not just a bad person problem - a gun problem

Author: n8nrgmi

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Snoopy
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@TheRealNihilist
I mean, the person you are talking to obviously has their own perspective, maybe they are bonkers or maybe it lends something to them and they really could be pointing out the challenging approach you are taking to a problem that potentially inhibits one from mounting over a learning curve.  Its really meant to be more of a rhetorical question, but your thoughts would be appreciated none the less
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@Greyparrot
Do you support a nation with a dominant culture encompassing many ethnic groups?
Okay, if I understand correctly, this is impossible, because there would no longer be ethnic groups.  Essentially you are talking about an ethnostate, but technically the heritage is still there even though its probably irrelevant, a reason being that its not lending to the formation of culture.  

  I am supportive of a federal government spanning over legally united states and I find multicultural tendencies qualify according to my morals and understanding of the world I live in.  I am not supportive of the formation of ethnostates within the United States, or a most unfortunate event of such ambitions towards the entirety of the American populous.  I am generally supportive of people being able to form and reform government, not closed off at all to people having representation in jurisdiction with their culture, ie changing boarders,  joining the United States or appealing to part ways.

TheDredPriateRoberts
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@TheRealNihilist
tell ya want, find out how many felons were caught by the NICS check for trying to buy a gun then see how many were actually prosecuted.
now after you do that, look up how may straw purchasers have been caught, their punishment, then weed out the straw purchaser that purchased guns used in murders and see their punishment.
then let us know if you think the laws and punishments are stringent enough, enforced consistently enough and the punishment is strong enough.
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@Snoopy
Okay, if I understand correctly, this is impossible, because there would no longer be ethnic groups.  Essentially you are talking about an ethnostate, but technically the heritage is still there even though its probably irrelevant, a reason being that its not lending to the formation of culture.  


No. This is supposed to separate the ethnic racists who somehow believe the junk science that DNA dictates a person's inclusion into a culture, or exclusion from a culture from the people who understand that a dominant culture, in whatever form, is not DNA dependant.

Culture has zero to do with DNA, and it's painfully obvious from the responders in this thread that they disagree. 

It's really disheartening to me to see that the education system is either proactively teaching this junk racism, or supporting it by tacit omissions.
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so i see a lot of verbiage in this thread, but not one post that tries to explain the issue posed in the opening post. that is, gun v non gun homicide comparisons. 
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@n8nrgmi
Do you want to discuss the problem of guns, or the relationships guns may have in the problem of homicide?  
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So ways of Making a " BAD " person a " GOOD " person?

Then this talk about bad people with guns will be betterer.




The only way to stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a bad gun.
No, the only way to stop a bad person with a gun is to say hey. Hey mate, what are you up too?. 
No the only way to stop a bad person having a gun is to have extensive daily health checks on everyone's mental stability before handling their guns, DAILY...

No no, the only way to stop a bad person with a gun is to have an old lady fall over in front of the bad person with a gun, and then the bad person with the gun simply helping the old person up off the road thus making them a good person ( time to be discussed into history )   and in turn a bad person into a good person, I've gone too far hey?

Nowell then the only way to stop a bad guy getting in a good guys hand is to ummmmmm.

Look I'm going to pass.

Also In the year 2630  2633 they don't have these old guns that go BANGGGGGGGGGGGG REAL LOUD things.
And every "gun" that gets shot is like reported. 
Hang on, 
Hang on.
Then everyone is just going to make themselves the guns that go bang again and get around it. 

Making a bad a good person,  

( Maybe have a Tickle a bad guy day. )






.


TheRealNihilist
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
tell ya want, find out how many felons were caught by the NICS check for trying to buy a gun then see how many were actually prosecuted.
now after you do that, look up how may straw purchasers have been caught, their punishment, then weed out the straw purchaser that purchased guns used in murders and see their punishment.
then let us know if you think the laws and punishments are stringent enough, enforced consistently enough and the punishment is strong enough.
Why can't you show me the data? This is too specific for you to not have data for this. Besides you get to also pick the best one that delivers your point. 

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@Snoopy
I mean, the person you are talking to obviously has their own perspective, maybe they are bonkers or maybe it lends something to them and they really could be pointing out the challenging approach you are taking to a problem that potentially inhibits one from mounting over a learning curve.  Its really meant to be more of a rhetorical question, but your thoughts would be appreciated none the less
"Mounting over a learning curve" I still don't know what you mean here but I will still try to give a response.

