as the negative forces not some entity roaming loose and causing everything that's perceived as negative. Though higher states of reality and spiritual beings can influence the souls in the lower worlds its all in line with what the individual is operating in, their thoughts, intensions, desires and actions....but they can be manipulated for the use of a higher purpose or goal, likewise the same for the positive forces.

I could go along with that, only I would add that to every aspect of the human experience including the body, mind, emotions and soul/spirit. The influence to harm any one of those aspects is what I would consider a negative. The opposite it true for positive, that we would enhance and aid any one of those aspects of the human nature.  

Body mind and emotions sure but I have yet to have a coherent definition of soul/spirit.

the nonphysical part of a person which is the seat of emotions and character; the soul.

the principle of conscious life; the vital principle in humans, animating the body or mediating between body and soul.

What is INCOHERENT about those definitions?

And to add, it's not incoherence rather it's your beliefs and worldview that might make it a hard reality for you to accept. That's not incoherence Secular, that's called opinions. If you don't wish to accept that souls do in fact exist even though there is ample evidence, then say so, don't claim the nature of the soul/spirit and its definitions are incoherent, two different things. 

The idea of a nonphysical thing is what seems incoherent to me. What is a nonphysical thing? Even electromagnetism is a measurable part of the physical universe.

More importantly how do we detect a nonphysical thing?

It's not "non-physical" in the sense nothing exists....it just distinguishes between what we perceive in the material senses only and that which we are potentially capable of experiencing through acquiring knowledge and exercising spiritual practices, the inner experience not only the outer experience. The reason consciousness, the soul and spirit are labeled as "non-physical" is because the nature of such was not created by a physical medium (matter) rather a conscious medium, there was never a time where the material construct created consciousness, instead it was first a conscious reality that created matter, which enabled consciousness/soul to experience through. The difference lies in the perception of what consciousness is by nature.....which is the difference between materialist/atheism and Theism.....was consciousness created by matter? or is conscious awareness manifesting matter and forms? only one can be correct and only one is superior than the other and I believe that the superior reality is Theism, that conscious intelligence was never produced by a non-intelligent blob of matter. Rather matter and forms evolved precisely as consciousness/intelligence dictated just as quantum physics suggests in all practical terms. There was first a conscious reality....which is not necessarily non-physical rather not a product of physical matter, but energy is always present with conscious activity. You spread awareness over an omnipresent reality you have significant energy present, and this awareness channels that energy into forms that we see in the physical universe.

If these nonphysical forces/objects can only be observed through internalized practices how do you independently verify that it is a part of our shared reality?

Through cross referencing obviously, in which there is more than a warehouse full of references to say the least. Hope that helps but I doubt it.

It would help if virtually every claim about the supernatural wasn't different from virtually every other.

Let's use me as an example. I once believed that I could communicate with trees. Do you believe I was communicating with trees or that I was talking to my self and projecting onto trees?

Why are variations from a dynamic reality a problem? especially with so many references? however, your claim is false, it's various but as well there are many commonalities, they are not all different that is not true which is why I created the topic in DDO about NDE's....

Trees have awareness, at some level you can actually connect with them consciously because they come out of the universal mind of the Creator, and trees have living quality, therefore able to connect with them at some level.

Do you communicate with trees?