Greyparrot is not what I would consider a racist at the moment but is really susceptible of it. If he actually defined what he meant by culture and what are the best cultures than he would understand what would be the conclusion of his train of thought. When you go around saying they don't value education 2 parents households you tend to devalue the difference they had in lives. A black person can't just wake up and have those ideas in mind and I think Greyparrot agrees with the you can't "buy" culture. So basically when he typed "Since we cant deport the competing cultures" it made me think of him in such a negative light. This would look worse if I was able to press on him what definitions he uses but guess not. Basically I would consider him on his way on the far-right since he already holds the view that it is the cultures fault and specifically cultures which do not support 2 parent families and education. I think you would have to be living under a rock if you missed how this is representative of the blacks. Now think to yourself why didn't he just say black culture or poor black culture is like this? Is it because he wants to make his point sound more reasonable than it actually says? I think so but guess you can decide as well.  

My problem also is that he states many descriptive statements but hardly any prescriptive statements. Even then they are not specific enough of the issue. He doesn't even want to define his own words like tribalism or culture which means either he is arguing in bad faith and actually is a racist or he genuinely thought he gave a good enough response. This would be a false dichotomy but I will only represent the most important scenarios he might be in. 1 can be ignorance and can be improved upon in a good direction but the other can completely reek of bad faith actors. I don't want to speak to him about something a far-right person would advocate for but he is definitely on the way there. 
Hopefully this answers what you are looking for. 
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@TheRealNihilist
You've already demonstrated that you are one of those trash talking race baiters conflating culture with the DNA of a person.

Indoctrinated racism of the worst kind, probably shoved down your throat by a liberal critical race theorist. Doesn't surprise me at all that you conflate any issue you see with DNA or skin color. Jussee must be your hero for being the king of all race baiters, and you would love to shower him with socially justified awards. 

Disgusting. The country is sick of your racism, and 2020 will be a referendum on it.

TheRealNihilist
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@Greyparrot
Indoctrinated racism of the worst kind, probably shoved down your throat by a liberal critical race theorist. Doesn't surprise me at all that you conflate any issue you see with DNA or skin color. Jussee must be your hero for being the king of all race baiters, and you would love to shower him with socially justified awards.
Oh so you are a conservative?
Don't have me stop you from being what you will become.
If you are on this site when you become associated with the far-right do tell. I would love to know how much you agree with them. Just change a few words around and in my opinion you have got the most important idea to be apart of the far-right. 
Jussie is an awful person. Lied about what he did and got away with it. No reasonable left-winger takes the position he is some sort of hero. 
"Socially justified"? You are using social justice in defending yourself. Do come back to me when you actually understand what you are saying. 
TheDredPriateRoberts
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@TheRealNihilist
because as I have said this has all been posted before, besides if you do the work and find the information yourself, it means more to you.  Form your own opinion with your own knowledge rather than be spoon fed.  From the research I have done, it has shown me that the punishments are far to lax, often these attempt at illegal purchase aren't prosecuted.
Here I'll help you out a tad, remember the muslim husband and wife who committed the mass murder in California?  they got their guns via straw purchase.  Research what happened to the person who illegally purchased the guns for them.

There's another but I don't recall the name, should be easy enough for you to find.  Girlfriend buys her boyfriend a gun, knowing he's a felon and can't possess one, he uses the gun and kills some people.  Again see what kind of punishment she received.

once you do that tell me what you think of those and if you don't believe those are typical explain why.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Form your own opinion with your own knowledge rather than be spoon fed.  From the research I have done, it has shown me that the punishments are far to lax, often these attempt at illegal purchase aren't prosecuted.
So basically you want me to find evidence. Don't you see how your side is lacking? Without evidence you are only making claims you can't support.
Here I'll help you out a tad, remember the muslim husband and wife who committed the mass murder in California?  they got their guns via straw purchase.  Research what happened to the person who illegally purchased the guns for them.
That is one example but then you would have to say if the straw purchase is too lenient for what it is now.
There's another but I don't recall the name, should be easy enough for you to find.  Girlfriend buys her boyfriend a gun, knowing he's a felon and can't possess one, he uses the gun and kills some people.  Again see what kind of punishment she received.
A second of example of laxed gun laws right? 
once you do that tell me what you think of those and if you don't believe those are typical explain why.
Why can't you give me the information? I might look at the wrong source with the wrong information and go with the wrong position but if I see your data I will be able to know this is from you and take it that you have studied this. 
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@Greyparrot
You've already demonstrated that you are one of those trash talking race baiters conflating culture with the DNA of a person.
they can't see the forest for the trees.

there's a rap "culture" which isn't color specific or color unique as one of hundreds of examples.  your going to have to dumb it down a lot more if you want them to understand what you are talking about....obviously.
people with strong common bonds and interests tend to stick together regardless of x  and so long as these groups aren't negatively impacted or threat of by other groups all is well, however when clashes or potential of happen.....here we are.  People for the most part just want to be left alone.

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@TheRealNihilist
here read these 

can you guess which one is me?


blood-alcohol content of 0.23 percent, according to the prosecutor"s office, which is nearly three times the legal limit.
When an officer approached the car, Waldron pointed a gun at him, authorities said. The standoff that ensued ended when Waldron shot himself in the upper leg and slumped out of the car, officials said.
pleaded no contest to four charges: felony assault and battery of a law enforcement officer, DUI, reckless handling of a gun and brandishing a firearm.
On Monday, he was sentenced to a total of eight years, with all but six months and 20 days suspended
The active sentence reflects a mandatory minimum of six months on the assault charge and a mandatory 20 days on the DUI.

tell me again how more laws will help....I'm listening.

amazing what you can find these days, you need more? ok fine

Man Accused of Buying Guns Used in San Bernardino Shooting Pleads Not Guilty
maximum of 25 years, still not sentenced yet afaik

Former Douglas County sheriff’s deputy headed to jail for buying felon boyfriend gun to protect his marijuana business



how's that?  satisfied?

TheRealNihilist
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
can you guess which one is me?
I am guessing you are Zombieguy1987 
Those arguments were not really that good but do tell me who you are so I can pluck holes in your arguments.
What do you value the most before I am correct or wrong on those being bad arguments? 
More specifically safety or freedom? 
multiple studies have been done about fatherless homes, unwed mothers, high school drop out rates etc,
Oof. Do you still stand by that? I want to talk about it. If you do can you elaborate before I state things?

About your comments after this. Do you agree that they are anecdotes and you would require a more comprehensive study showing it to be a trend rather than exception to the rule? 

2 views no evidence to back that up? I am sure you can do better than this. I know I did say I will not specifically talk about your anecdotes but I wanted to make an exception. 
how's that?  satisfied?
Yeah sure. 
n8nrgmi
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@Snoopy
the issue i want addressed is what i posed in the opening post. why are gun homicides wildly out of whack with the rest of the world in the usa, but non gun homicides not wildly out of whack? if all the murder are just bad guys being bad guys and guns have no influence on whether a murder occurs, why aren't non gun homicides wildly out of whack too? 

here is the graph since it doesn't always clearly show up in the links i posted. 
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"As for Friedman’s claim that keeping a gun out of someone’s hands won’t disincline them to commit murder, Cukier said, “The evidence doesn’t support that. Look at the numbers.” She went on to analyze homicide statistics from 2016: “If you look at the rate of murders not caused by guns and you compare Canadathe U.S.the U.K., and Australia, what you see is that it’s roughly the same in all four countries, although the U.S. rate is slightly higher,” Cukier said. In other words, in a scenario without guns, the four populations exhibit roughly similar rates of homicidal behavior.
That changes when you look at the rate of murders that were caused by guns. “As soon as you add guns into the mix, you see that the U.S. has six times the rate of gun murders as Canada has. And Canada has 15 times the rate of gun murders as the U.K., and four times the rate of Australia. It’s very clear that the difference in the murder rates between those countries is a function of the availability of firearms, period.” "

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@TheRealNihilist
good guess, but no not him, moving on

safety or freedom? 
there are few places more safe than solitary confinement in prison, think I'd rather take my chances and enjoy freedom, how about you?
Palace servants and the like enjoy the protection of guards etc, yet they are/were slaves.

in the U.K. they maybe safer from gun crimes, maybe, however
On the rise: Statistics show an increase in knifepoint robberies, bicycle thefts and pickpocketing 
The number of violent crimes and sex offences recorded by police in England and Wales has risen sharply over the past year, figures suggest.


back on topic, what study have you shown that guns are the problem exactly?  as the number of guns in the U.S. goes up, crime goes down, seems rather conflicting doesn't it?  Crimes have been going down for a while (there's always spikes in everything so lets not go there) though gun sales skyrocketed when the best gun salesman was in office for 8 years.  How do you square those circles?

if guns were the problem as the op suggests then logically if you have more of them crime should also increase and yet....
TheRealNihilist
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there are few places more safe than solitary confinement in prison, think I'd rather take my chances and enjoy freedom, how about you?
I rather be safe than be so free that I someone can murder me on a whim. How about you?
9% increase in burglaries? I rather be robbed than murdered. How about you?
The number of violent crimes and sex offences recorded by police in England and Wales has risen sharply over the past year, figures suggest.
Tell me how this would not be worse if they had guns. 1 shot to the head in most cases is an instant death and can be shot in a much larger range. A gun can also kill a lot more people which is why people in war use guns instead of knifes to kill people.

I am sorry was guns banned this year or last year in the UK? Oh wait they weren't so I don't see how bringing in UK actually helps your case. Instead it really shows how little effort you put into actually doing research. Here is a wikipedia thread about firearm policy in the UK. Key detail is 1996.
back on topic, what study have you shown that guns are the problem exactly? 
Look how high the United States are.
I would say the problem is wealth inequality but the access of guns just leaves way too much for poor people to actually commit crimes to get by. I never said guns were the problem but it seems like you think that if guns were in the UK for some reason the stats for violence would be lower. Do you actually think that?
as the number of guns in the U.S. goes up, crime goes down, seems rather conflicting doesn't it?
"According to Pew, about two-thirds of gun owners have multiple guns. That's how you end up in a country where there's about a gun per person, even though only a third or less of people actually own guns themselves."



TheDredPriateRoberts
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@n8nrgmi
comparisons of the U.S. with other countries, especially Australia is apples and bricks

it's an Island for starters, anyway far too many physical and cultural difference for any kind of serious comparison.  Australia never had a gun crime issue either pre or post ban, they were never all that interested in killing each other for whatever reason.
I would also draw your attention to post #50 towards the bottom.

It’s very clear that the difference in the murder rates between those countries is a function of the availability of firearms, period.” "
It's very clear that we don't know if those murders wouldn't have happened anyway with a different tool, it is a function of a willingness to murder.  Prove me wrong.


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@TheDredPriateRoberts

you still haven't explained it. here is the graph

why are gun homicides wildly out of whack, but not non gun homicides? you say i haven't proven guns cause problems, but i dont see any other way around that graph. 
TheRealNihilist
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@n8nrgmi
I think he is unwilling to admit that he is wrong.
My last comment showed that he is using the UK as an example of what would happen if there was no guns. The thing is guns were outlawed in 1996 and this spike occured last year I think. 
It just seems like to me he is making excuses. 
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also if you look at the long laundry list of things that go up with increased guns, it's hard to deny it. police shooting people, police being shot, women being shot, anyone owning a gun getting shot, etc etc. if there was just one factor that went up with increased guns, that's one thing. but there's tons of studies that show different factors getting out of whack. 

you just choose to ignore it all. but that's on you. 

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you aren't more likely to be mugged in the usa, but you are more likely to be mugged and shot in the process. again a gun problem. 
you aren't more likely to find people who are mentally ill in the usa, but you are more likely to find people with easy access to guns. again a gun problem. not a mental health problem like conservatives say. 

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-where there is more gun control, there is less murder. this is the scientific consensus, as shown with the literature review. being a literature review makes this a lot more informing than just being a single study; we see the consensus forming. also included is a link to a poll of scientists but a literature review itself makes the claims even stronger.
-where there are more guns, there is more murder, across geographic regions from localities and larger. this is also a lot more informing because it a literature review of lots of studies. what's more, people are shown not to kill with other weopons instead of guns, as is often argued, because if they did there would be no correlation here.
-women are five times more likely to be killed if their significant other has a gun. this is a practical point in illustration of the guns v murders correlation. same in individual lives as general trends
-you are more likely to be murdered if you have a gun, as well as those close to you
-States with more gun control have fewer mass shootings
-only around two hundred and fifty killings are done in the name of self defense per year. people like to pretend defense is such a huge thing, but the odds of being murdered is is closer to forty times higher. the odds of being shot and not necessarily killed are upwards of four hundred times higher. 
-we have half the worlds guns in the usa but a small percent of the worlds population
-Police are more likely to kill unjustifiably in low gun control and high gun areas due to their increased fear, and police are more likely to be shot themselves in those areas.
-Compared to 22 other high-income nations, the United States' gun-related murder rate is 25 times higher. 
-High school kids in the USA are eighty two times more likely to be shot than the same kids in other developed countries.
-it is claimed that most murders are gang related, but this looks to be factually incorrect in the link. even if higher numbers floating around on the internet are true, our murder problem still there if you take out the gang murders from consideration. the numbers here can be arrived at with basic math. 
-this really isn't just a mental health problem. we don't have more people with mental health problems than other countries.... just more people with guns.  the study controls for mental health factors v other factors. 
-we dont have more crime than the rest of the world, just a lot more people getting shot and killed. you aren't more likely to be mugged here, for instance, but you are more likely to be mugged and shot in the process. again a gun problem. showing it's not just deviants being deviants as some suggest but an emphasis on the gun problem.
-You can tell this is a gun problem, not just a bad person problem as the gun lobby says, also by comparing non-gun homicides of similar countries as the USA, and then adding guns to the mix: non-gun homicides are slightly on the higher side but within normal range, while gun homicides go wildly higher. If this was a bad person problem at its core, there would be a wildly higher amount of non-gun homicides as well, but that's not the case. Included is an article describing this phenomenon and a link with a picture. 
https://i.imgur.com/skcT8qr.png
-people like to say assault rifles are not that dangerous, because there are only a few hundred murders with them per year out of only around ten or so thousand of gun murders. the thing is though, the percent chance an assault rifle will be used to kill someone is significantly higher than the chance other guns will be used to kill someone. 


TheDredPriateRoberts
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@n8nrgmi
tell me why people kill each other, commit mass murders including bombs, the one common factor regardless of the way,tool,reason or number of people killed is......the individual.  If you could magically wave a wand and prevent all murders, guns would be a non factor.  so this claim that guns are the problem just doesn't add up, plus the other reasons I stated.  Perhaps there are more people who have no regard for the life of others in the U.S. than other countries, which would be a societal issue I guess.  Perhaps other countries have better mental health, less bullying, fatherless and broken homes?  
What drives someone to kill, just because they posses a gun?  I don't think so.  The U.S. has a lot more serial killers too which some of the worst didn't use guns
Why is the serial killer rate so "out of whack"?

you aren't more likely to be mugged in the usa
now that's an interesting statement, why do you think that is?  and what are the stats of someone being mugged, complying with the robber and being killed anyway?  of those killed after complying what was the method, did they know each other etc?  hhmmm

how much are the murder rates affected if you take out the terrorist like the mass murder in California and Orlando, or illegal criminal aliens?

how does the homeless rate compare to other countries which are always tried to use a valid comparison, drug and gang numbers too.

anyway seems like plenty of things to consider than the overly simplistic guns are the problem.

--> @n8nrgmi

the point is, often you just exchange one set of problems for another, pick your poison, it was a response to your "safety vs freedom" question.
 




TheDredPriateRoberts
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@n8nrgmi
-people like to say assault rifles are not that dangerous, because there are only a few hundred murders with them per year out of only around ten or so thousand of gun murders. the thing is though, the percent chance an assault rifle will be used to kill someone is significantly higher than the chance other guns will be used to kill someone. 
check fbi stats, more people are killed by handguns you don't know wtf you are even talking about.

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what is the worst mass murder in U.S. history?  do you know?  anybody?  anyone?  Beuler, beuler
n8nrgmi
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
do you want me to keep asking until you answer it, or admit you have no answer?

you still haven't explained it. here is the graph

why are gun homicides wildly out of whack, but not non gun homicides? you say i haven't proven guns cause problems, but i dont see any other way around that graph.